hopefully a poll will follow.

I'm curious to know if you went or not, and whether or not you think it's valuable.  Not weather or not you learn anything necessarily, but is it in any way shape or form worthwhile, either leaning things OR just for having the piece of paper for getting a foot in the door.

FWIW, what we're talking about is in general.  Everybody knows of exceptions (Bill Gates) but lets just talk generally.  I know lots of guys that were extremely successful without degrees that still think they are generally a good idea.

little more than a signal for me

can't get the damn poll to work, stand by

Sadly necessary to be "successful".

I went to college, but not until I was in my 30s. I know I did the right thing by not going when I was 18, because there was no way I had the discipline to learn in that environment. The best thing anyone ever learns in college is how to learn. By that I mean, how to ask questions of oneself, and how to pursue the answers to those questions, be it through rigorous research, experimentation or just plain thinking.

Plus, there's hot chicks.

I wasted two years in community college then wised up and went to a trade school(DeVry Tech. Inst. in Phoenix AZ.) and got an Electronics Tech. Degree.  Alot depends on what you want to get out of it and how much you're willing to put into it.  If you just want to party and get laid there are cheaper ways to do that. If you're serious and want to study and work then you could get something out of it if you take the right major.  None of this "liberal arts" crap.

I think it's necessary in todays world. I didn't realize it until I was 30. I wish I had of went after high school like most people. My folks would have payed for it. Instead ,I had to foot the bill myself. It was tough working full time and going to school full time at night. I did it and I'm much better off today.

Quoted: Sadly necessary to be "successful".

I don't think that's true.  While I have a degree, and do find them valuable, there are many cases where people don't have them and are exremely successful.
Don't get a degree becuase you think you have to, get a degree because it's valuable to what you want to do.

My ex brother-in-law (who reminds me of you, Norman) got his degree from Harvard in 3 years.  No one has ever checked whether he actually graduated from Harvard (he mostly worked construction). He always bitches out the alumni foundation when they call begging for money about how he wasted time and money going to Harvard.

I got my degree pretty much because it was expected of me and I didn't know what else to do.  I wanted to go to another school for an education I couldn't get at state school, but I couldn't afford it.  That's been my biggest regret in life.  That was important to me.

Quoted: Quoted: Sadly necessary to be "successful". I don't think that's true.  While I have a degree, and do find them valuable, there are many cases where people don't have them and are exremely successful. Don't get a degree becuase you think you have to, get a degree because it's valuable to what you want to do.

There are several situations where a degree is completely necessary, to be a doctor for example.

The only way I can think of to really do well financially without one is to be self-employed, if you can make it work.

Without my undergraduate degree in History and my JD in law, I wouldn't be the raging feel-good liberal I am today.

Quoted: Quoted: Sadly necessary to be "successful". I don't think that's true.  While I have a degree, and do find them valuable, there are many cases where people don't have them and are exremely successful. Don't get a degree becuase you think you have to, get a degree because it's valuable to what you want to do.

i tend to agree. i am not working in the field of my study. I am by no means RICH but i do consider myself to be fairly succesful. No bills, no debt, cash in the bank and most of the toys we want we get.

mike

It took me twelve years, with five in the middle in the Air Force, to finish my Bachelors degree.  Sure, I owe tons of student loans but it is worth it.

By and large it's a vehicle for job entry.  Past that you must perform.

I worked with several Univ. CA at Irvine grads (Sociology, Psych etc) who seemed not to have a clue how to make use of their degree.  Well, anecdotes are just that.  My dad was the only non-degreed person in his quality control group on the Apollo Project.  He worked for GE.  He wrote all the reports for the group because he was the best at it.

I guess, at bottom I really didn't have the confidence or drive to go continue school.  Did well in high school and had entrance to UCLA but didn't go due, at first to finances, then lack of interest and a dispute with father.

Without my college degreenI could not have entered graduate school.  So it is w. many occupations these days - you need the degree to get your foot in the door.

