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Posted: 12/24/2003 8:56:53 AM EDT
[#1]
[BS2]
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Posted: 12/24/2003 9:13:16 AM EDT
[#2]
cough BULLSHIT cough cough....
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Posted: 12/24/2003 9:16:03 AM EDT
[#3]
The Military should be so lucky as to issue glocks. Nope, the POS Beretta is the only issued sidearm in the service aside from some SpecOps units who use various types of sidearms to include Glocks, HK's, etc...
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Posted: 12/24/2003 9:22:38 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: The Military should be so lucky as to issue glocks. Nope, the POS Beretta is the only issued sidearm in the service aside from some SpecOps units who use various types of sidearms to include Glocks, HK's, etc... I think the Beretta has some downfalls but I don't think it qualifies as a POS. I was issued one while in the USN and never had a malf, they were bulky and the triggers were horrible but I don't remember seeing many failures. I had one for 4 years after getting out and never had a stoppage. I sold it mostly due to the shitty trigger. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 9:32:09 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Quoted: The Military should be so lucky as to issue glocks. Nope, the POS Beretta is the only issued sidearm in the service aside from some SpecOps units who use various types of sidearms to include Glocks, HK's, etc... I think the Beretta has some downfalls but I don't think it qualifies as a POS. Maynard, I defy anybody to take an issued M9, fire 15 rounds as fast as possible, and not have the slide lock up on them. We did it all the time in Iraq to prove a point. The heat generated by the weapon warps the slide guides enough so as to lock up the slide so tight that one could not cycle the weapon by hand. One had to put the slide up against a solid object and use one's entire body to push against the slide to release it. Once it cooled down in worked again....Its a known issue.....That definitely qualifies as a POS in my book!! I won't even get into the magazine issues, the constant jams, stovepipes, FFF,FFE that the weapon is notorious for. The after action reports speak for themselves. So much so that the Marine Corps is looking for a replacement for the M9....Mind you, I'm not looking to start a 'which is better' flame war. I'm merely speaking based on my experiences and those of fellow service members that have had similar failures (many of which I've witnessed first hand in Iraq) |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 9:33:21 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: The Military should be so lucky as to issue glocks. Nope, the POS Beretta is the only issued sidearm in the service aside from some SpecOps units who use various types of sidearms to include Glocks, HK's, etc... Don't some use Sig 228s? I could be wrong, but I don't think Beretta is as exclusive as stated. Oh, and echo sentiments, Berettas are NOT POS's. They are big, the triggers suck, but they go bang with boring regularity. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 9:38:18 AM EDT
[#7]
Don't some use Sig 228s? I could be wrong, but I don't think Beretta is as exclusive as stated. The Beretta is the [b]STANDARD[/b] issue weapon in the Armed Forces. Specops is a different animal all together. They get card blanche as far as weapons go. They carry what they want and, even then, the weapons they carry are modified by armorers...Your average Joe Blow service member gets issued an M9 as a T.O. weapon |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 9:42:12 AM EDT
[#8]
He is a forward observer... so he says. I don't know if that counts for specops.
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Posted: 12/24/2003 9:47:54 AM EDT
[#9]
I'm not in SpecOps, but my command uses M11's. Explain that!
The Glock story is BS plain and simple. The M9 is a POS, IMHO. I'll extremely distressed on the day the powers that be make us turn in our M11's and get M9's. It's coming, unfortunately. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 9:48:08 AM EDT
[#10]
A lot of the guys in forward positions carry Glocks. The idea is that if they are surprised by the enemy and disarmed, the bad guy will more than likely experience an AD and shoot himself with the Glock. It's really a rather clever idea when you think about it. [;D]
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Posted: 12/24/2003 9:48:34 AM EDT
[#11]
Here's the answer to shitty triggers.
