I would probably think they can't hit you anymore? but is the cruelty still there? So are the DI's still heartless or are we experienceing a kinder friendlier PC military?

I would amagine most of them can't truely hate you?

Yes and No.

Yes they are still as hard as titainium woodpecker lips.  No, striking recruits is not an acceptable training method.  I seriously doubt very many DI's are or ever were truely heartless.  The reason they are hard is to prepare the soft youth of our society for the rigors of war, both mentaly and physicaly.  So in a way almost incomprehensible to the uninitiated, DI's love their recruits like their little brothers.  Tough love, if you will.

Cruelty is in the eye of the beholder.  Which is more cruel.  The rigors of hard, demanding, unyeilding Recruit training, or being in combat unprepared?






edited to correct a few of the typos.  The ones I did not correct are there because I like it that way...

Well put DPeacher!

What Dave said.

Was the DI in FMJ realy a DI at one time?I was told he was,but it's more than likely a mith.

Yes!!!!

R.Lee Ermy was a Marine Corps Drill Instructor during the Viet Nam War.  In fact, Kubrick did not capture the true essence of a Marine DI in the original script.  Ermy came in to read for the part, and pointed out the BS lines, so Kubrick turned on a tape recorder and let Ermy start in just like he was back on the Drill Field.  What you see on screen during the Boot Camp sequence is as real as can be captured on film...except for the part where GySgt Hartman gets shot.  

rleeermey.com

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Try an entire YEAR of this at a military academy. True, it was physical the entire year, but it was a mental mindf$#@ for sure. It began around 1 July for basic. Once basic completed and the academic yearr began, it turned more mental rather the primarily physical nature of basic. It lasted all the way until the FOLLOWING Apr/May. Now, it only last until about Thanskgiving at the academies. It is an ongoing debate amongst grads/current cadets about whether this is better/worse.

On a side note, my 3 degree year (sophomore year), after having just survived my shit year, FMJ came out. My buddies and I went to see it in the theaters, got real drunk, and went back and used every R. Lee Emery line on our unknowing smacks. Since they couldn't leave, they couldn't see the movie so they had no idea. I would imagine we turned into instant assholes to them.

In general, I think it is a 'kinder and gentler' military these days. I have even heard of 'time-out' cards issued to basics to use for when it gets too tough and they need a break from the pressure (WTF????). I don't personally agree that it should be like summer camp for kids, but I don't think you have to completely break one's will to accomplish what is needed in the military these days. We don't use the military in the same way as we used to. They are agents of nation building and good will, global policemen if you will. Cold blooded killers is only a every once in awhile thing for our military these days.

NO timeout cards, no stress cards or anything like that are issued.  Everybody is told stories about them, but nobody you run into ever has seen one.
I swear, stress cards must be the most under-wraps secret program that government has ever operated.  Pictures from the secret network of caves the aliens built under Area 51 are MORE likely to be leaked than examples of the stress card [:D]

Does that include the military academies as well? I didn't have the usual basic that most people got. I didn't enlist/get drafted.

As a former Army Drill SGT I have to say Your 100% correct.
    FREE

never knew you were a drill sgt freefall, great

Don't kid yourself,[b]thompsondd[/b].  I spent over a year in MOS training after Boot Camp, and the mind fuck went right along with it.  At the beginning of my 3rd enlistment, I found myself back in school for another year learning a new MOS as an NCO.  The school staff had you by the balls because on one hand you are the NCO and on the other you are a student, so you were damned if you do and damned if you don't.  Not to mention 13 weeks at the SNCO Academy going through the Sergeant's Course and the Staff Sergeant's course.  I left the Corps before attending the Gunnery Sergeants Course.  Screw up at one of the SNCOA courses and you can kiss your career goodbye, as you are almost guaranteed to be at your terminal rank.  Bad juju if you are only a Sergeant because you won't make your 20...

Not to rain on your parade or slight your service in any way, but I don't think you were a Marine.  EVERY Marine is still there to do EVERYTHING like we "used to", the killer instinct is still groomed with vigor.  After GW1, standards went UP in the Marines, while standards and training were cut in the other branches.  PFT's got harder, the SNCOA went from 1 course to 3 courses, 4 weeks of MCT were added to the 13 weeks of Boot Camp and is mandatory for all MOS's.  Kinder, gentler my ass. [:)]

The so-called "time-out" cards are an urban myth.  As are the stories of DI "cruelty".  You cannot effectively turn civilian boys into fighting men by being cruel, and the military knows that.  Obviously, there are a lot of mind games, but that is part and parcel to the process, and is done for a purpose.

so the DI's don't make you eat dog shit or try to get other recruits to give you a blanket party?

It isn't common for a recruit to be physically abused during boot camp. It does happen once in a while, and usually ends the career of the DI who did it. Marine Recruit Training isn't as hard as it used to be, but it still isn't easy.

My best friend had Emery as a DI. My buddy survived the Nam, so the Gunny must have taught him something.

I haven't served(CJ/LEO Training) but most of my close buddies have. They all tell me the physical abuse comes from other recruits. The beef and fighting is always present.

My buddy Issaiah just got back from basic at Benning(BTW he got his expert 38 out of 40). Anywho, he had a bunch of fight stories to tell. One of which he just came back from a FTX for 3 days and he tried to catch some z's in a locker and 1 dude and three of his cronies tried fucking with him by constantly shoving him while he slept in his locker. He said he was so tired and full of rage he exited and kicked the guy 5 times in his face(he's always been quite hot-headed).

