I went out this last weekend and shot IDPA with a buddy of mine. It the 3rd time I've gone, and although it is generally enjoyable, I definitely have some issues with IDPA, or at least this group. I'll just list them.

1. You are disarmed at the outset, since they require that the range is cold. It is my understanding that IDPA supports CCW and is an association where "real world" scenarios and weapons are practiced. I think its two-faced to claim that, and then make everyone unlaod at the door.

2. They don't enforce the "real world" aspect when shooters have malfunctions. An example:

One of the "old guns" there started the second string of a two-string stage and his 1911 jammed. So he sits there and looks at it! His buds (running the match) let him get up, go fix it and then reshoot the string later. My buddy and I are back there muttering "fix it, damnit! go! fix it! They're lettin him off! Bullshit!"

3. They "old guns" running the show apply different standards to their buds and newer competitors. Another example:

On the last stage, I was first up. The second part of this statge was "pie-ing" (IDPA definition is is laughable) a corner and taking out two bad guys from about 2-3 yards proximity. They are about 2 feet apart, behind hard cover, with friendly infront of and between them. The requirement was classic A-B response on each bad guy. So I blazed in there, executed perfectly on the first guy, but on the second I transitioned up a little quick and my second "body" shot ended up in the head zone. Minus five points, but was it really a miss? So later, (I had left already), one of the good old boys gets up there and does the same damn thing. His bud was going to give him minus one, until my friend called them on the carpet.

4. "You must be within arms length of cover." Essentially they are training you to suck up the corners and crowd your cover.


5. In general, some of the gun handling skills out there are woeful. I would hate to think that some of those people, no matter how well they punch holes in the paper, actually carry a gun in the world with no training in gunhandling or tactics. For God's sake, if you spend the money on a weapon and intend to carry it in the real world, spend the time and money to get some trainging!

Before dispensing with this mini-rant, let me say this.There are some positives. I will give them this, they always have at least one stage where you have to shoot with only one hand. Of the five stages this weekend, three had multiple strings that required using only the dominant hand. One string used weak hand only. That's something I don't practice often so its a reasable accessment of skill under (moderate) time constaints.

As an active IDPA shooter and SO, may I address these issues?



This is purely for safety.  The SOs having control who is armed at the line greatly reduces the chance of an AD/ND.  Also, many hosting ranges require that shooters be cold unless at the line.  FWIW, you aren't disarmed, just your weapon is empty.  Depending what Division you are shooting, you still have 12-20 rds on your person.



Depending on the string of fire and the local match director, practical exercises can be reshot if there is a malfunction.  If you have a malfunction in a scenerio COF, you are on your own and clearing is done on the clock and no reshoots.



I can't address this, as I have not experienced what you state.  All I can say is if you are tired of the "old guns", be one of the "new guns".  Become an SO and/or match director.



I agree that such crowding is not tactically sound.  Why not address it to your match director - with examples.



Some of the gamesmanship and safety rules run counter to solid tactics.  However, IDPA is not a substitute for training or working on tactics. It's a game.

Twire, I just gave a quick look thru the IDPA rule book.

As far as I can see, there is NOTHING in the rule book about being within arms lenght of cover.
What it says is:


And so on.

I think its the place your shooting at, more than IDPA itself.

Also, your #1 is a direct result of your #5.

I agree, there are a lot of people out there who don't  want to learn how to properly handle guns but want to walk the walk in the shooting sports.

This is disheartening to hear ... I thought IDPA was supposed to be "real-world" action. Admittedly, a game version of it. Better than IPSC for that anyway. It *does* sound, however, like your main grievance is with the actual place you competed, not necessarily the IDPA itself.

jim

Thanks for the response. You have made some valid points.

My hope in competing in IDPA would be that the competition would enforce and reiforce solid tactics. Unfortunately, it is JUST a game to a lot of the shooters who participate.

You're probably right. I've always been the type of person who will honor the rules, however foolish they might be. Next time though, I'll contest the cover issue.

I've seen it more than a few times that when an "old gun" has a shot touching the line, they give it to him. Newbie shot touches the line -- tough luck! All I can ask for is consistency. For that reason I don't want to be an "old gun".

When I shoot IDPA, it seems like I'm one of the few people taht shoots from concealment. Everybody open carries.

I don't feel bad about taking 10th place, when I'm shooting from concealment, and useing a USP compact against full size 1911s and Glocks.