[URL]www.langdontactical.com[/URL] This boy will set you free! |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 9:50:14 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Don't some use Sig 228s? I could be wrong, but I don't think Beretta is as exclusive as stated. The Beretta is the [b]STANDARD[/b] issue weapon in the Armed Forces. Specops is a different animal all together. They get card blanche as far as weapons go. They carry what they want and, even then, the weapons they carry are modified by armorers...Your average Joe Blow service member gets issued an M9 as a T.O. weapon The M-11 (Sig 228) is a standard sidearm issued to pilots, CID, among others. [url]http://www.ausa.org/www/armymag.nsf/(soldier)/20025?OpenDocument[/url] |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 9:51:03 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Don't some use Sig 228s? I could be wrong, but I don't think Beretta is as exclusive as stated. The Beretta is the [b]STANDARD[/b] issue weapon in the Armed Forces. Specops is a different animal all together. They get card blanche as far as weapons go. They carry what they want and, even then, the weapons they carry are modified by armorers...Your average Joe Blow service member gets issued an M9 as a T.O. weapon No, I don't mean SpecOps. I mean I believe some personell are issued Sigs, CID, for example. I don't want to split hairs and come up with one guy, somewhere, who was issued something other than the M9, I mean I think the M11 is in use, albeit in nowhere as great numbers as the Beretta. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 9:59:17 AM EDT
[#14]
CITADELGRAD87,
Not looking to split hairs either. There are exeptions to every rule and I'm sure there are weapons other than the M9 issued. By 'standard' issue I was referring to your average grunt (ground pounder) on the front lines. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 10:06:21 AM EDT
[#15]
It'll take a lot for glocks to be issued out instead of the M9 and M11. The lack of an external safety and long initial trigger pull combined with "one in the tube" doesn't make a glock "joeproof" enough in the eyes of many in the military.
Personally, I wouldn't mind carrying one; but I know many soldiers that can't even be trusted with the firearms they have now. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 10:08:39 AM EDT
[#16]
We're on the same page, ChrisLe.
I'm not one to jump in with the juvenile "Huh-UH," but I've been out of the game for a while and was basing it on recall. Agreed completely that the Glock line is TOTAL bs, also that the M9 to other number is probably better than 100 to one. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 10:17:08 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Military should be so lucky as to issue glocks. Nope, the POS Beretta is the only issued sidearm in the service aside from some SpecOps units who use various types of sidearms to include Glocks, HK's, etc... I think the Beretta has some downfalls but I don't think it qualifies as a POS. Maynard, I defy anybody to take an issued M9, fire 15 rounds as fast as possible, and not have the slide lock up on them. We did it all the time in Iraq to prove a point. The heat generated by the weapon warps the slide guides enough so as to lock up the slide so tight that one could not cycle the weapon by hand. One had to put the slide up against a solid object and use one's entire body to push against the slide to release it. Once it cooled down in worked again....Its a known issue.....That definitely qualifies as a POS in my book!! I won't even get into the magazine issues, the constant jams, stovepipes, FFF,FFE that the weapon is notorious for. The after action reports speak for themselves. So much so that the Marine Corps is looking for a replacement for the M9....Mind you, I'm not looking to start a 'which is better' flame war. I'm merely speaking based on my experiences and those of fellow service members that have had similar failures (many of which I've witnessed first hand in Iraq) I'm not going to get into this too deeply, I go on shift in less than an hour. I will say I have fired thousands of rounds thru Berettas, military and my personal weapons, carry one as a duty weapon, and have never heard one peep of a "Slide warping problem", or for that matter, any other sort of problem not related to faulty magazines. As for M11's, not as common as the M9, but they are out there. CID and MPI use them. Glock? Pure BS. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 10:17:35 AM EDT
[#18]
I believe it is "Carte Banche"
I don't think the U.S. would have chosen that firearm if it had that type of problem. Thank God for the 10 round magazine limit, because if you fire 15 as fast as you can your pistol will jam. Probably not with onlt 10 rounds though. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 12:09:48 PM EDT
[#19]
I have a Beretta 96, and yes it is big and the trigger is bad. I sure liked it though, then I got a SIG SP2340. After shooting that a lot, I shot the Beretta again, and I don't like it much any more. I will keep it though since it was my first pistol [:)]. Oh ya and in thousands of rounds of shooting, it had only failed twice, both rounds were Sellier & Bellot and from the same box. Then, though, after I shot it again recently and started thinking I liked the SIG a lot better, the friggen Beretta goes and jams on me! Wierd. I think it was pissed at me for getting the SIG.
