Is this shit for real?

Try this:
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5623-2004May5.html

Or this one:
drudgereport.com/

Thank you, Army reservists and Army Intelligence officers.  You lost us THE FUCKING WAR!!!

Here ya go

Quoted: Quoted: Thank you, Army reservists and Army Intelligence officers.  You lost us THE FUCKING WAR!!! Yup

no kidding, what a bunch of royal fuckups

A court marshall is not good enough for these people.

If these are genuine, the perps need an asswhoopin.  

I dont give a crap about the prisoners, its more of the international fall out from this shit.

Its gonna give Kerry more ammo, as well as the damn leftists.

"Oh, my God," said her mother Terrie, when she was shown the now notorious photograph of her daughter pointing at Hayder Sabbar Abd's genitals in Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. "I can't get over this."
England grew up on a trailer park behind a saloon in Fort Ashby, West Virginia.

Quoted: "Oh, my God," said her mother Terrie, when she was shown the now notorious photograph of her daughter pointing at Hayder Sabbar Abd's genitals in Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. "I can't get over this." England grew up on a trailer park behind a saloon in Fort Ashby, West Virginia.

She was also removed from the "wall of honor" at kmart where she worked.Serves her right.

Quoted: Well, big effing deal--that's "torture"??  I guess the definition has changed with the pussification of the world.  The only "outrage" is that pics were taken and leaked.  Compare this to what those bastards do to OUR people--including civilian contractors.  Give me a break.

I hear ya.  if it were up to me, no prisioners would be taken.

No prisioners = no abuse

Quoted: Well, big effing deal--that's "torture"??  I guess the definition has changed with the pussification of the world.  The only "outrage" is that pics were taken and leaked.  Compare this to what those bastards do to OUR people--including civilian contractors.  Give me a break.

Exactly what I was thinking.  I can't believe that what was done would be considered a big deal but what dumb muther fucker took pictures and let the media get ahold of them on top of that?  WTF are we teaching out guys and gals over there?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, big effing deal--that's "torture"??  I guess the definition has changed with the pussification of the world.  The only "outrage" is that pics were taken and leaked.  Compare this to what those bastards do to OUR people--including civilian contractors.  Give me a break.   I hear ya.  if it were up to me, no prisioners would be taken. No prisioners = no abuse That's not as effective as it sounds--from where would we gain information?

Shoot first, shoot some more, then when everyone is dead, then ask some questions.

But, once they are all dead, we dont need info

OK, the prisoners are sub-human terrorist scum that don't deserve to live. Then shoot them and be done with it. Turning a US Military prison facility (even though it is an adhoc prison) into a homosexual torture chamber is pretty disgusting!

I just can't believe it deteriorated to this over there in the prisons. Wasn't there ONE soldier that would stand up and say, "THIS IS WRONG!"

Or remember something about the Geneva Convention?

Do we turn into animals? All of the photos show GIs smiling.

Turn them over to the Iraqi government to be tried in their court system. These f-ups will cause the world to cast doubt on ANY ACTION we take in the war on terror. The world,right this instant, is wondering what is going on down at Gitmo.

Our credibility was already hurting. Now it is shot.

The "abuse photos" consist of prisoners being stripped naked and subjected to humiliation.

Just thought I would take a moment to point out that these are things we do to our own people during E&E/POW training.

Things like sleep/sensory depravation, humiliation, physical stress and hunger, are LEGAL. If those photos bother you, I suggest you move to a world where wars are fought with nerf guns and whiffle balls.

Quoted: Well, big effing deal--that's "torture"??  I guess the definition has changed with the pussification of the world.  The only "outrage" is that pics were taken and leaked.  Compare this to what those bastards do to OUR people--including civilian contractors.  Give me a break.

I have to disagree with you on this one (reluctantly - since we see eye to eye on so many things).

It's either right or wrong, and what someone else did is completely irrelevant if we are a nation of principles.  I am outraged by the actions, because these yahoos completely abused the authority they were given (in a military system, no less), and if the U.S. is going to take over a country and administer it as the "liberator" and "defender of freedom" than it's absolutely incumbent upon us to hold ourselves to a higher standard.

Plus, keep in mind that we don't know WHAT these guys are in prison for (they might be car thieves, not members of the insurgency), and these instances ocurred long BEFORE the civilan contractors were killed in Falluja (I belive the investigation into this began in January).