IDPA is, and always will be, what you make of it.  I hear complaints like yours all the time, but if your main goal is training to be captain-tactical, then why do you care what your score is?

I don't know you, so I thought I'd ask, what is your training background.  You talk about the way they do things being "laughable" but don't mention what makes you qualified to determine good or bad tactics.

I really dont care what more score is, I do it mostly for fun, and to better my shooting.

I've always had a good time. Its a lot more fun that just standing there shooting paper.

Exactly!  Once you learn to ignore the score as compared to others, you'll have a shitload more fun.  Unless of course all you're there for is the competition, and that's fine too.

I found myself getting caught up in worrying about everyone's score, and started not having fun.  Now I just go to shoot.  I know for myself whether or not I did well on a stage.  Currently my goal for all stages is to have zero down, even if it takes me a bit longer to complete the stage.

Can't comment on IDPA as I shoot IPSC but some rules should be similar.

You complain about thier gun handling skills then want everyone packing live guns all the time. Not too smart.

In IPSC if the shooter's equipment fails then they zero the stage. They may repair thier gun for the next stage.

As for cover IPSC does not use cover. We are so fast that no threat could harm us so cover not needed.

I am sure you can download the rule book from thier website and read up on the rules.

One thing that local clubs slip into is running thier local matches letting some of the rules slide because it's just thier friendly group no biggie. The problem comes when this competitor who has learned these bad skills at the local match and pays his $200 for a national level match and is disqualified from the match for not obeying the rules that they do not enforce at the local matches.

[ROFL]

Nice shot, there, David... yer gonna get clobbered for it, but it was worth it!!!  [:D]

I don't really care about score that much. Hell, on my best day I'm still middle of the pack.



We are consistently instructed to "pie" corners and engage in tactical order, or some such. Then guys basically lean their whole bodies, minus feet around corners and blast away. Seems really bad to me.

As for qualifications, not sure what you would consider qualified. I am not LEO, SWAT or any other high speed operator. But I have been to a few classes and learned a little about what gives a person better opportunities to remain alive. My training is as follows:

[b]Shootrite Firearms Academy[/b]
Site: Huntsville, Alabama
Lead Instructor: Tiger McKee

Defensive Handgun I  (8 hours)
Defensive Handgun II (8 hours)
Handgun Tactics I (16 hours)
Handgun Tactics II (16 hours)
Defensive Carbine (16 hours)
Carbine Tactics (16 hours)

[b]Suarez International[/b]
Site: various
Lead Instructor: Gabriel Suarez

Combative Pistol Concepts I (16 hours)
Combative Pistol Concepts II (16 hours)
Unarmed Tactics Against Armed Adversaries (8 hours)

[b]Rangemaster[/b]
Site: Memphis, Tennessee
Lead Instructor: Tom Givens

Five-day Combative Skills (40 hours)

[b]Thunder Ranch[/b]
Site: Mountain Home, Texas
Lead Instructor: Clint Smith

Handgun H.I.T. (24 hours)
Urban Rifle H.I.T. (24 hours)

Disarmed for safety ? BS.. How many people have been killed by "unloaded guns ?" IMHO "unloaded" firearms are MORE dangerous.
None of those formal training classes run a cold range...
If someone isn't competent enough to be on the line with a loaded, holstered pistol (let alone carrying it for defense), then they shouldn't be allowed at the match.

IDPA is a game plain and simple... It does apply *some* tactical lessons, but so does paintball, dating, sex, and driving to the stop'n rob.

I have seen some very well run IDPA match, VERY well run... I have also seen a lot that are totally laughable, everyother weekend, I_wana_be_a_gunfighter match. Like anoything in life, it depends on what crowd you fall into.

I agree completely, you said it better than I could.

real world example to

I know of some deer camps where all guns are kept loaded at all times so nobody is left questioning whether or not the gun is loaded.  folks just tend not to pick up other folks guns as much.  YMMV

Another consideration re: hot vs. cold ranges is that IDPA does not pay the rent, the insurance or own the ranges where these matches take place.

IDPA can lobby all they want, for hot ranges, but if the insurance underwriter or land owner says "cold range, or no range" guess whose gonna win?

The real meat-of-the-matter when it comes to running a Cold Range isn’t that you’re left defenseless in the face of the rampaging herds of Sandanistas which await you just on the other side of your gun range’s pistol berms…

It’s that the last fucking thing I need to hear as an SO is some fucking asshole behind me topping off as I’m trying to help someone through a stage.  

