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Posted: 11/26/2003 7:10:41 PM EDT
[#1]
The most amazing thing about the epidemic is how few people know about it. It killed more people than WWI and yet almost no one knows about it.
Also very interesting was how it knocked out the strong & young. I wonder if we will ever see another pandemic like it. I sure hope not. |
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Posted: 11/26/2003 7:49:24 PM EDT
[#2]
I guess I read too fast.. I didnt see where is talked about the 1918 epidemic.. |
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Posted: 11/26/2003 8:04:34 PM EDT
[#3]
Spanish influenza.
It killed more soldiers than bullets did in the Great War. Eric The(GranddadToldMeAllAboutIt)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 11/26/2003 8:16:19 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Spanish influenza. It killed more soldiers than bullets did in the Great War. Eric The(GranddadToldMeAllAboutIt)Hun[>]:)] It spread like wildfire through the military camps- we had 4.4million men warehoused waiting shipment to the front. You can imagine the crowding and the ad-hoc nature of the housing they had to be kept in. It got out into the population, but though it was shocking to the public, it was oddly short lived. Once the theaters, and other public gathering places were shut down and quarentines imposed for those who showed flu symptims it vanished as quickly as it came. SARS is the only thing to appear since that was even close to being that contagious. |
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Posted: 11/26/2003 8:19:46 PM EDT
[#5]
Speaking of the flu.
Four Children in Colorado Die From Flu Wed Nov 26,11:26 AM ET Add Health - AP to My Yahoo! DENVER - Three more children have died of flu-related illnesses in Colorado, bringing to at least four the number of influenza deaths in the state this season, officials said. A 2-year-old and a 21-month-old died at the Children's Hospital in Denver in the past week, hospital officials said Tuesday. They did not release any other details. In Larimer County, health officials said an 8-year-old boy died of the flu. Family members identified the Larimer victim as 8-year-old Joseph David Williams of Wellington, who died Monday. "It happened so quick and so sudden," Joseph's father, Scott Williams, said Tuesday. "He was fine. He wasn't even that sick." A 15-year-old who had the flu died at Children's last week and was believed to be the first flu death in the state this season. That child and the 2-year-old had medical conditions that made flu especially dangerous to them, health officials said. The other two children had been healthy. While it's mostly the elderly who die of the flu, children are often hospitalized with it, and there is some indication that the flu is an underreported cause of death in children, said Dr. Ned Calonge, Colorado's chief medical officer. "We had child deaths last year, but not this many and not this close together," Calonge said, adding that he did not know whether the children who died had been vaccinated. Last week, officials at the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (news - web sites) in Atlanta warned that this flu season could be worse than usual, partly because this year's vaccine does not exactly match the strain doctors are seeing so far. The virus changes slightly over time, a change doctors call "drift," which is why doctors suggest getting a new flu shot every year. In an average year, the disease infects up to 20 percent of the U.S. population, killing about 36,000 Americans and hospitalizing 114,000. Colorado has had 3,399 confirmed cases of the flu this season, the Colorado Department of Public Health (news - web sites) and Environment said Tuesday. That included more than 1,100 cases reported between Thursday and Monday, the most dramatic surge in the virus in at least five years. "It's crazy," said Denver pediatrician Dean Prina, who saw 40 children Monday. "It started earlier this year and seems more intense. It's among the worst flu seasons I've seen in my 23 years." Colorado, Texas and Nevada have the most widespread outbreaks so far, according to the CDC. Officials said the actual number of cases is probably much higher than the reported number because most adults with the virus don't see a doctor. |
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Posted: 11/26/2003 8:20:49 PM EDT
[#6]
It is inevitable that one day we will see another virus that sweeps the globe and kills millions, perhaps billions. With modern transporation and movement of people, all it will take is a mutated virus that is as contageous as the common flu, with the mortality of the 1918 flu and we will see a tremendous toll.