I do agree with you that this is NOT "torture" in any meaning of the word - it is humiliation and degradation of prisoners, and it is despicable behavior on the parts of the prison guards (unless it was part of interrogation, but officials have said it was not).  Although the instances of rape and sodomy that are reported would PROBABLY rise to the techinical standard of "torture" - but I agree that none of the picture so far show "torture" in any meaning of the word.  (So maybe I am agreeing with you, after all ).

"The sky is falling..the sky is falling!"

Good God...get a grip. How ridiculous to think the whole war hinges on some porn pics of beared Iraqi men. That has to be one the stupidest assertions I have ever read. This has'nt hurt our credibility any more or any less than the invasion itself. It does'nt make a difference what we do  over there..SOME in the Arab world just plain hate us. Period. And Democrats? Please..they don't need anymore supposed "ammo"..they are just the same as the radical islamist. Waiting with bated breath for ANY negative news..suchs as dead American soldiers, failed missions. In effect, they are wanting the same thing as the terrorist.

Humiliating yes...torture, no. Porn pics...Larry Flynt has published worse.

Quoted: The "abuse photos" consist of prisoners being stripped naked and subjected to humiliation. Just thought I would take a moment to point out that these are things we do to our own people during E&E/POW training. Things like sleep/sensory depravation, humiliation, physical stress and hunger, are LEGAL. If those photos bother you, I suggest you move to a world where wars are fought with nerf guns and whiffle balls.

So I supposed that rape, sodomy and murder don't bother you either? - because that's what the department of defense is investigating mutliple cases of.

(as I said above, I agree that THESE pictures are not "toture" they are just disgusting and stupid)

I didn't see any photos of rape or sodomy...

Perhaps you could post links to them.

Quoted: I didn't see any photos of rape or sodomy... Perhaps you could post links to them.

That occurred in a NYC jail with a plunger - but I think the NYPD was smart enough not to take pictures.

Quoted: Quoted: I didn't see any photos of rape or sodomy... Perhaps you could post links to them. That occurred in a NYC jail with a plunger - but I think the NYPD was smart enough not to take pictures.

winar!!

Editorial from Charleston WV paper today. While I don't completely agree, it does raise interesting points.

May 06, 2004  
Torture

Iraq war outrage




ONE BY ONE, all of President Bush’s reasons for his Iraq war evaporated. Despite his claims, it turned out that Iraq didn’t possess ghastly germ weapons, wasn’t trying to make nuclear bombs, and wasn’t in league with suicidal fanatics who would bring those mass-murder instruments to America. Also, his claim that grateful Iraqis would greet U.S. troops as liberators wasn’t true.

In the end, the White House was left with only one justification: that the war removed a cruel dictator who tortured and murdered his citizens. But this assertion has been undercut a bit by the ugly revelation that abuses partly similar were committed by American occupiers — perhaps including West Virginians in a Cumberland reserve unit.

Reporters for “60 Minutes II” and The New Yorker revealed that Iraqi suspects were taken to the same prisons once used for torture under dictator Saddam Hussein. There, the suspects were stripped naked and tormented with hoods over their heads and wires attached to their genitals. Grinning Americans posed for photos with the naked victims.

An internal military report said the guards committed “sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses,” including sodomizing one suspect “with a chemical light and perhaps a broomstick.” One prisoner brought in by CIA agents allegedly died under interrogation.

Although six low-ranking reservists have been charged criminally, their commander, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, implied that military intelligence officers, CIA agents or contract mercenaries may have been behind the abuse. She noted that in one of the prisoner photos, 32 boots can be seen — so it’s obvious that more than six abusers were present.

Amnesty International, the worldwide human rights group, says it found “a pattern of torture” in the military prisons and received “scores” of abuse reports.

Monday’s Washington Post quoted several Iraqis who said they were seized from their homes, taken to stockades, beaten severely, kept blindfolded by hoods, and subjected to shrieking rock music designed to keep them awake for days while they were questioned about insurgent resistance. The Post estimated that up to 7,000 suspects are kept in 16 Iraq prisons and military holding cells.

Meanwhile, London’s Daily Mirror printed photos of British soldiers beating a suspect with rifle butts and urinating on him. The paper said the man’s limp body was dumped from the back of a military vehicle and left.

All these disgusting reports undermine the White House assertion that America performed a noble mission by ending Iraq’s police state.

Quoted: Quoted: Well, big effing deal--that's "torture"??  I guess the definition has changed with the pussification of the world.  The only "outrage" is that pics were taken and leaked.  Compare this to what those bastards do to OUR people--including civilian contractors.  Give me a break.   Exactly what I was thinking.  I can't believe that what was done would be considered a big deal but what dumb muther fucker took pictures and let the media get ahold of them on top of that?  WTF are we teaching out guys and gals over there?

word.

