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Posted: 12/23/2003 10:04:37 PM EDT
[#1]
it gives me much better control, and is more natural/comfortable on my semi AR
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Posted: 12/23/2003 10:10:54 PM EDT
[#2]
The forward grip helps to keep your elbows in toward the body during tactical entries. I have also heard that in close quarters you get faster response and better recoil recovery.
Never used one, though, so can't speak from experience. Dave |
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Posted: 12/23/2003 10:14:47 PM EDT
[#3]
to add to the above:
much easier on your arm after lengthened periods of holding your gun up to your shoulder (thats right, not on a rifle rest/bench [:D]) |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 4:59:35 AM EDT
[#4]
I have a colt m4 and for the last couple weeks I've been working on my standing, doing double taps at 25-50 yards. Using a conventional hold, grabbing the forearm, I got about 2 in groups. On a lark, I started holding on to the mag well in a verticle grip. My group size shrank to under 1in, some in the same hole. Whether it was isometric tension or the tooth fairy, a vertical grip seems to work. I plan on buying one in the future.
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Posted: 12/24/2003 6:32:30 AM EDT
[#5]
Well, it all sounds good. Where to get one cheap? I don't want to outlay the money for a Knight rail until I'm satisfied with its necessity. Does anybody make one that will lock onto a simple weaver rail attached to the handguard?
You guys realize you have helped me get into the accessories mode again, much to the despair of my wife. Thnaks everyone! |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 6:39:51 AM EDT
[#6]
Go to the SOG website. They have a good selection and descent prices. You will have to purchase a rail if you don't have one.
Also go to American Spirit Arms site. They have some also. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 6:46:07 AM EDT
[#7]
i used to have a bad habit of grabbing the magwell. That is until i had a cade failure and blew a mag and LOTS of hot gas out the well. If i had been holding it there i'd have severely burned my hand.
Now i make a point of using the hand guard or putting a for grip close in to grab. It also makes for faster control of the weapon in cqb. mike |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 6:49:21 AM EDT
[#8]
Vertical vs horizontal is a much more natural position for your hand and forearm. That being said, I need to get one myself!
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Posted: 12/24/2003 6:52:29 AM EDT
[#9]
It also depends on the angle. I removed the forward PG on my 1927A1 Deluxe (semi), and replaced it with the standard M1 Thompson grip because it was so bad for shoulder firing. It is angled the wrong way for accurate firing. Take a look at it, versus the proper angle of say, and AMD65.
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Posted: 12/24/2003 6:57:37 AM EDT
[#10]
And for a counter opinion -
The hand guards are supported not gripped for greater accuracy which I understand isn’t a problem for the high-speed low-drag CQB operators who shoot at ranges out to eight to ten feet typically. I don't know of anyone who has the ability to catch a bullet in their hands nor move their hands downwards in 1/10th of a second which is what people are trying to do pulling the weapon downwards between shots. A nice muzzle brake will do this same thing automatically and better than anyone can with your hand. Sir Isaac Newton came up with a series of laws that are very difficult to violate on physics. Mass in motion has momentum and the amount is calculated with the formula mass x acceleration = momentum. A heavier handguard means greater momentum. Having a four inch mono-pod sitting out forward can limit the use of horizontal cover that you can use. It is mostly a matter of taste and who am I to tell you your taste. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 6:59:53 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Vertical vs horizontal is a much more natural position for your hand and forearm. That being said, I need to get one myself! I disagree, as it's also the weaker position (going back to my heavy Thompson example). Try this, fake holding a forward PG during shoulder firing. Take a 3 pound weight, and see how long you can hold it up as if it was the weight on your front hand. Now try it with same weight, but faking a standard palming grip. Which can you hold longer? IMO, a forward PG is a FA control thing. Not to mention an extra place to put your hand if you've 'over accessorized'. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 7:06:43 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Vertical vs horizontal is a much more natural position for your hand and forearm. That being said, I need to get one myself! Yes your hand & wrist is in a more neutral position - but its a very poor position for bearing the weight and you will have to use more muscles to hold up the front end. The *propely positioned* foward grip will allow better muzzle control. It also puts the wrist in a more neutral position reducing fatigue in the support arm muscles. With the support elbow tucked in you get much better mechanical support for the weight (some can be transferred to the body). All this results in less fatigue when clearing buildings (which can take a while). At first I didn't like the grips. It turned out I had tried them too far away from my body. After reading some tips from Pat Rogers in one of his articles I tried it again (this time closer to the magazine well) and it quickly grew on me. One of the cheapest forward grips I've found is the one sold by Fulton Armory (VG-1 Guardian Foward Grip). It normally costs $24.95 and right now its 20% off (till Christmas) so your cost if you order now is [b]$20[/b] plus shipping. The grip itself is a copy of the Knight's grip. Its all plastic, and tightens via a knob at the bottom which raises a piston with a 'stub' to lock into the rails. This grip works well with the Fobus M33 & M44 rails (I've been it on my carbine). The grip is a bit thinner than the Knights, but costs less than half. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 7:07:31 AM EDT
[#13]
well, there are always drawbacks, and it's good to hear those as well.