Here in the "civilized" world with all our resources it is possible we will be able to save many from death while less developed nations could have higher rates. The Spanish Flu of 1918 had an infection rate of 28% in the US and a mortality rate of 2.5%. Put in perspective, that means today with a population of 300 million we would have 84 million infected, and 2.1 million dead. Consider what Africa and parts of Asia would experience. It's scary to think about. This is why the CDC was so terrified of SARs. It was reacting differently to normal flu bugs in that the healthy and strong were as hard hit as the elderly. Lucky for us it was not very contageous. Nothing we can do about it. When it hits it will happen so fast we'll never see it coming. Be good to have enough food and water to be self sufficient for a couple weeks tho. Never know. |
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Posted: 11/26/2003 8:23:27 PM EDT
[#7]
Some give the flu credit for ending WWI. Too many sick soldiers to keep fighting. Once peace was decided upon, it delayed the end of the war because one of the signers of the peace treaty was too sick to travel. |
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Posted: 11/26/2003 8:35:08 PM EDT
[#8]
It was reported in the news that they think this recent outbreak that killed the four kids in Colorado originated in Texas. Could this have been the result of illegals coming into the country? If so, chalk up another reason to tighten the borders.
Here in Georgia we just had an outbreak of hepatitis due to a shipment of some bad onions. The probable cause was human waste from migrant workers defecating on the crops while working in the fields all day. Sounds like chemical warfare to me. |
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Posted: 11/26/2003 8:37:00 PM EDT
[#9]
I was reading the other day that the scientist's had revived that strain of the flu.
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Posted: 11/26/2003 8:52:09 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: I was reading the other day that the scientist's had revived that strain of the flu. Why? Let me guess... So they can try and kill it again?? If it gets loose they'll be hell to pay. Might even be stronger. Do you have the article where you read this? |
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Posted: 11/26/2003 9:13:12 PM EDT
[#11]
i took a class called "plagues through the ages" or something like that and it was sobering. they talked about that flu and said it killed like 1 in 8 of US residents. people would flee towns wholesale. one person gets sick and poof, everyone is gone.
they talked about "General plague" where napolean (i think?) marched to start a war with 100,000 troops and only 10,000 made it home. hardly any were lost to fighting. also discussed was how africa's productivity is severly hurt by deaths from AIDS. too many men are dying and unable to work the farms. no farming means that men go to the cities for work, where the AIDS cycle continues. so the disease is impacting their already suffering economy. |
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Posted: 11/26/2003 9:25:09 PM EDT
[#12]
... Sad news is: Nothing we can do about our lost loved ones other than honor
... Good news is: Antibiotics and a nowfound understanding of trauma |
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Posted: 11/26/2003 9:31:25 PM EDT
[#13]
Thing is, the United States was probably the least affected country in the world by the Spanish Flu.
Some say it was the huge distances it had to travel to spread around the country, it never went very far from a railhead. Others say it was the fondness for clenliness that bordered on obsession in America at that time. The stereotype of the "smelly" European was invented by the returning Doughboys of WWI. |
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Posted: 11/27/2003 4:34:02 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: ... Good news is: Antibiotics and a nowfound understanding of trauma WW We can treat the symptoms better than in the past, but truth is, the flu is a virus. Like AIDs and Herpes and other illnesses based on a virus we can not cure it. Antibiotics work agains germ based desease not viruses (or is that virii or virium or....) If the Spanish Flu hit the USA today, we would be devastated by it. We might lower the mortality rate some, but the losses would be in the millions I suspect. |
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Posted: 11/27/2003 6:18:01 AM EDT
[#15]
Why does everyone born have to live to be 120 years old?
When did the idea that diseases kill people become shocking? If population goes unchecked, we will run out of room and resources pretty quick. War, famine, plauge, they all act just like pruning bushes, or burning forests. More room for healthy new growth. SARS was/is blown way out of proprtion. How many people did it kill? Not as many as are killed by above ground back yard swimming pools! |
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Posted: 11/27/2003 7:04:45 AM EDT
[#16]
As their lungs filled … the patients became short of breath and increasingly cyanotic. After gasping for several hours they became delirious and incontinent, and many died struggling to clear their airways of a blood-tinged froth that sometimes gushed from their nose and mouth. It was a dreadful business. --Isaac Starr, 3rd year medical student, University of Pennsylvania, 1918. Worldwide, the mortality figure for the full pandemic is believed to stand somewhere between 30 to 40 million. So, with the world population today having more than tripled in the intervening years, what is to stop a modern flu pandemic from claiming upwards of 100 million lives? The answer, it seems, is nothing at all. |
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Posted: 11/27/2003 7:15:11 AM EDT
[#17]
During the Black Death in Europe entire counties were depopulated. Traveling any distance required a companion in case you got ill, so you didn't die along the way from dehydration. Traveling alone was thought reckless.