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Posted: 12/24/2003 12:23:56 PM EDT
[#20]
What do you expect! Its Italian! Its going to get pissed!
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Posted: 12/24/2003 12:36:05 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: The Military should be so lucky as to issue glocks. Nope, the POS Beretta is the only issued sidearm in the service aside from some SpecOps units who use various types of sidearms to include Glocks, HK's, etc... More bullshit. The Sig P228 is issued as the M11 to quite a few personnel. As for Glocks.........can you say "ballistic fingerprinting" and "KABOOM"? |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 12:40:29 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: CITADELGRAD87, Not looking to split hairs either. There are exeptions to every rule and I'm sure there are weapons other than the M9 issued. By 'standard' issue I was referring to your average grunt (ground pounder) on the front lines. No, you didn't say "standard issue", you said "issue", period. The Military should be so lucky as to issue glocks. Nope, the POS Beretta is the only issued sidearm in the service aside from some SpecOps units who use various types of sidearms to include Glocks, HK's, etc... I also don't think that even SpecOps use Glocks. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 12:41:31 PM EDT
[#23]
I'd say bS, why would you want a Glock when you can have the M11.
Imho, the SIG 228 is a much better accurate reliable sidearm. ZacH [>]:)] |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 12:43:01 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: I'd say bS, why would you want a Glock when you can have the M11. Imho, the SIG 228 is a much better accurate reliable sidearm. ZacH [>]:)] Agreed. Hell, my P89 is better than a Grock. If you Glockaholics don't believe that, go look up the Maryland State Police tests several years back for their issue weapon. The 2 best were HK and Sig, followed by Ruger, THEN Glock. Same exact tests for all guns involved. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 12:45:28 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: CITADELGRAD87, Not looking to split hairs either. There are exeptions to every rule and I'm sure there are weapons other than the M9 issued. By 'standard' issue I was referring to your average grunt (ground pounder) on the front lines. average grunt has no sidearm |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 12:47:46 PM EDT
[#26]
I would say this is total nonsense as well-if I didn't remember seeing a pic of an MP directing traffic with a Glock at the beginning of the war. It was posted here and commented on. So make of that what you will.
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Posted: 12/24/2003 12:49:57 PM EDT
[#27]
If the m9 is a POS why replace it with a worst POS like a Glock.
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Posted: 12/24/2003 12:54:51 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Quoted: CITADELGRAD87, Not looking to split hairs either. There are exeptions to every rule and I'm sure there are weapons other than the M9 issued. By 'standard' issue I was referring to your average grunt (ground pounder) on the front lines. No, you didn't say "standard issue", you said "issue", period. LarryG, Perhaps you should read a little closer. Read my subsequent post and you'll see that I not only used the word 'Standard,' I actually highlighted it... The Military should be so lucky as to issue glocks. Nope, the POS Beretta is the only issued sidearm in the service aside from some SpecOps units who use various types of sidearms to include Glocks, HK's, etc... I also don't think that even SpecOps use Glocks. Oh really, then the Glocks the SEALS were using during my time at NSWU4 were really only fakes. Not to mention the Glocks Recon was using in Nazariyia.Hmmm, must be a lot of fake Glocks running around the Specops community.[rolleyes] |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 12:58:37 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Military should be so lucky as to issue glocks. Nope, the POS Beretta is the only issued sidearm in the service aside from some SpecOps units who use various types of sidearms to include Glocks, HK's, etc... I think the Beretta has some downfalls but I don't think it qualifies as a POS. Maynard, I defy anybody to take an issued M9, fire 15 rounds as fast as possible, and not have the slide lock up on them. We did it all the time in Iraq to prove a point. The heat generated by the weapon warps the slide guides enough so as to lock up the slide so tight that one could not cycle the weapon by hand. One had to put the slide up against a solid object and use one's entire body to push against the slide to release it. Once it cooled down in worked again....Its a known issue.....That definitely qualifies as a POS in my book!! I won't even get into the magazine issues, the constant jams, stovepipes, FFF,FFE that the weapon is notorious for. The after action reports speak for themselves. So much so that the Marine Corps is looking for a replacement for the M9....Mind you, I'm not looking to start a 'which is better' flame war. I'm merely speaking based on my experiences and those of fellow service members that have had similar failures (many of which I've witnessed first hand in Iraq) i am not buying the slide problem you talk about, i have done exactly what you have said, not one mag, but 5 or more, and all with in a 1 minute or so span of time, no frozen slide on mine |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 12:59:35 PM EDT
[#30]
US Marine F-18 PIlots during GW1 bought thier own Glocks...Glock USA did a bulk Credit Card purchase and shipped them to Saudi Arabia along with a Glock Armorer/Instructor to train/transition them from the piss poor guns they were carrying...