not to get nitpicky here, but an object's momentum is calculated by the product of its mass and velocity. p = mv the product of mass and acceleration is force according to Newton's second law of motion F = ma A heavier handguard would reduce recoil due to the increase in inertia- resistance to change in motion. If I can find a forward grip system really cheap I'll try it out. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 7:08:39 AM EDT
[#14]
I shot varsity rifle in both HS and college. I NEVER saw anyone in the offhand employ anything other than a vertical hold, throwing the forward hip out in order to let the vertical lower arm tuck in and its elbow "rest" on the upper pelvis/belt area. Granted they were only .22s, but HEAVY Anschutz target rifles. I still fire my rifles and slug shotgun that way while in the offhand. Guess I am risking a mag well blowback on some of them... Can someone post a pic of what you mean by these forward pistol grips?
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Posted: 12/24/2003 7:28:37 AM EDT
[#15]
[b]I shot varsity rifle in both HS and college. I NEVER saw anyone in the offhand employ anything other than a vertical hold, throwing the forward hip out in order to let the vertical lower arm tuck in and its elbow "rest" on the upper pelvis/belt area. Granted they were only .22s, but HEAVY Anschutz target rifles. I still fire my rifles and slug shotgun that way while in the offhand. Guess I am risking a mag well blowback on some of them... Can someone post a pic of what you mean by these forward pistol grips?[/b]
i shoot smallbore 3-p and know exactly what you are ta;lking about. but...these guys are talking about a high speed/low drag device that does absolutely nothing in the world of the average civilian shooter...other than look cool. hmmm? the vertical forward grip as used as a riser block for offhand shooting? cool!!! i've got an m4 select fire carbine and wouldn't have a vertical forward grip as a gift. worthless in my world. ymmv. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 7:35:09 AM EDT
[#16]
Comander Campy has spoken!
:) |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 7:37:45 AM EDT
[#17]
I don't recall ever seeing them on an M-14, M-1 Garand, AK-47/-74 or an M-2 carbine which leads me to belive its a typical gadget sold to gadget-prone AR shooters who have more dollars than sense.
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Posted: 12/24/2003 7:42:17 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: I don't recall ever seeing them on an M-14, M-1 Garand, AK-47/-74 or an M-2 carbine which leads me to belive its a typical gadget sold to gadget-prone AR shooters who have more dollars than sense. To be specific, Romanian issue AKMs are standard with a forward PG, as are Hungarian AMD65s. Control in FA is paramount in both cases though. The AMD might as well be a submachine gun. This doesn't change the fact that I agree with their non-utility. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 7:43:22 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Can someone post a pic of what you mean by these forward pistol grips? [img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/081942.jpg[/img] not mine \/ [img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/054105.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 7:45:21 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: I don't recall ever seeing them on an M-14, M-1 Garand, AK-47/-74 or an M-2 carbine which leads me to belive its a typical gadget sold to gadget-prone AR shooters who have more dollars than sense. your name fits [rolleyes] |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 7:48:54 AM EDT
[#21]
[img]http://www.nyguns.org/ar15shoot/Sept-29/DSC00550.JPG[/img]
How'yall like my Romanian AK with foward grip?[:D] |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 8:22:44 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: but...these guys are talking about a high speed/low drag device that does absolutely nothing in the world of the average civilian shooter...other than look cool. Campy, your right - if all you do is shoot from the bench. Take some 'urban rifle' classes where you are staying in low ready for a several minutes, with drill after drill of low ready to fire, then practice clearing drills. After 6-8 hours of this per day you'll see the benefit in reduced fatigue. It made a big believer out of me after my first tactical rifle class. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 5:07:43 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: And for a counter opinion - The hand guards are supported not gripped for greater accuracy which I understand isn’t a problem for the high-speed low-drag CQB operators who shoot at ranges out to eight to ten feet typically. I don't know of anyone who has the ability to catch a bullet in their hands nor move their hands downwards in 1/10th of a second which is what people are trying to do pulling the weapon downwards between shots. A nice muzzle brake will do this same thing automatically and better than anyone can with your hand. Sir Isaac Newton came up with a series of laws that are very difficult to violate on physics. Mass in motion has momentum and the amount is calculated with the formula mass x acceleration = momentum. A heavier handguard means greater momentum. Having a four inch mono-pod sitting out forward can limit the use of horizontal cover that you can use. It is mostly a matter of taste and who am I to tell you your taste. Well stated... It's more a faze than anything. Dirk |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 5:27:06 PM EDT
[#24]
To each their own, I think they are goofy.