How much did I really LEARN in those 3 years of undergraduate study?   Very little.

i'm a junior at Clemson right now, can't be an officer without a degree :-/

Well, after drinking away my scholarship years ago, then trying to put myself through when I could, it became clear that I'd have to try to get by without one.  I'm in a pretty good job now, and they are offering Education Assistance, so I'm going to take them up on it and try to finish a degree.  Who knows, maybe one day I'll pursue that JD I've always threatened to....

I think a degree helps to make you a well rounded person.  Doesn't mean that you can't do that on your own, it just helps.  The biggest thing that college taught me was how to learn which has helped me in every job I've had since.  It's allowed me to apply for jobs that require it though it isn't necessary for the job and I know of at least one job that I beat out 2 others who were equally qualified for the job but were not degreed.  

BTW my degree is in Political Science and I work for Sun Microsystems.  Even a degree/job that divergent has been a help.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sadly necessary to be "successful". I don't think that's true.  While I have a degree, and do find them valuable, there are many cases where people don't have them and are exremely successful. Don't get a degree becuase you think you have to, get a degree because it's valuable to what you want to do. There are several situations where a degree is completely necessary, to be a doctor for example. The only way I can think of to really do well financially without one is to be self-employed, if you can make it work.

Exactly, you've got it.  If you want to be a Dr. you need the degree.  Same thing for lawyer, architect, etc.

the only thing a degree does, is shows you have the ability/commitment to learn

Quoted: the only thing a degree does, is shows you have the ability/commitment to learn

I disagree, depending on the degree.
I have a bachelor of design degree from the college of Architecture at UF.  When I meet someone else with the same degree, I know that they were at very least exposed to the same things I was.  That particular program teaches you to think in a certain way, to question things, to qualify your answers, in short to always ask why, and always know why.
The same thing for my master's, which is in construction from the same university.  When I meet someone else who has that degree, I know that they were exposed to the same things as I was.  If I'm in a position to hire someone, chances are I'll hire the guy with the same degree as me because I know he'll have the right framework.

I've got a BS in business. I have worked at several companies who wouldn't even consider you for employment if don't have a 4yr degree. Thats the facts of life because there are more people than there are jobs. If you plan to open/run your own business probably don't need it. If however you're going to work for someone else, it would probably be beneficial.

My feeling is get do get degree right after high school or very soon thereafter, because if you do it later in life, ie with a wife, kids, & house, it will be that much more difficult in terms of committements.  I met my wife when I was in college, and after you leave college your chances for meeting  a lot of people of the opposite sex will decline dramatically.

Generally speaking yes.

There are some that slip through the cracks but that gap gets smaller and smaller as the years go by.

It's a good abitrary way to thin a crowd of qualified applicants to a smaller sample.

Example: Say your looking to hire a Firefighter. 500 Qualified applicants apply for the job. It would be difficult to pick the best applicant out of thoise 500. So by using abitrary means, like requiring a degree, you can thin the pool of applicants to a more manageable level.

Any recruiter/headhunter/employer, who requires a AA or BA, without specifying a major, is mearly artificially thinning the pool of applicants.  It's just as valid to only accept applications from those who have more than 8 letters in their last name, or hazel eyes.

Quoted: the only thing a degree does, is shows you have the ability/commitment to learn

No. It shows that somebody paid for you to go to school for 2 to 5 years. It also shows that you were able to regurgitate the curriculum on command well enough to get 70% of the multiple-choice answers correct.

To assume you actually learned anything would be as wrong as assuming you just did ecstasy and had gay sex the whole time. Not everyone has the same college experience.

The current view most have about under grad school is that it is simply a way for a young mind to experience new things; drugs, art, sex, culture, social experimentation, cultural sensitivity, etc.  Most in the system believe that such experimentation and the expanding of a young minds horizons is more important than any learning that actually occurs.  It doesn’t matter if Sally does well in math. What matters is she smokes dope, drinks beer, watches MTV and sleeps with nmany people of different races and cultures. That makes her a better-rounded modern adult than math skills...

I equate schooling to weapons construction.

College didn't change the metal, or the temper, but it certainly affected the finish and sharpmess of the usable product.

I didn't "learn" a whole lot in college - but I did learn how to learn more effectively, as well as formulate (and convey) my thoughts in a much more cohesive, and hopefully persuasive, manner.

In addition, it's a "membership card" of sorts to many folks.

