This is a double post from the precision rifle forum but there is not much action over there.  Soooo, I thought you guys might have some ideas.


I have a Savage 10fp that some of you guys have helped me with before.  Especially trying to get it clean.  Well,  the question came up, "how is it shooting".  I took it out today and fired 3 groups.

The first group was fired from a cold clean bore.  The point of aim is the bullseye.  The ammo is Federal Gold Match 168 Grain boattail bullets.

The range was 200 yards.

The second group was fired after the time it took for me to walk down range,  check first group, walk back to rifle, load and fire.  The second group is VERY nice in my opinion.  If you look closely,  you will see there are actually 6 shots in that group,  one hole actually has 2 bullets through it.

I walked down range,  got stoked beyond belief,  walked back to the rifle and loaded it up.  I than fired 5 rounds and low and behold,  the bullets were spraying all over the place.

What the heck is going on here?  I know it is not me because the rifle is being shot prone with a bi-pod and a sand bag in back.  It's a very steady rest system so it's not that.

Anyone have any ideas???

Just guessing, my friend.  But I would say that the long walks got you pumped up a little and you didn't settle down before firing that third group.

BTW, that second group was nice.

But remember, three groups will not tell you much.  Shoot many, many groups before trying to read too much into them.

How long did you wait between shots? You need to let the rifle cool between shots for maximum accuracy.

How many rounds through the gun to this point? Did you clean the rifle after EVERY shot for the first 10 and then after every other shot for 10 more?

Did you try any other ammo? I have the same rifle as you, each rifle likes it's own personal load, do you handload?

What where the wind conditions? Did you leave your ammo out in the sun? Temperature variations WILL change your POI. Move the target to 100 yards and try again.

Are you making sure you are looking through the scope at the same place EVERY time? If you aren't you are experiencing paralax. Also check to make sure your rings and bases are torqued correctly.

Generic

Check scope mounting...

Quoted: Just guessing, my friend.  But I would say that the long walks got you pumped up a little and you didn't settle down before firing that third group. BTW, that second group was nice. But remember, three groups will not tell you much.  Shoot many, many groups before trying to read too much into them.

Yes,  your right,  I was pulsing pretty good after the long walks.  Every time I would settle on target my heartbeat would kind of pulse the sight picture very slightly.  I think this was made worse by me laying prone?  

So it sounds like it was me, I was hoping I could blame the rifle. LOL

What part of Nevada do you live? I'm in Southern Idaho and if you are close I wouldn't mind helping you.

Generic

How long did you wait between shots? You need to let the rifle cool between shots for maximum accuracy.

I didn't give time between shots at all. I would point, aim carefully and fire.  Maybe 45 seconds between shots.

How many rounds through the gun to this point? Did you clean the rifle after EVERY shot for the first 10 and then after every other shot for 10 more?

The gun has about 70 total rounds at this point.  I did a break in procedure but not to the point I was cleaning after every round.  It was more like cleaning after every 2-3 rounds.

Did you try any other ammo? I have the same rifle as you, each rifle likes it's own personal load, do you handload?

I tried some HSM match ammo, it's made out of Montana and my rifle doesn't like that stuff at all.  I don't handload yet,  I want to learn however.

What where the wind conditions?

Variable between 3-6 mph is my best estimation.

Did you leave your ammo out in the sun?

From the time I set up to to the time I started shooting, yes.

Temperature variations WILL change your POI. Move the target to 100 yards and try again.

Are you saying I jumped to 200 too soon??

Are you making sure you are looking through the scope at the same place EVERY time? If you aren't you are experiencing paralax. Also check to make sure your rings and bases are torqued correctly.

Do you mean am I lining up the cross hairs the same everytime?  Or are you asking if I had consistent eye relief.  Yes to both.  I just installed the scope and mount.  I tightened the base down as tight as I could get without going crazy.  The rings are not as tight because I didn't want to damage the scope tube.

I'm no expert, but I personally don't like the shoot-n-see targets because after a few shots are fired the target gets very distracting.

Imagine this...you aim at the center of the target and your first shot is just slightly left of center. Now you try to aim at the same at the same place but you have a huge yellow spot in the way which I find myself inadvertantly moving my crosshairs closer to the bright dot (like a deer in the headlights .

When I switched targets to one where I couldn't see immediately where the bullet has impacted, my groups tightened up dramatically.

edit: This is just an observation not a solution to your current problem.

For that like the above. I would first make sure the mounts are very tight all the way around. Go back to 100 yds, and agree with everyone else.

I would have to say you were on a natural high and pumped up causing a higher heart rate. slow down.

Ask yourself:

did I change the support of the rifle?
did I tighten my grip?
did I relax before the group?
     shoot the group then look?
     was my eye centered in the scope?
     was my mind racing about the last group?

Think back did you call all the shots good. You where looking at the cross hairs when it went off, just remember.



If you can find one or more things above then it's just the trigger nut that backed off, relax it will tighten up on it's own.  

I left out temp, mirage and light changes as I don't know how much range time you have.

Your doing fine!  

