A recent post by mike45acp (the one where he celebrates the end of the school semester by going around and asking a bunch of girls out on dates – good on ya btw!) brought up the subject of Ladder Theory.

Ladder Theory is based loosely on the FACT that when a man meets a woman, he places her on an imaginary ladder – women near the top are the ones he would really, really like to boink – the names of the ones near the bottom are mostly those of which you’d have to torture him to openly disclose.

Where as men have a ladder, women (especially hot women) are well known for having two ladders.  One identical to the man’s above, and one, unfortunately, just for friends.  The problem begins when you meet a hot girl you’d really like to nail, and you try showing her that you’re a (to borrow the most overused phrase ever on Match.com) “down to earth nice guy with a great sense of humor”, the EXTREME danger of you ending up on her “friend” ladder instead of her “fuck” ladder is frighteningly real.  

You know you’re on the “friend” ladder when she says stuff like – “Aw, you are just such a NICE GUY”, and, “I’m moving Saturday – do you have a truck?”,  etc… Sadly, when that happens, the women becomes PHYSICALLY UNABLE TO THINK ABOUT YOU IN A SEXUAL MANNER.  As in, “I just never think of Ted in that way, ew.”

And this is where Intellectual Whoredom comes in – an Intellectual Whore is a concept based loosely on an old Woody Allen joke where well-to-do Brainiacs married to hot, but vacuous, women find themselves so starved for intelligent conversation that they are forced to pay for quick, back alley, discussions with smart women.  (In Ladder Theory by the way, it is very, very rare for a woman to be an intellectual whore – because – I mean, well - come on).  

On the other hand, her “fuck” ladder is usually over populated with aspiring musicians, slimy disc jockeys, and loser bartenders - but - they all are unable to stimulate her mentally.  They’re often rude, forgetful, and smell.  Now, her reasons for her attraction to them are, to put it mildly, vaporous, but nonetheless could fill volumes.  These "men" just can’t carry on a meaningful or coherent conversation about science, politics, or relationships – they’re not "fun to hang out with",  like... you... her “bud” on the friend ladder: The Intellectual Whore.  Good bye, farewell, auf wiedersen, aideu.. to virtually any chance of you nailing her when this becomes apparent to either or both parties. EVER.

“So what’s wrong with just being friends with a girl” some fag in the back will say – well, what’s wrong with it is this:  Have you ever tried to jump from one ladder on to another?  That shit is perilous!  You risk severe injury my man.  The need to determine which ladder you are on EARLY is imperative for the healthy establishment of any relationship (not to mention your own mental well being).

Unfortunately what happens, and what has happened to me personally several times, is that you’re clueless about Ladder Theory and after meeting (one of) the girl(s) of your dreams, you end up on the “friend” ladder WITHOUT EVEN FUCKING KNOW IT.  You don’t realize that you have to try the potentially lethal “ladder jump” until after you’ve finished installing a new stereo into her mom’s car.  Up to that point your libido has been satisfied by the mere prospect that your brave and shining intellect may someday bridge the gap between the friendly hug and full-on coital exploitation.  “Hey, the safe thing here is to just bide my time.  What’s wrong with being an Intellectual Whore?  It could be my way IN.”  Well it ain’t.

Your only hope as an Intellectual Whore is to fall asleep with her on her couch, FULLY CLOTHED, after listening to her cry and sob on and on about some piece of shit band loser that dumped her for no reason.  Fully blue balled, and with the nervous twitch reaction time of a beagle puppy, at this point chump, you’ve been promoted to the position of Cuddle Bitch.  That’s right Cuddle Bitch, go home the next day, take a lonely cold shower, and then fill your car up with guns.  We’re going on a multi-state shooting spree – because we know, WE KNOW, that tomorrow night she’ll be getting railed multiple times by the very same loser you were comforting her over, and there’s just no chance of this changing.  EVER.

So that’s my take on basic Ladder Theory – anybody else care to chime in on the subject?


[Edited to add - Yeah, I voted "Bingo", not afraid to admit I made a few mistakes - now I'm wiser for it!]

When I was in law school, a buddy of mine and I would go to the bars and "play up" the ladder theory.  

We'd meet a group of girls, both focus on the same girl, and then -- and this was key -- one of us would "say all the right things" to get firmly planted on the friends ladder, while the other would be somewhat arrogant, cocky, and lewd -- usually, in the context of the other guy, winding up on her "boink" ladder.  We usually played it up to the extreme.  The guy who was going to be "friends" would keep his persona as a law student, while the other guy would act as if he were a building framer, auto mechanic, or out of work guitar player.

Worked almost every time.  

You also need to go over to John Ross's site and read his words of wisdom.....
If you want someone to talk to, call one of your friends......I am here to make the walls shake....