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Posted: 11/27/2003 9:01:37 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Quoted: I was reading the other day that the scientist's had revived that strain of the flu. Why? Let me guess... So they can try and kill it again?? If it gets loose they'll be hell to pay. Might even be stronger. Do you have the article where you read this? A quick search didn't turn up the article I read, but I did find a similar article http://www.sunshine-project.org/publications/others/gmoflu.html Don't make the link live. Cut and paste, please. dave |
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Posted: 11/27/2003 9:31:05 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: As their lungs filled … the patients became short of breath and increasingly cyanotic. After gasping for several hours they became delirious and incontinent, and many died struggling to clear their airways of a blood-tinged froth that sometimes gushed from their nose and mouth. It was a dreadful business. --Isaac Starr, 3rd year medical student, University of Pennsylvania, 1918. Sounds like alot developed secondary bacterial pneumonia--likely Strep pneumoniae given the description. How would they have known? No antibiotics anyway. Further, public health measures were dismal at best in those days. |
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Posted: 11/27/2003 9:41:50 AM EDT
[#20]
Back when I was a teenager in the 70's, there was an 80-something year old lady that lived at the next ranch down from my granpa's place. She still kept cattle at her age with the help of Border Collie dogs that she raised and sold. She told me that she buried a husband and three sons inside of 2-weeks during that same flu epidemic. It was easy to see in that area even 60 years later by just going to local cemeteries and seeing the groups of headstones in the family plots that were dated within days of each other.
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Posted: 11/27/2003 9:45:30 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: It is inevitable that one day we will see another virus that sweeps the globe and kills millions, perhaps billions. With modern transporation and movement of people, all it will take is a mutated virus that is as contageous as the common flu, with the mortality of the 1918 flu and we will see a tremendous toll. Here in the "civilized" world with all our resources it is possible we will be able to save many from death while less developed nations could have higher rates. The Spanish Flu of 1918 had an infection rate of 28% in the US and a mortality rate of 2.5%. Put in perspective, that means today with a population of 300 million we would have 84 million infected, and 2.1 million dead. Consider what Africa and parts of Asia would experience. It's scary to think about. This is why the CDC was so terrified of SARs. It was reacting differently to normal flu bugs in that the healthy and strong were as hard hit as the elderly. Lucky for us it was not very contageous. Nothing we can do about it. When it hits it will happen so fast we'll never see it coming. Be good to have enough food and water to be self sufficient for a couple weeks tho. Never know. Viruses have alot of surprises for us as yet. Influenza mutates at a relatively high rate and periodic pandemics are pretty likely though with vaccination and antivirals we can fight back for a change. [b]Mad Cow Disease/Transmissable Spongiform Encephalopathies[/b] are going to be a major threat if we are not very careful. I am going to post on this subject in the near future due to the threat I see. Lengthy subject though and I will get to it when I have a chance. SARS is not yet declared "dead". We will see how this winter goes. It is extremely difficult to control a respiratory virus. SARS is a coronavirus, not a flu virus. It is a newly mutated Cold virus. New mutations/ viruses are often particularly nasty. Innumerous examples including HIV. In 1000 years or so it will be not much more than a cold is my guess. Africa is just plain SOL. A bad influenza virus, SARS, major outbreak of TB, CJD, etc will devastate that continent due to the high rate of HIV. Dead men walking, many of them. It is all pretty scary isn't it? Take good care of yourself, quit smoking, and common sense hygeinic/public health measures. People often asume that you get a germ and get sick. Infectious dose of any pathogen is EVERYTHING so limit your exposure, learn to keep your hands out of your mouth, nose and especially eyes. Don't kiss your sick kids, etc. Keep toothbrushes separate, etc, etc, etc. |
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Posted: 11/27/2003 9:54:20 AM EDT
[#22]
My Great-grandma who just died two years ago was born in 1903. She was one of 13 children, 4 brothers were lost to WW1, 1 to the flu, two sisters and their mother as well. She was the oldest after that, ended up taking care of everyone including the one brother that came back with gassed lungs. She also talked about the depression a bit. Pretty interesting stuff when you take life the way it is now for granted and then hear of things like this from first hand accounts. Makes you realize it wasn't all that long ago.