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Posted: 12/24/2003 1:02:06 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: i am not buying the slide problem you talk about, i have done exactly what you have said, not one mag, but 5 or more, and all with in a 1 minute or so span of time, no frozen slide on mine I am not saying you should. There is no perfect weapon out there. We each use what we believe to be the best weapon for its intended purpose. I can only speak about my personal experiences with the M9 and other such problems that I have personally witnessed. My post was not indented to dissuade anybody nor was it indented to portray one weapon as superior. Its all a matter of personal preference.... |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 1:07:37 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Quoted: CITADELGRAD87, Not looking to split hairs either. There are exeptions to every rule and I'm sure there are weapons other than the M9 issued. By 'standard' issue I was referring to your average grunt (ground pounder) on the front lines. average grunt has no sidearm My Bad. I should have been more specific. I was referring to those ground pounders for which the M9 is their T.O. (and only) weapon (Officers, SNCO's, Corpsmen,etc) |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 1:07:44 PM EDT
[#33]
In May, the Army's Program Executive Office (PEO) Soldier, put out a great "Lessons Learned" from the perspective of the grunts in the mud and sand of Iraq. It is long...so I'm not going to cut and past...but here is the link: [url]http://www.militec1.com/OperationIraqiFreedom.pdf[/url]
It is a superb paper on what worked in Iraq...and what did NOT. Bottom line, the grunts did not like the M9. I have carried the M9, 1911, Walther P-99 and a couple of other types of evil, black semi-auto military pistols, both in and out of the service. I think a new out-of-the-box, M9 is a pretty nice weapon...BUT, at 9mm, not my preferred self-defense pistol. Clearly, after many years of use, the standard issue pistols are getting a bit worn out and are becoming unserviceable. THAT is unsat. It's time to toss them and give our troops a better weapon in a hotter caliber. I also read a great paper from the Marines too (I work in Quantico.) discussing the same stuff. Basically, the Marines are recommending replacement of the M9 with the M-4 carbine. Here is a quote: To increase firepower in the Division, the M4 Carbine should replace the pistol as the T/E weapon for many pistol bearers in the Division. Durability and maintenance challenges must be corrected as a prerequisite for the M4's use. If durability issues can be resolved, the M4 would be an excellent replacement for the 9mm pistol. Recommendation: After correcting the identified durability and maintenance deficiencies, the M4 replace selected 9mm pistols in the Division. Well...if the grunts want to ditch the M9 for something else...it works for me! I know one thing...if I were deployed and IF I could by hook or by crook, get my hands on a Glock, Hk, Walther P-99, SA XD or any of the many great 1911 clones, in any caliber from .357Sig to .45ACP, I'd take it over the issue M9. I just wouldn't trust my life to that pistol. Better yet, I'd try to scam an M4 or AK-47. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 1:18:50 PM EDT
[#34]
US Marine F-18 PIlots during GW1 bought thier own Glocks Key word... Pilot. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 4:53:40 PM EDT
[#35]
I am here in Hawaii and my wife's cousin is in the 25th ID and ready to go. I was a 11H so I of course asked him what new toys they got. With the usual m4, m9, saw mix he said that they got the LSS (12 gauge shotgun mounted like the 203) and very old looking m14s. No mention of glocks. I personally would like to know how the shotgun performs. As a personal note out of the 30 or so m9s that my unit had 4 rusted slides or barrels so bad you could not rack the slide. My issued one never had any malfunctions of any kind during qualifications but did rust a little. Might just be the salt air here in Hawaii, but it did shake my confidence in the weapon.