Any body here listen to Tom Lykis? (sp?)
Sounds like something he would cover, if he hasn't already. Women are, never mind.

I'm not a cuddle bitch nor do I play one on TV.  Never been either.  Women want to cry over being treated badly by a "bad boy."  I tell them WTF did you expect.  Leave the jerk or STFU.  Amazingly they still come back for more advice.

Also, very hip now is "the custom chopper mechanic/creator"...  If you've got sleeve tattoos and drop a little something about having did a little time for cooking meth - the danger of ending up on the "friend" ladder is all but negligible.

As good as your entire rant is --and it's excellent-- it can all be distilled down to this sentence. Well done.

i am going to try the ladder theory, (especially the part about being a jerk)

anyways whats the best way for a fairly nice guy to be rough and dangerous a hole type? any tips? should I bring up the cooking meth part?

Mike, its not so important to be a jerk.  

Rather, the essential key is avoiding actions/statements that will get you stuck on the "friends" ladder.  

I just went through two months of charade with a woman who I knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, had put me on her "sex" ladder, but for whatever reason (probably my divorce) wanted to stay "friends."

Well, it was only a matter of time.

Lets just say that this morning when Aerosmith came on the radio singing "I'm Baaaaack.... I'm baaaack in the saddle again," I just grinned.

I made the deadly ladder jump once. Big mistake.
She already had a key to my place and started showing up unannounced.
Long story short, the friendship ladder got cut up and thrown in the fire eventually and it was messy.
I lost a good friend over it. Turns out I liked being on her friendship ladder.
I did like the sex though and I dont get to make those decisions...the little head does.

Works like that... "Life is stranger than shshshshit".

You know, after 7 years at college (BS, MS), I was never able to find any data to contradict the 'ladder theory'.  I still find that it is true in observations.

However, I was able to successfully make that jump from the friendship ladder to the romance ladder.  Guess I got lucky... she's my wife now.

You don't need to be a jerk, just don't give anything for free.  No comforting, no "talks", no help carrying anything.  Nothing.  Everything you do for her has to be with the [red]expressed[/red] attitude, "What's in it for me?"

As soon as she realizes that "you're there no matter what", then you become "sweet" and screwed (only figuratively).  She loses respect for you, even though you may not see it.  You become a friend, and girls don't bang their friends.

Adopt a new, cavalier, "who gives a shit" attitude.  "Oh, you want to go to the mall?  Knock yourself out, I'm going to the club."

I could go on and on here, but this should get you started.

Aloofness wins.

Hmm very interesting so I amagine stuff like opening doors or letting her in the car first just makes you look like a pussy??

Should I blast mettallica in the car?

The Ladder Theory is a great read.

Also rent [b]Tao of Steve[/b] and [b]Swingers[/b].

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Oh, wrong thread.

Damn!

I could have used this ladder theory stuff hmm...about 25-30 years ago.

Makes sence to me.

Danny

That's kinda catchy.

Boys you can make it alot simpler.....there are two lists with anybody [men or women] doable and not doable, if the person thinks your a hottie, your are on the doable list, if not you go to the friend/not on a bet list.

By the way........11% of you that responded to this post are queer as a three dollar bill.

It occurs to me that taking advice on getting into a woman's pants from a homosexual is about as smart as taking advice on branch transfer logarithms from a Liberian [i]juju[/i] priestess.


Then maybe that old canard about 10% of the population being homosexual is true!



But I wouldn't bet on it.

ummm....  No, no, no, no, no, no, no.  

If a man finds a woman to be beautiful and to have a hot body – they CAN NOT and will never be “just friends”.  Can you understand that?  A guy will always be looking for a way in (and won’t stop until he gets there)!  Visit this same man on his last night down at an all-inclusive resort in Jamaica OK?  When the Red Stripe/Rum balance has achieved perfect apogee, he will see his “ladder” (or "list" as you try to put it) compress to the point of density that it rivals a dying sun.  And we all know what can happen to a dead sun right?  It becomes a Black Hole capable of sucking ANYTHING with an X chromosome into its hotel room.  Men have one ladder.

Now conversely, when a woman meets a man she finds handsome and to have a hot body, there’s a very good chance that he’ll end up right on the FUCK LADDER.  Not up by Eddie Vedder or Lenny Kravitz mind you, but at least right above her usual UPS delivery guy and Richard Ramirez.  

But what if, for whatever stupid reason (and this is usually the guys fault), she puts him on the FRIEND LADDER?  Here he’ll be sharing the rungs with her Priest, Gynecologist, and (that’s right baby) gay male friends at work.  He’s on the friend ladder because she doesn’t want to ruin their (what she thinks is a) WONDERFUL FRIENDHIP.  I don’t know about you – but as a guy – I have enough friends (and sometimes, too many).  Women, on the other hand, never do (they have a real hard time getting along with each other I’ve noticed).  Friends are hard currency in their cold world.  They’re like cars, bikes, and guns to them (a simile we can all understand I’M SURE).