_______________________________________________ Leagalize freedom! |
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Posted: 11/27/2003 10:04:33 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: I was reading the other day that the scientist's had revived that strain of the flu. Last I saw on Discovery channel a while back are that scientists are trying to find a DNA sample of what Spanish influenze was. They don't know if it is influenza virii or other type of bug, Kind of like SARS. When they get the chance to look over a corpse from the 1918 time frame they take samples. So far no luck!!! Flu usually takes a toll on the old and with the baby boom generation getting up there, a bad strain could be devastating. China and India have the most to be worried about since they are packed to the brim with people! |
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Posted: 11/27/2003 7:04:58 PM EDT
[#24]
Last I heard, virologists were suggesting that the 1918 Influenza Pandemic started off in a US military training camp, and the speed of it's spread was linked largely to the rapid movements of large numbers of men in connection with the war. The virus itself was thought to be a mutated flu bug, a super-infectious pneumonic (pneumatic? I dunno, the other half is the medic) flu.
I'm not particularly sure, but I believe SARS might be similar. My understanding is that it's a flu-spinoff which causes rapid pneumonia, the lungs fill up, and *poof*. It's obviously nowhere near as fatal, but whether that's due to the bug itself or the cool new toys we've developed in the last 85 years I can't say. The other half explained to me that in a hospital setting, a diagnosis of "SARS" is reached when the patient suddenly has the symptoms, and everything else is ruled out. Treatment is to keep the poor bugger alive until whatever it is stops trying to kill them. I'd love to see a good medical comparison of SARS and the 1918 'flu.. |
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Posted: 11/27/2003 8:00:32 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Last I heard, virologists were suggesting that the 1918 Influenza Pandemic started off in a US military training camp, and the speed of it's spread was linked largely to the rapid movements of large numbers of men in connection with the war. The virus itself was thought to be a mutated flu bug, a super-infectious pneumonic (pneumatic? I dunno, the other half is the medic) flu. I'm not particularly sure, but I believe SARS might be similar. My understanding is that it's a flu-spinoff which causes rapid pneumonia, the lungs fill up, and *poof*. It's obviously nowhere near as fatal, but whether that's due to the bug itself or the cool new toys we've developed in the last 85 years I can't say. The other half explained to me that in a hospital setting, a diagnosis of "SARS" is reached when the patient suddenly has the symptoms, and everything else is ruled out. Treatment is to keep the poor bugger alive until whatever it is stops trying to kill them. I'd love to see a good medical comparison of SARS and the 1918 'flu.. SARS is a Coronavirus which is one of several viruses with many strains which cause the common cold. It is apparently a mutation though this is still being worked out. One of our concerns about Influenza this year is that it is going to make diagnosis of SARS difficult if there is an outbreak as the symptoms are so similar. The incubation period is longer however-- 2 to as much as 10 days possibly for SARS, 6-18 hours or so for influenza though it could be slightly more with low infectious dose. Anyhow, this is why we are pushing influenza vaccination so hard. A concommitant outbreak of SARS and influenza could get out of hand rapidly as I am sure you can imagine. In any event, SARS is well documented to be a Coronavirus. |
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Posted: 11/27/2003 8:14:17 PM EDT
[#26]
Fascinating. The Neutral Observer looks forward to more posts on this subject.
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Posted: 11/27/2003 8:29:29 PM EDT
[#27]
Disease is live and well in the US Army, just ask anyone in my barracks or take my temperature- currently reading 101-degrees, and I've got a chest full of phlegm that makes me sound like Darth Vader when I breath....oh yeah, and I've gotten *better* since my four days last week spending 16hrs each in 40-50degree weather on rainy ranges qualifying with a myriad of weapons.....and I was this sick ten months ago when I was in Basic too.....Army doesnt know, nor care jack about any disease or virus that does not wholly incapacitate you....
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Posted: 11/27/2003 8:37:13 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Fascinating. The Neutral Observer looks forward to more posts on this subject. Check this out: [url]www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=217198&w=myTopicPop[/url] Also look for upcoming thread on Prion diseases. I'll get to it... |
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Posted: 11/28/2003 6:37:38 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: SARS is a Coronavirus which is one of several viruses with many strains which cause the common cold. It is apparently a mutation though this is still being worked out. One of our concerns about Influenza this year is that it is going to make diagnosis of SARS difficult if there is an outbreak as the symptoms are so similar. The incubation period is longer however-- 2 to as much as 10 days possibly for SARS, 6-18 hours or so for influenza though it could be slightly more with low infectious dose. Anyhow, this is why we are pushing influenza vaccination so hard. A concommitant outbreak of SARS and influenza could get out of hand rapidly as I am sure you can imagine. In any event, SARS is well documented to be a Coronavirus. Thanks for the correction, always nice to hear from someone who knows what they're talking about [beer] looking forward to the prion disease post, I'm a slut for good science! |
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Posted: 11/28/2003 12:02:24 PM EDT
[#30]
My grandfather was born in Norway in 1888. About 20 years of age he came down with the Spanish flu in North Dakota. The country doctor never was sure exactly how high his temperature reached. Grandpa had a full head of hair before the fever. After the flu he was bald for the rest of his life. He lived to be just short of 86 years old. One tough old Viking.