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Posted: 12/24/2003 5:15:53 PM EDT
[#36]
What qualifies as an odd looking M14?
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Posted: 12/24/2003 5:26:25 PM EDT
[#37]
I was issued an M11 in CI. That's the only one I've ever seen in use in the Army, everyone else had Berettas.
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Posted: 12/24/2003 5:32:42 PM EDT
[#38]
I have fired thousands of rounds thru my issue M9's over the years and have only had 1 stovepipe and 3-4 ammo failures. I have tortured a few M9's by running mag after mag and have never had one or heard/seen of one locking up the slide from overheating. Like any pistol even the 1911A1 Keep it clean and it will do you right.
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Posted: 12/24/2003 5:37:34 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: I am here in Hawaii and my wife's cousin is in the 25th ID and ready to go. I was a 11H so I of course asked him what new toys they got. With the usual m4, m9, saw mix he said that they got the LSS (12 gauge shotgun mounted like the 203) and very old looking m14s. No mention of glocks. I personally would like to know how the shotgun performs. As a personal note out of the 30 or so m9s that my unit had 4 rusted slides or barrels so bad you could not rack the slide. My issued one never had any malfunctions of any kind during qualifications but did rust a little. Might just be the salt air here in Hawaii, but it did shake my confidence in the weapon. I was an MP at Schofield Barracks ( USASCH and 25th ID ) and was the Unit Armorer for the last 6 months. If weapons weren't oiled at the end of every shift they would rust. (We had 1911's) The salty air over there is bad on metals. I've carried the M9 in reserves and owned both the m92 and m96 and now have a m92 Elite. I have never had any problems with these guns malfunctioning. The problems with the M9's in Iraq I'm sure are explainable. I sure dont see any "warpage" being the problem. COZ |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 5:39:29 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: I am here in Hawaii and my wife's cousin is in the 25th ID and ready to go. I was a 11H so I of course asked him what new toys they got. With the usual m4, m9, saw mix he said that they got the LSS (12 gauge shotgun mounted like the 203) and very old looking m14s. No mention of glocks. I personally would like to know how the shotgun performs. As a personal note out of the 30 or so m9s that my unit had 4 rusted slides or barrels so bad you could not rack the slide. My issued one never had any malfunctions of any kind during qualifications but did rust a little. Might just be the salt air here in Hawaii, but it did shake my confidence in the weapon. Even assuming the weapon is prone to rust, wouldn't letting it get so bad as to be unoperable point to a lack of PM? Or did they just rust overnight or what? |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 5:39:36 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: What qualifies as an odd looking M14? He said [b]"old"[/b]. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 5:54:54 PM EDT
[#42]
Oh yeah...he did didnt he? My bad.
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Posted: 12/24/2003 6:19:24 PM EDT
[#43]
Well let me throw my experience into the mix...
Back in '89 when I was on active duty, we flew numerous trips to Columbia with various MTTs (that would be Military Training Team - had something to do with the so called War On Drugs). We were ordered to be under arms while in Columbia. I carried my Glock 17. I even saw some embassy security Marines with Glock 17s. I have personally seen Navy Spec War types with Glock 17s. I have somewhere an issue of SOF Magazine with a photo of USMC pilots with Glock 19s in Gulf War 1. Hell in G.W. 1 I took my G17 w/me. Military doesn't issue Glocks, but don't be surprised to see them in the holsters U.S. military personell. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 6:54:38 PM EDT
[#44]
I have it on good authority that during GW I the Glock company offered any soldier, sailor, or pilot a $1000 bonus and a P.I. to maintain surveillance on his stateside wife in return for carrying a free Glock. Of course you saw a lots of Glocks given those conditions. [rolleyes]
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Posted: 12/24/2003 7:11:31 PM EDT
[#45]
Not being sarcastic, and I certainly believe Chris as far as it happening, but what did Beretta do differently in the M9 vs the civillian 92FS?