A college degree is important for 2 reasons. The lesser reason (because there are other ways to accomplish the same end) is that it exposes a person to novel ways of thinking and thereby affords him better tools for dealing with the world, and, if he's fortunate, gives the student a fair fund of general knowledge.

The second and far more important (though unfortunate) reason is that, unless you have a real gift in some field or real mastery of some valuable skill, a degree is about the only thing with the potential to give a person meaningful control over the course of his life. I explained it to my kids like this: If you want to ride the back of a garbage truck, that's OK with me. It's honest work, and the world needs garbagemen. However, I won't stand for you having to be a garbageman. Get a degree and then climb on the truck if you want, but be sure it's because that's your choice. A degree makes it much more likely that what you do will be what you choose, rather than what circumstance foists upon you.

Now, people with gifts (I'm not one of them) may be able to live an intentional life w/o a degree. Gifted builders, gifted mechanics of all stripes, gifted musicians - any of these can live a fulfilling life w/o a degree, but there aren't many people that gifted; and sadly only about 10% of those who'd identify themselves as so gifted really are.

My $.02.

Quoted: The second and far more important (though unfortunate) reason is that, unless you have a real gift in some field or real mastery of some valuable skill, a degree is about the only thing with the potential to give a person meaningful control over the course of his life.

How many people end up actually working in an occupation directly related to their college major?

My cousin, who is a very bright girl by any traditional measure, took 5 years to get her BA and changed her major several times. Her majors was interior design, and fashion.  While going to college she worked for the college. She ran the pool and was the assistant coach to the swim team.  She now runs a significant portion of a Colorado colleges athletic program, which has nothing at all to do with her degree, and everything to do with her employment history.

I have a good friend with a BA in automotive design. Does he design cars for the big three? Heck no, he opened his own business. He uses high pressure water as a precision cutting tool for manufacturing. He makes everything from keychains to appliance parts. Has nothing to do with auto design.  All that time he spent in school smoking pot and doing clay models of futuristic cars would have been better spent studying business and manufacturing.

I just graduated with my BA in management this summer.  All I know is I can't find a job, shit I can't even get an interview.  I hope my degree is valuable to me in the future, but for the time being, I'm going back to school for a science degree.  Hopefully that will help me land a half way decent job.  My degree isn't helping me land a job, but it did teach me many things.

College was extremely beneficial to me. I use the things I learned during those four years all the time. Gave me a great knowledge base and helped me develop critical thinking skills. I recommend it for everyone though it is certainly not "for everyone".
College was more useful to me than medschool though I will say that medschool sure improved my income and I couldn't have gotten there without college.
If you go don't take sluff classes. Go there with the intent of learning and you will have the best four years of your life.

Norman74,
You could sure use it.

Quoted: Quoted: the only thing a degree does, is shows you have the ability/commitment to learn No. It shows that somebody paid for you to go to school for 2 to 5 years. It also shows that you were able to regurgitate the curriculum on command well enough to get 70% of the multiple-choice answers correct. To assume you actually learned anything would be as wrong as assuming you just did ecstasy and had gay sex the whole time. Not everyone has the same college experience. The current view most have about under grad school is that it is simply a way for a young mind to experience new things; drugs, art, sex, culture, social experimentation, cultural sensitivity, etc.  Most in the system believe that such experimentation and the expanding of a young minds horizons is more important than any learning that actually occurs.  It doesn’t matter if Sally does well in math. What matters is she smokes dope, drinks beer, watches MTV and sleeps with nmany people of different races and cultures. That makes her a better-rounded modern adult than math skills...

Just out of curiosity, and being that I expect people to qualify their statements, do you have a degree?

Quoted: How many people end up actually working in an occupation directly related to their college major?

Just the ones who do well in their field of study. If you get a GPA under 3.0 you can pretty much forget about it. The odds go up from there, of course.

You also have to be patient and aggressive about getting a job after college. It ain't gonna fall in your lap. Took me almost a year. I painted houses, took a few other odd jobs, looked into selling real estate(and was offered a job doing so but turned it down). I got a job about 8 months after graduation and absolutely hated it. I decided not to move and quit my job without a dime to my name and a 9 month old baby. Looked pretty bleak. 3 weeks later I got my first choice for position at Mayo Clinic. If I had moved and taken the job I had, but hated, I wouldn't have even heard about it. Funny the way things work out....