At the outside limits of hope she’ll be saving you for her “nice” Jewish friend who is currently in a failing marriage with some loser.  She’d like to hear about her friend and you committing the sex act, but that’s it - and only because it’ll give her something to gossip about.  You want to nail her?  You’ll have to initiate it.  You must separate yourself from the FRIEND LADDER forever and ever (assuming you survive the jump of course – best of luck to you brother!).  Women have two ladders.

Now alluding to what you’ve written above, Chris Rock has espoused the theory that women “keep” male friends around for “emergencies” – he refers to this as something along the line of the “dick-under-glass-to-be-broken-only-in-an-emergency”.  This theory does not dilute ladder theory in the least – if the balloon is going up (i.e. the TV is doing a live remote from NORAD and they’re showing ICBMs inbound), ladders bend, melt, sway, and otherwise distort in a random manner.  It’s a good excuse to fuck (about 4 million times better than “I was drunk” to be sure).

Women have two ladders - just ask any of your HOT female friends.  And, in doing so, you must see that [u]men only have one ladder[/u] – it is a very hard thing to admit but nothing to be ashamed of.  And to be honest – I’ve been there my friend (been there, bought the T-shirt.  Threw up on said T-shirt, cleaned it, and now use it to wash the rims of my car).

Hi, my name is [b]pale_pony[/b] and I'm a reformed Cuddle-Bitch.

I wish I had found the Ladder Theory years ago. Kids, listen to me. There WILL be a test on this material!

edited to add: The late, great, [b]Sam Kinison[/b], a true prophet of our time who was cruelly taken from us all too soon, also saw the "Cuddle-Bitch" and appropriately named him an "Emotional Tampon". That is to say the male who is "just like a brother" who is to be used once a month or as necessary, like when needing a shoulder to cry on or a friend with a pickup truck to help her move out of the worthless boyfriend's place.

Ladder Theory?

It sounds more on the lines of Maslow's Hiearchy.

As in what need you are at in life.

I have absolutely no idea what that is supposed to mean.  

How dare you sully my thread with that crap.

I DEFINATELY believe in theory of two female ladders.

As a  disabled guy, I get placed IMMEDIATELY in the "friend" catagory, no matter how I act towards the female in question.

And usualy the  only gals who would date a disabled guy are gals who can't snag anyone  else.

No, it's not cynicism  or self-pity...... it's reality based on years of experience.

CKMorley

I got that.

(finally)


And CKMorely, in 1989 I was dumped by a girl who went for a blind guy.

LEMME tell ya- I'm unemployed, ex-junkie,deadhead, who never bathes and I date a stripper. NO shit i'm serious about this.and most of her friends are strippers. When I go to the club to pick her up I see the other strippers boyfriends as well, all chumps like me! while these bankers and other professionals spend like tons o cash on them at the club and don't get a thing for it (well somegirls...)! go figure out women alls I know is my formula works for me!

Ladder Theory in action!

So, if I skip showering a few  days and tell the stripper my cane and limp are the result of a horrible wreck, while on my hog, when trying to evade the cops 'cause I was drunk, armed and carrying a pound of meth, I'll score with a stripper ?

Gonna have to try that out sat night.

CKMorley

Why wait!?!

You know you are on the wrong ladder if she openly discusses the pros and cons of her birth control with you...in the OFFICE.  Just happened to me.  But she would be 100% pure TROUBLE.  I pity the man who gets hitched to her.

I don’t know anything about this women, what she looks like, where she’s from – but I do know this:  [red]I LOVE HER[/red]

Amen brother. Damn I miss him. Did you see him on Married with Childern the other night?

I saw the Christmas "Married with Children" as well.  I miss him too...a drink to Sam.

As for the ladder theory...after 28 years of existance I can concur that the ladder theory is a scientific fact.  I've seen it, and never kbnown an instance where it did not hold true.

I just wish someone had clued me in on this prior to going to college...I wasted several years of school with my ignorance.

I think some of you guys are misapprehending the "ladder theory."

Getting placed on the "sex" ladder in the first place is a function of your looks, money, style, and attitude.  Most of us are "average" in these areas, so we generally have a chance with all but the most "incredible" (and therefore, bitchy nasty evil) women.  

Despite the fact that your characteristics might make a girl want to bone your brains out, you can nevertheless "fall into" a role as a cuddle buddy.  Being an asshole does not put you on the sex ladder automatically.  Actually, my view is that guys who either have so much money or such innate good looks that they always wind up on the sex ladder are naturally inclined to "be" assholes, given that they are usually entitled to getting their way no matter what they do.  

Hope that made sense.