I'll give you some hints on new rifles:

1.  Don't shoot off a bipod when trying to evaluate accuracy.  Bipods make handy rests, and look totally badass, but the rifle jump may throw off your POA/POI.  Use a sandbag, or something relatively mushy.  Save the bipod for field conditions, or pretty pictures.

2.  When scopes are mounted, they must be settled a little before they will yield consistent results.  When a scope is first mounted, it may feel tight, but after a few shots, things will loosen up a little and will require further tighening.  Snug up your mounts and rings again.

3.  Ditch the 'shoot-n-c' target.  It MAY be difficult for users in certain conditions to clearly differentiate the black of the target from the black of the crosshairs.  I recommend a red or black 2 MOA square printed on white paper.  Adjust your sights so that you are hitting above your square.  You don't want to eat up your beautiful square with holes thus rendering your POA useless!

4.  Shooting from prone is good.  You must allow your hard breathing to return to normal.  your pulse may also show up on the target.  Move the butt of the rifle to a different spot on your shoulder, if this is a problem.  Make sure you use a consistent cheek weld.  Believe it or not, changing the angle of your eye however slight may alter your POI.

5.  Position your non-trigger hand under the butt of the rifle and use that to adjust elevation.  Hold somthing like a bean bag under the corner of the butt.  This will allow you to transmit fine adjustments to your aim by squeezing the bag.

6.  Let someone else shoot the rifle.  This will eliminate you from the equasion.  Preferably, pick someone who has the ability to shoot sub-MOA groups.

Looks fine to me. If that target was man sized head, he would be dead.

Quoted: What part of Nevada do you live? I'm in Southern Idaho and if you are close I wouldn't mind helping you. Generic

Thanks for the offer!! I live in Vegas unfortunately.  I want to buy a place up by you at some point though.  I found a really nice place in Grace, ID that I really want to buy.  Timing is just bad right now.  Anyway, thanks again.

Ok guys,  so I need to slow down between shots.  I got that.  

I need to ditch the shoot and see's.  Ok,  will do that.

I need to ditch the bi-pod for now.  I have a set of sandbags but the front bad isn't hight enough, any suggestions?

I will retorque my scope rings right now.

Also,  I will pay attention to cheek weld and rifle butt positioning.  I had no idea this stuff would play a roll in grouping.  I though if the crosshairs were on target it wouldn't really matter much where the butt of the rifle was in relation to your shoulder.  

I see why it matters now,  to get a consistent sight picture through the scope.

Quoted: I need to ditch the bi-pod for now.  I have a set of sandbags but the front bad isn't hight enough, any suggestions?

Only the rest directly under the rifle needs to be a sand bag.  If your sand bag is a little too low, then place a rock, log, box, brick, etc under the sandbag.

Do you have the Accu-trigger? Check your trigger pull weight and scope mounts.  If you have the trigger very light, your pulse will affect your shot. Scope mounts do come loose.  I can see the first group as you were getting settled in.  The second group looks like you were really concentrating. The third, as had been said here before, may be due to your increased pulse rate.  That rifle is easily capable of moa, warm or cold.

Quoted: Do you have the Accu-trigger? Check your trigger pull weight and scope mounts.  If you have the trigger very light, your pulse will affect your shot. Scope mounts do come loose.  I can see the first group as you were getting settled in.  The second group looks like you were really concentrating. The third, as had been said here before, may be due to your increased pulse rate.  That rifle is easily capable of moa, warm or cold.

Yep, I have the accu-trigger and I have it adjusted all the way down as light as it will go.  The manual states that to be 1 1/2 pounds.

How would a light trigger transmit pulse, just curious????

Next time out spend the extra money for more targets and set up 4 targets at a time so the walking trips are fewer and farther between.

Quoted: Next time out spend the extra money for more targets and set up 4 targets at a time so the walking trips are fewer and farther between.

Or get a spotting glass

Try bringing the trigger pull up to about 3 pounds.  A pound and a half may be too light for a hunting rifle. Try that for a while and then work your way back to a pound and a half.

1. make sure you have a NPA (Natural Point of Aim) as not to muscle it on to target to align it.

2. breath control, over time you can regulate your heart pluse. it also will help from getting a retina burn(seeing what you are realy seeing and not a false image)

3. Trigger control, squeeze with the pad of your finger not the tip(between the tip and the first knucle)

If you add this to the list that you have above you will be hammering in no time.

Do you get floater in your eyes?
You are shooting with both eys open right?

Drop me a email
old NRA CERT. shooting coach.

Quoted: Try bringing the trigger pull up to about 3 pounds.  A pound and a half may be too light for a hunting rifle. Try that for a while and then work your way back to a pound and a half.

This is my target rifle, not a hunting rifle by the way.

Twostage wrote:  Do you get floater in your eyes?

What does this mean,  I've never heard of getting floater in your eyes, is that some locker room joke gone bad or something?? LOL

By the way,  I do shoot with both eyes open, yes.


This is just so different to shooting open sighted semi auto's and handguns.  It is definately a humbling experience, that's for sure.

Thanks for all the help guys,  I was going to shoot some tomorrow and post the results but they are calling for 20 mph wind.  There is no way I could group with wind like that.

Email sent

that's a nice 2nd group