I wouldn't mind being a garbageman most days, FWIW and would have still considered my college education to be one of the best things I ever did. Knowledge is power

Quoted: How many people end up actually working in an occupation directly related to their college major?

Overall, I'd say not many. However, my experience and observation lead me to believe that, despite the explosion in the number of people with degrees in this country, being a "college man" still carries a certain cachet and somehow (I don't pretend to know why or how) gives a person leverage and flexibility in whatever he decides to do. I think it's dumb.

My grandfather was probably the smartest man I ever knew. He spent just under 35 years as a policeman, most of it as a very successful homicide detective, achieving the rank of Homicide Sgt in a department where that was a seperate and higher rank than a patrol sergeancy or a sergeancy in any other detective division. He never finished the eighth grade. Today, not only would he not be hired by the same agency, they wouldn't give him a blank application to look at, despite the fact that his "people skills," his powers of observation, recollection, analysis, and reason, and his physical strength and endurance and personal courage would put him in the upper fraction of the top 1% of any police agency. If he were 21 years old today, he couldn't get in the door; if he were 21 with a degree from East Pitchfork Community College (even if it came with a D- average), he could replicate his earlier career. It's stupid but it's true.

I think if you go to learn and acquire knowldge, it's a good thing.

If you go to party, drink , and just get by..that degree might help get you a job with decent pay, but by no means is that "Success"


I am a tradesman/craftsman- Chef/Pastry Chef. This industry has a HIGH rate of people getting out, as the pay is low for quite some time. I have seen more than once a "top notch"cooking school grad fresh out of school claim how well they did in school get on a line, and within hours, walk away from it and give up cooking.

A few chefs I have worked with say I have the right attitude-hang in, work hard, learn, and love what you do. NONE of them have college degrees, nor did they ever put foot onto a overpriced cooking campus.

They all told me the same-it's what you put in and how much determination you have to be sucessfull.

I think this applies if you are degreed or not.

I will go back for a degree later, but only for my own interest and development. I think too many people look at college as a means to get a job instead of a means of education.

FWIW, I am in the industry I got my degree in.  I got a BA in architectural design and a masters in construction management.  I work for a general contractor as a project manager.  I use something I learned in school every day.

College Degree....Not only it's necessary, it's respect and it's a way to better living...

Education first!

Used to be that Military Service was considered to be the equal of a degree, unless it was a job that required a specific degree, ie MD, DD, JD

But no more, military service doesn't mean squat any longer.

Go to school, design fighter planes.

Don't go to school, carry parts for the guys that rivet planes together because they went to school, too.

Seriously, some level of school is required for virtually any job in a trade or a "profession"; both are honorable occupations (unless you are a liberal, bumper chasing lawyer or studied candle making and basket weaving).  A carpenter with a little formal training will likely do better than a high school dropout that doesn't understand a framing square.

I turned down several track & cross country scholorships because I was burned out on training all the time. Went to Marine boot camp 9 days after graduation. Promoted to E4 meritoriously in only 18 months. Promoted to Sgt right after I got back from Somalia, then EAS's a couple months later.

Went to school long enough to get a whopping 33.5 credits, was bored every minute, got straight A's. Dropped out, got a job as a cop, been doing that 10 years now.  I get 5 weeks vacation a year and do a job I love making $34.52 an hour.  The lack of a degree has never held me back, and it wont, unless I try to promote to Lt, which I have no intention of ever doing. I'm a cop, not an administrator.

My wife has a degree, which she uses by staying home and raising our children.

Quoted: Seriously, some level of school is required for virtually any job in a trade or a "profession"; both are honorable occupations (unless you are a liberal, bumper chasing lawyer or studied candle making and basket weaving).  A carpenter with a little formal training will likely do better than a high school dropout that doesn't understand a framing square.

I didnt get the impression that a tech school, trade school, or carpenters aprentice was what Norm74 was asking about. I think he's asking more along the lines of 4 years at a state university drinking beer and sitting through lectures.