[size=6][b][I][u]If[/b][/I][/u][/size=6] people at an IDPA match or practice session could be trusted to handle their guns only at:[list][*]Designated Safety Areas, or[/*][*]The shooting line under the direction of an SO[/*][/list]I’d be [b]all for[/b] running a hot range – but as it turns out – you get new people all the fucking time – people you’ve never even seen before in your life –and just because they’ve got a pin from John Farnam and a ball cap from Thunder Ranch does not mean jack shit to me or anybody else.

Oh, and another thing: “Unloaded guns are more dangerous than loaded ones”?

[size=6][red][b][u]FUCKING GOOD![/u][/b][/size=6][/red]

Maybe people should start treating them that way then, huh? Ya think? [size=5][red][b]huh!?!?[/b][/size=5][/red]





Sweet!  [:D] (Oh wait!  Wrong smilie! I meant  [rolleyes])

Its a game. Its as real world as YOU make it. People will cheat at anything this is NO different.

Its cold because there are people who shouldnt be handling a gun to begin with you said it yourself.
How are the people running the match supposed to know who just bought their pistol and those who didnt ?

DID you have FUN [:)]

I have participated in a lot of different shooting gmaes over the years.  RIfle, pistol, shotgun.  Hi-power, IDPA, IPSC, trap, skeet, small bore.  You name it I've probably tried it.  

I have never, never participated in a shooting sport that permitted a hot range.  I can't believe we are even debating this.

As far as IDPA in particular, I've shot matches at several differernt ranges.  Some are better than others.  Some folks know the rules, some don't.  Some come up with interesting, challenging, almost real scenarios.  Some make up stuff on the spot. At least in these parts I've found less "good ole boy" networking in IDPA than in other shooting sports, but I may be lucky there.  I shot in a quasi IPSC league west of me not to many years ago that would change rules in mid match if the locals were losing.

Of all the "action" pistol sports I still think IDPA is the best bet for the average shooter.  

Agree. I guess my original point was not well stated.


I see your point. I do not envy the S.O. position. I have always been trained that there are only two places for a loaded handgun -- in the holster, or on the threat. Run a hot range, somebody whips out the pistol for show-and- tell and they're gone. No second chances.

I bitch about IDPA also, but it is the best "game" around.  All you have to do is watch what people show up wearing for guns and what they end up competing with.  Its a wonder to see people carry a glock 23 and then compete with a 34 or carry a Kimber ultra carry and compete with a full size 1911.

Basically its all about what you put into it.  Ignore the BS and put rounds down range.

After playing IPSC, I'm shooting IDPA and having fun.

I lent My rulebook out, but I think if your gun jams, you have to clear it on the clock. Get the gun back into action and keep going !

I have no problem with a "cold range". I've been to some non-sanctioned matches were guys are pulling out there guns and showing them to there friends. I prefer everybody keep there gun holstered until the Range Officer gives the "load and make ready " command. It a safety issue.


There a a few things about IDPA that annoy me.
Why I can shoot a 5" 1911 but not a 5" 625(revolver) is ridiculous. I think 5" revolvers should be allowed. I concealed a 6" 686 back in the 1980's.

I'm still trying to get used to the IDPA mag changes.  Sometimes I get in trouble for doing IPSC mag changes. Old habits.

Some IDPA guys get mad when I call it a game. As long as the targets don't return fire and the event is scored, I say it's a game. If it's a game, I play to win.

I think the idea of "use of cover" is a good idea, but prone to inconsistancies in what constitutes using cover. Some RO's are more lax than others. This leads to differences in score depending on who's ROing the stage.


Overall, I think it's great fun.

Organized shooting events have to have rules and guidelines to ensure safety.  The lowest common denominators out there HAVE to be factored into this.  They have no control over who shows up, nor do they screen them based on their knowledge, training and skill level.

Even though it tries to be realistic, and does well, its still just shooting competition.  Liability require them to make the match safe, which is the exact opposite of what its trying to replicate - fluid, violent combat between humans, which has no "rules."

