In tribute to the Samurai vs. Commanche thread, I present another scenario. WHAT IF, for whatever reason, the Japanese capitulated a year or so before they did. Let's say for argument's sake the Russians did too. I realize this was not at all near happening but work with me here, ok? This frees up American and German divisions to fight in Western Europe.

In my scenario the 1st Marine Division lands on 6 June 1944 in Normandy.  Opposing the landing is the Waffen SS division Das Reich. Hedgerow fighting ensues. Discuss.

Das Reich was in the middle of a refit/reinforce in June. Which means alot of unseasoned troops and a shortage of panzers.Add that to allied air power and all they would be able to do would slow up the Marines.

I vote for the MARINES [marines]

Of course the upside would be that the Massacre at Oradour most likely wouldn't have happened.

i see dead people.  lots and lots of dead people.  

Marines all the way

So for instance, instead of the 1st Infantry Division, US Army, landing the 1st Marine Division would take their place?

USMC forces were generally lighter, fewer tanks, tank destroyers, than US Army Divisions. The USMC force in WW-II only fought 2 (IIRC) "invasions" from start to finish. In most operations the USMC caught enough ground for the Army to set up a combat Wal-Mart, and the Army landed their HEAVIER forces, including tanks, TD's, and SP arty, and relieved the USMC forces.  

Even if all things were equal, the USMC forces would have signifigant trouble with penetrating the hedgerows, w/o heavy equipment.

They would have to go through the openings to bypass the hedgerows. I'm sure the Germans wouldn't expect that...................

The USMC and IJA/IJN engaged in what was basically infantry combat with each other. The Japanese forces used foritifications. But the IJA had very few tanks, and the ones they did have were lightly armed and armored. They also had few heavy AT guns.

The USMC forces were optimized to fight those battles. They did it well.

It would be a whole different ball game for USMC forces in "amtracs", LVTs, and "alligators", to roll up on a beach in France, and run into Pak-75's 88's, MK-IV panzers, and armored half-tracks, supported by German soldiers with StG-44's, Panzerfausts, and MG-42's.

[url]www.amtrac.org/home.html[/url]

Round 1 went well...

[img]http://bigridge.net/5thww1.jpg[/img]

Question however:

How did they stack up as regards armor?  Didn't Das Reich have a LOT more?

Excellent posts! Keep US air superiority/dominance in mind during this time frame. This would help the Marines regarding their lack of heavy armor/anti-armor weapons. Remember that many German armored formations were decimated by US/Allied air assets before they even reached the front lines.

Marines would kick their asses all over central Europe.

As mentioned, the Marines as presented in their Pacific fighting form in regards to equipment and firepower would get their asses handed to them by any topline Panzer unit whether it be SS-1,2,3,5 or even the Army's Gross Deutschland.
Now if you were to supply the Marines with U.S. Army firepower then the story might be different. The only question would be if the Marine officers could adapt to a different style of fighting. There's a big difference in infantry fighting in the Pacific and armour supported warfare in Europe.
As equiped with U.S. Marine equipment I don't think they would have ever got through the hedgerows.

Of course, if I didnt want to work with you in this scenario I would argue that if the Russians had capitulated to the Germans we would have never set foot on Fortress Europe in 1944. [;)]

edit: need to learn how to spell scenario

I think Atencio hit it right on. If the Germans werent fighting the Russians, chances are it would have been a few more years, if EVER, before we would have been able to set foot on mainland Europe.

Yep, can you say 200 divisions.  That is why it was imperative we open a second front in 1942 and take some resources away from the Eastern Front.


On topic, seasoned Marines against seasoned SS would have been about even.  However if the SS had heavy equipment it would be bad for the Marines.

To see what would have happened all you need to do is look at the engagments the Rangers were involved in.  I believe the Rangers and Marines were on par with each other.

What Oly said.