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Posted: 11/28/2003 12:50:37 PM EDT
[#31]
About two years ago I had to do some local historic research.
In this (at the time) small sized city they had to close three factories and turn them into mass hospitals to nurse the sick and about to die. That was because in so many houses the entire family was so sick they could not move and they had to be rounded up by the truck load and brought to the factories. The local library had a bunch of photos of the huge wards packed with people. In some cities they had to dig trenches in the parks and drop the bodies in covered with lime. They only had to do that here a few days, otherwise they could keep up with the bodies. |
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Posted: 11/28/2003 1:40:15 PM EDT
[#32]
The swine flu epidemic in 1918 was brought home from Europe by the troops, they were herded into transports for the boat ride home, infected everyone on board, it then spread through the US wherever they came back home.
rk |
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Posted: 11/28/2003 1:59:52 PM EDT
[#33]
I was watching the news today and they were saying that within the next ten years we will have an outbreak of flu equivalent in severity to the 1918 pandemic based on the resistence of flu strains they have been observing in recent years.
As for people not knowing about the 1918 pandemic, if Americans gave a damn about history, theres no excuse for NOT knowing about it...but most Americans seem to prefer being ignorant of anything that happened outside their own short lifespans, for some reason. |
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Posted: 11/28/2003 6:07:37 PM EDT
[#34]
This is part of a letter written in 1918 by a Dr. treating soldiers with the flu. Whole letter at http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/mmi/jmoodie/influen2.html#Pandemic%20influenza Camp Devens is near Boston, and has about 50,000 men, or did have before this epidemic broke loose. It also has the Base Hospital for the Div. of the N. East. This epidemic started about four weeks ago, and has developed so rapidly that the camp is demoralized and all ordinary work is held up till it has passed. All assembleges of soldiers taboo. These men start with what appears to be an ordinary attack of LaGrippe or Influenza, and when brought to the Hosp. they very rapidly develop the most viscous type of Pneumonia that has ever been seen. Two hours after admission they have the Mahogany spots over the cheek bones, and a few hours later you can begin to see the Cyanosis extending from their ears and spreading all over the face, until it is hard to distinguish the coloured men from the white. It is only a matter of a few hours then until death comes, and it is simply a struggle for air until they suffocate. It is horrible. One can stand it to see one, two or twenty men die, but to see these poor devils dropping like flies sort of gets on your nerves. We have been averaging about 100 deaths per day, and still keeping it up. |
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Posted: 11/28/2003 7:08:59 PM EDT
[#35]
My Dad lost a cousin and an aunt.
We know a lot more about how they spread. That one had a long incubation period and it got moving before it was recognized, but the massive response got it slowed way down. Not sure the civil libertarians would allow some of the measures these days. If you were a stranger you got locked up until ylu either came down with it or didn't. Guess if enough people thought it was germ warfare they might react properly. Course the tinfoil hat boys would start shooting as soon as Public Health tried to get things under control. I can sure remember the last of the polio scares. |
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Posted: 11/28/2003 8:27:18 PM EDT
[#36]
My grandfather fought in France in WWI, and he told the family when he returned home that he was much more afraid of dying when he came down with the flu in 1918 than he ever was in combat. He said he was one of a relatively small number of survivors in a hospital in France for American doughboys. My grandmother received notification from the War Dept. that he had died of the flu, & had been buried in France in an American cemetary. The family was a little surprised a couple of months later when he walked into the house and sat down at the table!!!
Our county was so rural and isolated at that time that the flu was not a major epidemic here, like in the Army camps or larger towns. |
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Posted: 11/28/2003 9:50:48 PM EDT
[#37]
Our county was so rural and isolated at that time that the flu was not a major epidemic here, like in the Army camps or larger towns. Well we were lucky as a nation that over 50 percent of the country still fit that description in 1918. |
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