Perception is everything.  Perception is also the favorite tool of propagandists.

We will lose (or have lost) the propaganda war with these incidents.  

Quoted: Well, big effing deal--that's "torture"??  I guess the definition has changed with the pussification of the world. The only "outrage" is that pics were taken and leaked.   Compare this to what those bastards do to OUR people--including civilian contractors.  Give me a break.

Their actions will directly contribute to the deaths of American servicemen.
They violated OpSec, the took photos of military installations, and activities therein, and then released them to the public, DAMAGING national security, and the war effort.
It's not about the specifics of what was done to the Iraqi POWs.

It takes a little more thinking to see the scale of this.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Thank you, Army reservists and Army Intelligence officers.  You lost us THE FUCKING WAR!!! Yup no kidding, what a bunch of royal fuckups

No shit There are always some fuckups in the service, but the biggest Fuckup is the one with the camera

This is from the State Newspaper in Columbia SC.

Quoted: "The sky is falling..the sky is falling!" Good God...get a grip. How ridiculous to think the whole war hinges on some porn pics of beared Iraqi men. That has to be one the stupidest assertions I have ever read. This has'nt hurt our credibility any more or any less than the invasion itself. It does'nt make a difference what we do  over there..SOME in the Arab world just plain hate us. Period. And Democrats? Please..they don't need anymore supposed "ammo"..they are just the same as the radical islamist. Waiting with bated breath for ANY negative news..suchs as dead American soldiers, failed missions. In effect, they are wanting the same thing as the terrorist. Humiliating yes...torture, no. Porn pics...Larry Flynt has published worse.

Insurgencies are not wars of attrition.
They are complex, and require actions other than "kill 'em all", tio win.
We don't have to make everyone like us, that's not the point.
But this shit?
It goes directly against our efforts.

I am worried that this will lose Bush the election.....

Quoted: Quoted: "The sky is falling..the sky is falling!" Good God...get a grip. How ridiculous to think the whole war hinges on some porn pics of beared Iraqi men. That has to be one the stupidest assertions I have ever read. This has'nt hurt our credibility any more or any less than the invasion itself. It does'nt make a difference what we do  over there..SOME in the Arab world just plain hate us. Period. And Democrats? Please..they don't need anymore supposed "ammo"..they are just the same as the radical islamist. Waiting with bated breath for ANY negative news..suchs as dead American soldiers, failed missions. In effect, they are wanting the same thing as the terrorist. Humiliating yes...torture, no. Porn pics...Larry Flynt has published worse. Insurgencies are not wars of attrition. They are complex, and require actions other than "kill 'em all", tio win. We don't have to make everyone like us, that's not the point. But this shit? It goes directly against our efforts.

Well...hells bells, I guess we should pack our schitt and git then.

This is total non-sense..it will never happen again. The military justice will take care of the porn kids, there is nothing we can do to "make" the Arab world like us except leave. And we won't do that until there is Dem govt. in place. In order for the Iraqi's to ultimately succeed, they need  us to leave. No stupid pictures of humiliation should de-rail that process.

This mentality of giving up over an action of some MTV mixed up kids trying to be funny is ridiculous. The only big picture we should focus on, is winning the war against terror. Period.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: "The sky is falling..the sky is falling!" Good God...get a grip. How ridiculous to think the whole war hinges on some porn pics of beared Iraqi men. That has to be one the stupidest assertions I have ever read. This has'nt hurt our credibility any more or any less than the invasion itself. It does'nt make a difference what we do  over there..SOME in the Arab world just plain hate us. Period. And Democrats? Please..they don't need anymore supposed "ammo"..they are just the same as the radical islamist. Waiting with bated breath for ANY negative news..suchs as dead American soldiers, failed missions. In effect, they are wanting the same thing as the terrorist. Humiliating yes...torture, no. Porn pics...Larry Flynt has published worse. Insurgencies are not wars of attrition. They are complex, and require actions other than "kill 'em all", tio win. We don't have to make everyone like us, that's not the point. But this shit? It goes directly against our efforts. Well...hells bells, I guess we should pack our schitt and git then.

No, we just have to do things right.
Would you want to go out on a patrol, or lead an attack that was planned by the idiots who allowed this shit to occur?
That's the point.
Incompetence NEVER wins wars.
You can't just totally fuck up, and refuse to learn from it. I.E "it's no big deal".