But if it trips your trigger, go for it, it is your gun. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 5:44:20 PM EDT
[#25]
Instead of forking out big bucks for a Knights system, one alternative if you have the M-4 handguards, is to buy a little weaver attachment that bolts to the lower handguard. Pop the heatshield out, install the little plate and weaver rail and put the heatshield back in.
Then you can get one of several styles of handles from SOG. Do not make the mistake I did and buy the weaver attachment from SOG though. Theirs is made from plastic and when you tighten it down it breaks. Bye, bye $12. Instead get the same style but made from aluminum, from somewhere else. It should cost $20 and the handle is about $25-$40, depending on if you get the machined aluminum one or not. |
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Posted: 12/24/2003 6:34:47 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: To each their own, I think they are goofy. But if it trips your trigger, go for it, it is your gun. My sentiments exactly. When forward pistol grips made their splash in paintball, I tried them and promptly decided I didn't like them. There simply was no tangible benefit for me. As far as ARs go, I have the same opinion. Using the standard forward handguards is more than adequate for me and my intended usage. However, if there are people who want to put a FPG on their ARs, by all means, knock yourselves out. They're your weapons, after all. |
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Posted: 12/25/2003 3:16:49 PM EDT
[#27]
Does somebody make one that will fit on a weaver rail? I could bolt a spare weaver base onto the handguard real easy and give one a try before going for a legit setup.
BTW, by SOG do you mean southern ohio gun? if so, I found nothing on their website about grips. |
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Posted: 12/25/2003 3:22:33 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Sir Isaac Newton came up with a series of laws that are very difficult to violate on physics. Mass in motion has momentum and the amount is calculated with the formula mass x acceleration = momentum. A heavier handguard means greater momentum. I'm not sure where you're going with this. First, let me nitpick. Momentum is velocity x mass. Acceleration x mass is force, FYI. If you're implying with added weight comes added recoil I would have to disagree. The increased mass actually means decreased velocity of the recoil because a given round will only impart so much momentum on the gun/shooter. One last thing, the 4 inch monopod doesn't limit horizontal cover. The foregrip is actually smaller in height than a 20 or 30 round magazine. |
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Posted: 12/25/2003 10:57:05 PM EDT
[#29]
Tell you what. If you want to try it cheap, I'll sell you a Fobus vertical grip and 1/2 of an M33 carbine handguard set for $50. You really can't use both halves of the M33 anyway as they aren't optically stable, but 1/2 will replace one of your carbine handguards and let you give it a try. The vertical grip is easy to remove and then slide a cover over the rail for a conventional handguard.
The set is brand new. I tried it and decided that I'm too old fashioned and just couldn't get a vert grip to work for me. Figured I hadn't put much money into the attempt. Here are a couple of pics. [img]http://www.isayeret.com/gear/samco/vg-2.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.isayeret.com/gear/samco/grip.gif[/img] Didn't intend to hijack the thread, but it seemed appropriate. Bottom line, your mileage may vary. Lots of people love them and can cite volumes of reasons why they work. For the rest of us, it just doesn't work. |
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Posted: 12/25/2003 11:21:20 PM EDT
[#30]
The (original, civillian) Thompson's forward grip was designed for use when shooting from the hip. Ditto for the AK variety...
The advantages of the forward PG are better control in certain positions, and what amounts to a more comfortable grip for some... Disadvantage is that it complicates accurate prone shooting (where the hand-cradling-handguard position is more natural...) As for my preferences, I'd have one on a drum-equipped AK, or a Colt SMG... On a 20" AR, I'll keep the straignt handguard... |
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Posted: 12/25/2003 11:32:25 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: I don't know of anyone who has the ability to catch a bullet in their hands nor move their hands downwards in 1/10th of a second which is what people are trying to do pulling the weapon downwards between shots. A nice muzzle brake will do this same thing automatically and better than anyone can with your hand. Your grip should remain consistant pulling the muzzle down and into your shoulder. You dont milk the thing between shots. Having a four inch mono-pod sitting out forward can limit the use of horizontal cover that you can use. I dont close up to cover, so this has never been an issue for me. |
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