I am new to IDPA shooting. I tried it one time and I am hooked forever. I look forward to every match. I know up front that this is a match, and not any sort of formal combat training. I do get procedurals (Shooting out of tactical order, and failure to use cover properly) on a regular basis, and I am quite slow getting through each stage, but I have a great time. The comraderie is great.
Twire I am sorry you had a negative experience. Maybe you should become an RO and make a difference. I read through your list of credentials and IMHO the sport of IDPA would definitely benefit if you would choose to stick with it.

I'm an MD/SO at our local IDPA club. I think most of your concerns have been addressed. I'll just add my thoughts on "arm's length"/"crowding cover". Our club definitely preaches the problems with crowding cover. However, for a lot of scenarios, we state that the "start position" is "arm's length" from the barricade. The purpose of this is to ensure a consistent start position for all the competitors. If your start position is too close then step back at the sound of the buzzer. YMMV.

Regardless of the rules, I have quit shooting due to the type of people that were showing up at my local club (central texas area).  A bunch of goobers started showing up at our 3-gun matches wearing various "Thunder Ranch" apparel and making real asses out of themselves.  I'd had enough when my AR started doubling due to a walking trigger pin and I was trying to fix it.  In the mean time, everyone moved to the next stage of the match.  One of the dickhead new guys bellows out across the range that I needed to get over there becuase "guys like me" (not sure what that meant) need the brief the most....

I tried to be the good guy and asked this guy (not a RO/SO...just self-appointed master of all he surveyed) why I couldn't get the brief off to the side later - or - simply watch the other 20 shooters go thru and, gasp, figure it out myself.  He told me that things don't work that way on "his" ranges.  I very politely informed this guy that A) I'd won the last match at the range where I'd been shooting for the past year, B) I'd just returned from Iraq where the targets shoot back and strangely enough managed to handle my weapons safely without a scenario brief, then I left - although I wanted to tell the arrogant twit that I'd shot better men than him.....

Anyway after shooting IDPA in a few states it is my 'lil ole opinion that it seems to attract a few too many "gun store commandos" who want nothing more than to impress you with all the tactical saavy they've picked up from thousand dollar "tactical courses" or the latest issue of "Handguns" magazine.  Failing that, they far too often try to assert some sort of bullshit authority thru the use of "safety" or "tactical" considerations.  This may sound strage, but I could give a shit less what some postal worker from Waco has to say about my use of cover, or how I change magazines because he saw a Jeff Cooper video...pound sand, guy!!  These idiots are the same one who will cease fire a whole range complex to go down range on the local pistol range - even though there are 20 foot berms separating all the ranges!!! But god forbid you question them - becuase, hey, you can never be too safe.

Sadly, these 5%-ers have ruined me to organzied shooting - which is sad since I usually had a lot of fun, and shooting under a little stress during a match really illustrates what you need to work on at the range.

This turned into a rant of epic lenght - not my original intent, but, I feel better now.  Anyone else got similar experiences?

After reading through all of that, I couldn't help but wonder why you care so much?  You go to great lengths to say how you don't care about their opinions, but then tell us about how their opinions bother you so much.

Typical of so called operators who when they can't compete in the civilian competition matches would rather think up excuses why not to come back.

Good point about the other's opinions - I guess they matter in that I got tired of paying my 15 bucks to hang around a couple of nitwits...

As for being an "operator" I don't think I ever claimed to be anything very special - just a serving soldier in the US Army with an interest in shooting - and I competed fairly well, thanks very much. I mean, c'mon look at my handle -- M1 Tanker?  I suppose I thought it was pretty special, but not too many folks try and pick up chicks by saying they were an armor crewman...

I guess, in your book, being proud of doing one's duty as a soldier is claiming to be an "operator" or some other kind of poser, than I'm guilty as charged...I only bring it up to point out that things that are very important on the IDPA range (don't crowd cover, do good "tactical" mag changes, shoot every paper target twice - but head shots may or may not count...) don't count for a lot in real life...you change mags early and often, are happy to be behind anything solid and will be perfectly satisfied to shoot a fleeting target once if it will make him quit shooting at you for a minute or three.  I don't claim to have done these things while rappelling from a hovering blackhawk with cool camo paint and a bandanna around my forehead.  I simply claim to have survived - like many other men on this board.  I'd rather be lucky than good.

My point was that the fun of the shoots is diminished by folks who take the "tactical" portion of IDPA a little far, in my book.  If you don't want to "crowd cover," for example, then don't.  From where I sit, though, folks who go out of their way to make IDPA matches some sort of combat training program, where they continually offer their "expert" opinions on other competitor's technique ruin the intent of the match - to have fun and practice practical defensive pistol shooting.