This is total non-sense..it will never happen again. The military justice will take care of the porn kids, there is nothing we can do to "make" the Arab world like us except leave. And we won't do that until there is Dem govt. in place. In order for the Iraqi's to ultimately succeed, they need  us to leave. No stupid pictures of humiliation should de-rail that process.

We need to pacify them, so we can finish our work.
Think of it as a hornets' nest.  Would you like to take it on while the hornets sleep, or swarm?

This mentality of giving up over an action of some MTV mixed up kids trying to be funny is ridiculous. The only big picture we should focus on, is winning the war against terror. Period.

Giving up isn't an option.
If we are to focus on winning, we have to avoid being complete idiots.

Perhaps some "shock and awe" would change the subject.

Quoted: I didn't see any photos of rape or sodomy... Perhaps you could post links to them.

I'm just saying what the military is investigating

Quoted: I'm not saying it's "no big deal" or "acceptable" conduct--I am a stickler for proper decorum and conduct, and especially by the military.  My outrage is that this is being blown so far out of proportion by our political enemies (within and without).  I believe that court martials are in order, and suitable punishment, whatever that is--not my area of expertise.  We should be doing better--and 99.99% of our people are.  THAT is what matters.

I knew we agreed - I'm just slow in the understanding department

I don't understand. I post a thread the day this hit the news saying pictures were going to be on 60 minutes and all I get is a bunch of crap about 60 minutes, no one is interested in the story. Now that the news is out there are like 10 threads about it and everyone finds it interesting. Guess I can't be the first guy to post info.

Quoted: Thank you, Army reservists and Army Intelligence officers.  You lost us THE FUCKING WAR!!!

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


Yeah compared to Saddam placing cigarette pack sized C-4 explosive in the chest pocket of prisoners  and detonating them to kill people that is horrible beyond belief.

Wait till photos of the mass graves surface .


WTF calm down.

Quoted: Well, big effing deal--that's "torture"??  I guess the definition has changed with the pussification of the world.  The only "outrage" is that pics were taken and leaked.  Compare this to what those bastards do to OUR people--including civilian contractors.  Give me a break.

tru dat!!

i think they have done horrible things to our prisoners, but it does not make it right to stoop to, or near their level, this is sick, and our troops will bear the burden for the actions  of these idiots, it is a  shame, we can keep prisoners, and interrogate, and it can be donne with honor


not like some sicko perverted ideas from the lowest of the us troops can imagine

Quoted: Quoted: Thank you, Army reservists and Army Intelligence officers.  You lost us THE FUCKING WAR!!! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Yeah compared to Saddam placing cigarette pack sized C-4 explosive in the chest pocket of prisoners  and detonating them to kill people that is horrible beyond belief. Wait till photos of the mass graves surface . WTF calm down.

You dont understand anything.  This is a world where the Sudanese, who wipe out villages and enslave blacks, sit on the UN's human rights committee.  This is a world where Kofi Annan is promoted to Secretary General of the UN right after overseeing the genocide in Rwanda.  This is a world where the US is accused of invading Iraq for oil, while Iraq's most prominent advocates in the rest of the world are paid off in oil bribes from the Iraqi government.

This is a world where there is universal condemnation of the US for mistreating terrorists in Cuba, despite giving them better living conditions they'd ever had before in their lives.

In short, if the US is anything less than Jesus-like in conduct, we are condemned.  Our enemies could act like monsters, and they'd get a pass.

We are hated hated and condemned even when we do what is right and just. If we act reprehenibly, as we did in those prisons in Baghdad, the impression placed on the world is WORSE than say, the genocides of Rwanda. It doesn't matter if these crimes were done by low-level criminals.  The United States is so hated when we do the right thing, when we do the wrong thing, we will be crucified.

I know the crimes committed are trivial in the grand scheme of things.  The issue isn't WHAT was done, the issue is WHO did it.  And these fucking hicks who did it have more influence over global opinion than all of our ambassadors combined.

This is the truth.  Unfortunately.

The "Strategic Corporal".