He said nobody fucked with him ever again after that. He also added nobody wanted to pair up with him on the Pugil stick course.

my buddy went through basic this spring and when he got out i asked him about the stress cards.  i guess he had heard of them so he made one for a joke...it did not work out well for him to say the least.  

he's in korea now.
[img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/078529.jpg[/img]

Well here is a pic of me and my family with Sam Elliot. He stayed in our barracks along with Chris Cline after they did the Infiltration course. They were filming "We Were Soldiers" at FT Benning. I met Mel Gibson he was a normal down to earth guy. I got to be a extra one night(made $150 for 7 hrs sitting around and 3 hours of work)
   FREE

[img]http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL16/709417/1194623/16976458.jpg[/img]

really there is that much fighing in basic?

I went to basic in 1966 at Ft Jackson during the build up for Vietnam.  All our DIs were Korean War vets and a couple of WWII vets.  They were as hard as nails.  Our 1Sgt was a survivor of Corridor and would not take anyone trying to slack it.

They harassed the hell out of us.  I think that R Lee would have been a welcomed relief at times.

They use to wake us up in the middle of the night and make us go outside and do an hour of hard PT or harassment shit just for the fun of it.  They carried sticks around and beat us on the helmet liners whenever we made a minor mistake.  We didn't get a moments peace until the last week or so of Basic.

The first time I fired at a target with my M-14 I missed the paper and the DI went ballistic.  He beat me over the head and made me low crawl around the whole front part of the range for an hour before I could return to shooting.  Needless to say I didn't miss too much after that.  

I think they started changing Army Basic around 1970 or 1971.  By that time most of the Korean war vets were out.  The last of the "brown boot" army was gone by then.

I dunno, I'm just relaying  friends info.
3 of my buddies in the Army stated they got into fights during basic and a Marine buddy of mine, well he went through his 4 years getting into fights all along the way.

They never got caught so they say.

Wonder what's the penalty is you are caught brawling?

god help recruits that get caught fighting in basic. They will wish they were dead. No there is not. I'd have to call BS on that story. those lockers would not be conducive to any kind of sleep. Not to mention in basic you would rather die than mess up your locker.

mike

they told us never ever get in a fight with someone else in the military!

oh and its good to hear beer slayer say that its not that common.

Man that's cool, FREE!

I don't remember ever saying what I was? I'm sorry that I missed the part where this was a Marine only discussion. [>Q] FYI - I do have some limited ties to the Corps, including enlistment, but they are outside the scope of this discussion.

I don't remember ever saying that is was a Marine only discussion. [:D]  I tried to convey that the Corps still puts a heavy emphasis on mass murder and destruction of enemy combatants and their equipment using everything from bare hands to nukes.  In that regard, RTR still does it the way they used to.



Some folks have mentioned blanket parties.  I went through Boot Camp in '84.  I know of two that occured in my Platoon.  The DI's did not encourage the second one...They didn't investigate them after the fact either.  There are only so many times large groups of people will put up with being punished for the actions of a single individual.  In Boot camp, the penalty for fucking up is sweat, but you pay in blood on the battlefield.  One guy got a busted lip, the other had a bruse over his eye that matched the tread pattern on the heel of a combat boot.  Pretty cheap price to pay when you consider just how serious the business is.

Back to the movie "FMJ" - Remember that during the Viet Nam war period, recruit training was shortend, and the vast majority of recruits would be headed to Nam.  The DI's HAD to shove ALL of the training into 2/3rds the time.  A swift shot to the diaphram, a slap across the face, or a brief choke, is just the ticket to get someones undivided attention and send the message home in as little time as possible.  With WEEKS cut out of training, the DI's didn't have time to bend a recruit for 30 minutes to achieve the same results.  It's not meant to be cruel.  It is meant to prepare for combat.

I did get in a fight in Infantry school about a week before graduation..this dickhead had been fucking with me the entire cycle, and I finally had enough - broke my fucking hand on his head.  No consequences were given.

My best friend joined the Corps in late 1980. He told me of the one time he got "hit" in boot camp.

They were in formation learning the manual of arms. They were at shoulder arms and the DI "adjusted" his hold - shades of "4 inches Pyle, 4 inches!" Then my friend reached behind his back with his off hand to check where his other elbow was supposed to be. Of course, the DI noticed and slapped the rifles handguards. Thus driveing the rifle into the side of my friends head. "I never did that again." [:D]

So, techincally, my friend was not struck by the DI. He was struck by his rifle. I imagine some bending of the rules still goes on. But gross physical contact is not allowed.

Ours were'nt too tough,but then again basic was not hard either(try dishwasher/prep-cook at a toni beachfront restaraunt).However,the last job I would EVER want to do is be a drill SGT.I don't know how they ever have anything of a homelife,lousy hours and making sure your gear is STRAC,plus the responsibility(think about it,most are homesick and have never been out of the city/suburbs).As for fighting,we had this fatass who was going Airbourne EXCEPT he could'nt pass the physical to go,his daddy was a SGTMAJ in  the 82nd,anyway this dumbass was always talking racist shit,a black troop finally stomped his ass but good.