Quoted: Quoted: Seriously, some level of school is required for virtually any job in a trade or a "profession"; both are honorable occupations (unless you are a liberal, bumper chasing lawyer or studied candle making and basket weaving).  A carpenter with a little formal training will likely do better than a high school dropout that doesn't understand a framing square. I didnt get the impression that a tech school, trade school, or carpenters aprentice was what Norm74 was asking about. I think he's asking more along the lines of 4 years at a state university drinking beer and sitting through lectures.

It's unfortunate that you didn't finish, but let's not speak about something we only know from 2 semesters experience hmmm?  I love the guys that take two semesters of intro level classes and think they have college all figured out.
Typically, at least in Florida, the first two years of most programs are not as taxing, but there is an elimination process to get into the "upper division" and the classes get harder after that.  Then there's graduate school, where pretty much no matter what your major is you'll be expect to think, as many of the classes are sort of self-taught with the professor as moderator.  You will get reading & research assignments, and you are expected to show up for the next class with something interesting to say on the topic.  Tests are often replaced with research papers, and if you think, like many first year grad students, that it's easier than a test, I'll try and dig up one of my papers that was redlined all over, and I had to re-do it by Monday.

I'm curious to know what the future of a "cop" as opposed to an "administrator" is.  I would guess that there's a ceiling that you reach at some point, but if not, good luck with that.

Incidentally, had to gone to UF, gotten a bachelor's degree in Building Construction, and been working in the construction industy for the last 10 years, and applied yourself at work, you'd likely be making the equivalent of $50/hr right now.

You do hit on an important idea though, you have to love what you do.  Personally I love being involved in something that I know will be standing at least as long as I'm living, and being that I build schools, will affect more lives than most any other sorts of jobs I can think of.  It's good that you enjoy what you do.  In many ways it's as important as money.  I lucked out, in that I found something that I love doing AND happens to pay well.  Not to mention I got an education that helped form the way I approach life.

College is like most everything.  You can make shitty decisions, and coast through, or you can get all that you can out of it.  I watched friends go out into the world as architects and get paid shit and treated like crap, so I shifted gears a bit, stayed in the construction industry, but went where the money is.

AR15fan

Neither was I - carpentry was just an example and "profession" implies four years.

I can tell you this - if you show up my desk for an interview and can't pass a simple test, you won't get recommended for a job.  A fresh graduate gets the simplest, someone that is BS'ing about his experience gets one slightly tougher, and someone with a master's degree gets still another.  It's pass/fail - you need 100% to pass.  I can guarantee that no one learned the answers (or learned how to figure out the answer) without sitting through some engineering courses.

I'm afraid that there are plenty that meet your expectations of partying (nightly!), beer, and sitting through classes - this is one of my pet peeves about the state teacher's colleges - the average student there would be eaten alive by a four year engineering school.  Typical conversation: "Oh my, I've got 14 credit hours and I need to study two hours a day to get a B."
Or, "Those mean old professors gave us an assignment to do this weekend."

[FYI, I've got nothing against the teaching profession, either, just their sorry colleges.]

Got my AA ..proceeded to follow other lemmings making money through the 80's. Now today,doing something totally different and more importantly, something I like. My grandfather gave me that old adage advice about, finding ay to make money at something you love to do. I am.

I am not making anywhere near the money I did 15 years ago...I blew most of that money anyway, on my hobbies and recreation. My values and priorities have changed since that time. Leading me to where I am today. I could not be happier or more fulfilled...honestly.

I still have some goals to reach...I will get there. And it's not about the money either, there's where most people mess up. If that is the only goal...after you reach a certain monetary security, there needs to be something else that occupies the rest of your life in time. You need to have final goal to reach other than millionaire and mansions...if not, you will be miserable. Always have an end zone..with money, lifestyle and personal peace.

I love life more than I ever have..I truly do.

I was fortunate that my undergraduate work was not wasted.  I have a Master of Quality in a field where most people might have an Associate’s degree.  Advanced degrees should help developed critical thinking skills. It also helps keep you employed in hard times.  People want to get the most for the dollar and the more you can bring to the job the more marketable you are.  In my case, it also allows me to work as an Adjunct Professor of Quality.  This in turn adds credibility to what I do.  The more tools you have in your career toolbox the better off you are.