With media on today's battlefield, an individual's actions can reverberate around the world.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Thank you, Army reservists and Army Intelligence officers.  You lost us THE FUCKING WAR!!! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Yeah compared to Saddam placing cigarette pack sized C-4 explosive in the chest pocket of prisoners  and detonating them to kill people that is horrible beyond belief. Wait till photos of the mass graves surface . WTF calm down. You don't understand anything. This is a world where the Sudanese, who wipe out villages and enslave blacks, sit on the UN's human rights committee.  This is a world where Kofi Annan is promoted to Secretary General of the UN right after overseeing the genocide in Rwanda.  This is a world where the US is accused of invading Iraq for oil, while Iraq's most prominent advocates in the rest of the world are paid off in oil bribes from the Iraqi government. This is a world where there is universal condemnation of the US for mistreating terrorists in Cuba, despite giving them better living conditions they'd ever had before in their lives. In short, if the US is anything less than Jesus-like in conduct, we are condemned.  Our enemies could act like monsters, and they'd get a pass. If we act reprehenibly, as we did in those prisons in Baghdad, the impression placed on the world is WORSE than say, the genocides of Rwanda. I know the crimes committed are trivial in the grand scheme of things.  The issue isn't WHAT was done, the issue is WHO did it.  And these fucking hicks who did it have more influence over global opinion than all of our ambassadors combined. This is the truth.  Unfortunately.

I understand this simple fact guy.
We are the most powerful nation on the face of this planet.

We need to stop trying to understand others and they had better start understanding us. Mess with our nation and  we will kill you. Kill our people and we we kill you.

The United Nations is for diplomats , Iraq is a place for soldiers, the two have different jobs, different goals.


Like I said  ------------ they had better start understanding us, leave our country alone and stop killing our people it is that simple, because we are dealing with people one step removed from the stone age.


These pictures are shit, nothing, if they - the arabs are pissed so fucking what. Like I  should care.

You know, this could work in our favor too...Psych warfare...You have these arabs telling eachother that they must commit suicide before they get captured because they have seen how the Americans treat prisoners....

Always save one bullet....

You know what would put Bush in good standing again? I hate to say it, but Rumsfeld needs to take one for the country. He needs to get the axe..Fire him and watch Bush's ratings go up... Someone has to be the scapegoat...What we do to punish the American's that did this, I can guarantee you, WILL NOT be sufficient enough for the arab world. Getting rid of Rumsfeld might make things a bit better and save a few of our boys.

What else is wrong, these soldiers are now in fear for their lives and the lives of their families. They will be for the rest of their lives. Their pictures and names are all over the news. They have even been typed here a few times. Don't be suprised if a couple of them aren't found with suicide notes next to what used to be their skulls...

Dudes,

This whole thing is getting way blown out of proportion.  This GD war.  I don't see any problem humiliating the enemy to soften him up.  Who knows this may have actually saved lives.  The arabs hated us before this happened.  So who gives a shit what they think.  The f*ing "arab street" now knows we are serious.  

Quoted: Things like sleep/sensory depravation, humiliation, physical stress and hunger, are LEGAL.

Well, you might want to get on the phone to the Intelligence school at Fort Huachuca where they
train all the Army interrogators. They seem to be under the misguided notion that it's not legal. I guess they must be confused.

This is in today's edition of the Tucson daily Star and attributed to the Ft Huachuca PAO.

Rules For Interrogators

"Rules for interrogators

°Fort Huachuca has legal guidelines used to train students. Included in the rules:

Tactics such as beating, physical or mental torture, sleep deprivation, withholding of food or infliction of pain are prohibited by numerous international laws and treaties.

If interrogators have any doubt about the lawfulness of a method, they are supposed to ask themselves two questions. One is whether a reasonable person would feel rights were being violated. The other test is whether the same action would be acceptable if done to a U.S. soldier.

If still in doubt, soldiers must refrain from action and seek a legal opinion from a military lawyer.

Source: Fort Huachuca public affairs office

Quoted: Quoted: Things like sleep/sensory depravation, humiliation, physical stress and hunger, are LEGAL.   Well, you might want to get on the phone to the Intelligence school at Fort Huachuca where they train all the Army interrogators. They seem to be under the misguided notion that it's not legal. I guess they must be confused. This is in today's edition of the Tucson daily Star and attributed to the Ft Huachuca PAO. Rules For Interrogators "Rules for interrogators °Fort Huachuca has legal guidelines used to train students. Included in the rules: Tactics such as beating, physical or mental torture, sleep deprivation, withholding of food or infliction of pain are prohibited by numerous international laws and treaties. If interrogators have any doubt about the lawfulness of a method, they are supposed to ask themselves two questions. One is whether a reasonable person would feel rights were being violated. The other test is whether the same action would be acceptable if done to a U.S. soldier. If still in doubt, soldiers must refrain from action and seek a legal opinion from a military lawyer. Source: Fort Huachuca public affairs office

Thank god there are still some sane people in the Military.......................... hoorah