I submit, though, that it is a GAME - the same thing that other folks have pointed out in this thread.  It has a few tactical applications - but most people pay their money to compete in a GAME.

You are the one who is too good to be shooting with local goobers not me, I try to shoot with goobers when ever possible. Goobers are good people.

IDPA is suppose to be fun way to compete in a practical manner with stock equipment for the average person. I go to IDPA matches to have fun and meet like minded people, not to learn how to shoot someone faster. I would take an actual combat course to learn how to do that. We do get a few tactical commandos from time to time. I listen if they have something worthwhile to say, and ignore them when they don't. To me it's all about mindset. I want to go and enjoy myself and see what everyone's using and learn about the sport. I refuse to let anyone ruin it for me. Most of the nicest and most helpful people have ever met were at the IDPA matches BTW.
All the negatives of the sport posted in this thread have not been my experience. I am very glad for that. It's good to have at least one thing to enjoy in life.  

Couldn't agree more.  As I keep saying, you're going to get whatever YOU want to get out of it.  If your goal is to find some people you can shoot better than and more tactical than, and then complain about them, IDPA can be that.  If you're looking to have some fun doing something other than standing still shooting the bullseye, IDPA can be that.  You get out of it what you want (and incidentally what you put in); nothing more nothing less.

I guess I just have the type of personality that the tactical-teds don't bother trying to preach to me.

m1tanker, as for your "change mags early and often" how is it that IDPA isn't geared towards that.  They simply advocate that you don't leave any ammo behind, which if you stop and think about it isn't really a bad idea.  Also, IDPA isn't about military tactics, it's about (however much or little) civilian tactics for someone that has a CCW.

I think that most that complain about IDPA shoots need to relax and go have some fun.  If you want to be captain-tactical and actually learn something, then go take reputable courses like Twire did. Just don't expect IDPA to be the same thing.

Rarely does someone say something on this board that really changes my thinking, but this line did. In a nutshell, my problem is that I expected IDPA to be the same as training. You're right, norman74, it's not the same and it never will be. Unrealistic expectations fueled my complaints.

I will continue to apply what I've learned in trainign scenarios to the IDPA format when appropriate, but I think I just need to chill out and shoot the piss out of the targets and enjoy. Damn, the references to being a tactical ted made me cringe. I met a few of those in several classes. That is NOT me. I am the guy in the Walmart cargo pants with the bright yellow Cheerios T-shirt shooting iron sights. NOT a gear queer.

[url]http://www.ofoto.com/PhotoView.jsp?US=0&collid=833219490103&photoid=672836521103&page=1[/url]

I think your yellow cheerios shirt would go well with my yellow tactical visor.
I have been shooting IDPA about a year now.  I initially went in thinking "wow, what great training" and was aggrevated by things like the 10 round limit.  So I changed gears & thought about it as a competition.  Problem is, all the IPSC rejects that would "game" the courses to death just aggrevated me again.  After a couple months of being aggrevated, I go now for me.  My goal is always zero down.  That's it.  I obviously try to do it as quickly as possible, but my goal is perfect accuracy for that course of fire, and no "innocents" hit.  No procedurals either.  So far I've managed it once on one stage, but goddamn it felt good.  My time wasn't the best, but it was pretty cool to see that big fat zero.  That gives me a goal to strive for, something to better myself on, and a way to feel better than everyone else if I need it ("yeah, his time was lower, but I got ZERO DOWN" lol).

Figure out what you want to get from it, and go with that.  That's what I like about IDPA, you can get what you want to out of it.  Training, gaming, or personal growth (how's that for a liberal term?).  It's all up to you.  If you ever make it down here to Ft. Lauderdale you can come shoot with my club, one of the oldest in the game.  They held an organized match even before Bill Wilson ever did.

norman74 has some of the most cogent advice regarding expectations. If you have questions about what IDPA is just check out the book...

[url]http://www.idpa.com/rulebook5-2-01/rulebook_information.htm[/url]

Edited to add: The primary reason for stressing the crowding cover issue has to do with range safety. Typically when you crowd cover your muzzle is pointed straight up or down.

I went zero down through all five stages the second time I went. My time sucked, but I had specifically set my goal as zero down that day.
And that was with my HK USP40. I tried CDP last week.