The degree gets the door open for an interview.  The rest is up to you.  Some of the most successful people I know only had a year or less of college.  

I think it is valuable, but by no means nessary. I will have a degree or two when I am finished, but I have read a lot of books on my own that have made me smarter too.  

Quoted: The degree gets the door open for an interview.  The rest is up to you.  Some of the most successful people I know only had a year or less of college.

But the most successful people usually have more than a year.*

* (Then again it depends how you define success.)

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Seriously, some level of school is required for virtually any job in a trade or a "profession"; both are honorable occupations (unless you are a liberal, bumper chasing lawyer or studied candle making and basket weaving).  A carpenter with a little formal training will likely do better than a high school dropout that doesn't understand a framing square. I didnt get the impression that a tech school, trade school, or carpenters aprentice was what Norm74 was asking about. I think he's asking more along the lines of 4 years at a state university drinking beer and sitting through lectures. It's unfortunate that you didn't finish, but let's not speak about something we only know from 2 semesters experience hmmm?  I love the guys that take two semesters of intro level classes and think they have college all figured out. Typically, at least in Florida, the first two years of most programs are not as taxing, but there is an elimination process to get into the "upper division" and the classes get harder after that.  Then there's graduate school, where pretty much no matter what your major is you'll be expect to think, as many of the classes are sort of self-taught with the professor as moderator.  You will get reading & research assignments, and you are expected to show up for the next class with something interesting to say on the topic.  Tests are often replaced with research papers, and if you think, like many first year grad students, that it's easier than a test, I'll try and dig up one of my papers that was redlined all over, and I had to re-do it by Monday. I'm curious to know what the future of a "cop" as opposed to an "administrator" is.  I would guess that there's a ceiling that you reach at some point, but if not, good luck with that. Incidentally, had to gone to UF, gotten a bachelor's degree in Building Construction, and been working in the construction industy for the last 10 years, and applied yourself at work, you'd likely be making the equivalent of $50/hr right now. You do hit on an important idea though, you have to love what you do.  Personally I love being involved in something that I know will be standing at least as long as I'm living, and being that I build schools, will affect more lives than most any other sorts of jobs I can think of.  It's good that you enjoy what you do.  In many ways it's as important as money.  I lucked out, in that I found something that I love doing AND happens to pay well.  Not to mention I got an education that helped form the way I approach life. College is like most everything.  You can make shitty decisions, and coast through, or you can get all that you can out of it.  I watched friends go out into the world as architects and get paid shit and treated like crap, so I shifted gears a bit, stayed in the construction industry, but went where the money is.

Amen to that.  Anybody that thinks college exams are multiple choice obviously never took upper level classes.  I remember one class that was graded entirely by one essay during finals week.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sadly necessary to be "successful". I don't think that's true.  While I have a degree, and do find them valuable, there are many cases where people don't have them and are exremely successful. Don't get a degree becuase you think you have to, get a degree because it's valuable to what you want to do. There are several situations where a degree is completely necessary, to be a doctor for example. The only way I can think of to really do well financially without one is to be self-employed, if you can make it work.

At the next shoot, Ask theredgoat to point you in my direction.....we need to talk or IM me.

I screen all potential new hires in our group, and the resumes without a degree go right into the trash.  Contrary to AR15fan's belief, it is not arbitrary.

The job is mostly technical, but like all office jobs it involves reading and writing reports.  Most of the people without some sort of degree can't write a report worth sh!t (at least not one I would send to a customer).  There may be some applicants without a degree that are qualified, but should have put in the extra effort to document their skills with a degree.  When I meet them I usually say, "Yes, I will take fries with that."

I put myself through college, right after High School. I worked days and nights to keep ramen noodles on the table and the lights on in my studio in a crappy part of town. One month before I graduated I had three offers for decent jobs. My degree is related to my job, not the industry I work in. Without my degree the door to my current job would not have been open.

Yes, I think a degree is valuable, and hopefully I can start on my MBA soon....on my employers dime of course.