I've never had my Beretta hard-lock under rapid fire (and yes, I have done the 'How fast can you empty a mag' thing)? Or is this an Iraq-specific (i.e. 'crappy gun-jamming environment' issue)? |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 7:38:29 PM EDT
[#46]
I carried a Beretta M9 for 4 years as a law enforcement spec. in the USAF Security Police. We had to qualify like three times a year with it. During the 12 or so times I qualified, the weapon never FFF or FFE. I had one malfunction and that was a magazine related malf. I still think that it had more to do with the fact that we kept our mags loaded to capacity in the armory 24-7 than a "bad mag". I felt confident with the weapon but despised that we had to carry FMJ! All in all the M9 is not a bad weapon. It does have severe shortcomings IMO. Long heavy trigger pull and a grip that was designed by a f@cking brick layer!!LOL Not my first choice, but I wouldn't leave an M9 laying around...I'd pick it up and use it for what it is intended for...close range self-defense!
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Posted: 12/24/2003 7:51:15 PM EDT
[#47]
Interestingly enough, the TO&E for my company (USAR, Engineer Combat Battalion) calls for one pistol, a M-11, for the CO.
But since we had an M-9 in the arms room when the TO&E changed, the M-9 is listed as an authorised substitute and remains. I have almost convinced the CO to KB it it just so he can get a M-11. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 7:53:01 PM EDT
[#48]
Back in the Gulf War I saw some Salior Pilots carrying Glocks instead of the nasty POS Berettas
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Posted: 12/25/2003 1:49:13 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Military should be so lucky as to issue glocks. Nope, the POS Beretta is the only issued sidearm in the service aside from some SpecOps units who use various types of sidearms to include Glocks, HK's, etc... I think the Beretta has some downfalls but I don't think it qualifies as a POS. Maynard, I defy anybody to take an issued M9, fire 15 rounds as fast as possible, and not have the slide lock up on them. We did it all the time in Iraq to prove a point. The heat generated by the weapon warps the slide guides enough so as to lock up the slide so tight that one could not cycle the weapon by hand. One had to put the slide up against a solid object and use one's entire body to push against the slide to release it. Once it cooled down in worked again....Its a known issue.....That definitely qualifies as a POS in my book!! I won't even get into the magazine issues, the constant jams, stovepipes, FFF,FFE that the weapon is notorious for. The after action reports speak for themselves. So much so that the Marine Corps is looking for a replacement for the M9....Mind you, I'm not looking to start a 'which is better' flame war. I'm merely speaking based on my experiences and those of fellow service members that have had similar failures (many of which I've witnessed first hand in Iraq) Total Bull Shit. My department shoots Berettas and I've never seen this happen. |
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Posted: 12/25/2003 3:42:27 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: Total Bull Shit. My department shoots Berettas and I've never seen this happen. Merely because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it didn't happen....It happened to me TWICE in Iraq and twice more to two SNCO's in my unit.....Believe what you want but merely calling something bullshit because YOU never experienced it is absurd! Perhaps it hasn't happened to you because you weren't firing your weapon in 120 degree heat in the desert. Perhaps your weapon is relatively new and hasn't had several thousand rounds through it like those in the Military. I don't know what caused it to do what it did. All I know is it happened to ME and that makes the weapon unreliable in combat IMHO. The point I'm trying to make is that calling something Bullshit merely because it didn't happen to YOU is absurd. Its the equivalent of saying "I've never been in an Earthquake therefore earthquakes don't exist." I am merely relaying MY experiences with the weapon. Take it for what its worth....... |
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