If the Constitution is suspended tomorrow, for whatever reason (terrorism, war, JBT's go nuts, the people finally get pissed, whatever), and all hell breaks loose in the streets, how would you pick sides?

How do you know who you're fighting with and for?

More importantly, how do you unite and/or coordinate with folks who agree with YOU?

It's not like we're going to have battle flags or anything, and I can guarantee you the internet will be down HARD.

So, any ideas?

Don't wait to coordinate.  Have your plans already in place.  Leave your family out of it if they don't already see the need.
(My parents think I'm nuts for preparing even a little bit.  Sadly, they are on their own.)

If I know them they will live...

If I don't know them.....


Actually I don't have a clue...  I would have to proceed with caution when approached by anyone.

03Mav

Quoted: Don't wait to coordinate.  Have your plans already in place.  Leave your family out of it if they don't already see the need. (My parents think I'm nuts for preparing even a little bit.  Sadly, they are on their own.)

Failure to plan, is planning to fail.

We will survive. No problem. The guys in our unit have mucho experience in such matters and are real survivalists to boot.

I will be the guy that all of ya'll are planning to defend yourselves against.....



Seriously though, my only plan is to do whatever I have to do to get out of the city with some guns, some ammo, and my dog (I might get hungry later...).

I think internet communications will continue...but rendered useless by gov't opposition because of surveilance.

Initially, Im headed to the Blue Ridge if the SHTF.  From there, who knows. Im on the side that believe the US Constitution is to be preserved at all costs.

Personally, I think there will be standoff's, like WACO.
People like me will see it on the news and take a road trip. After a while, I will likely be dead or there will be no reason for a road trip because the heat will be local, in every community, in every state.



-HS

If SHTF, NYC will be a bloodbath.  Im ready, collected enough toys over the years...Just have to stock up on more twinkies!

Easy answer: My side.

I have planned and coordinated with local family, they are the first priority. My Father is very laid back and would come across as someone that would think the SHTF crowd is a few tacos shy of a value meal. He actually lets me know all the time he is aquiring things that would make doable if our infrastructure disappeared.

Reference that battle flags: When I was active in the National Ski Patrol our flag was a pink flamingo. If you had one and displayed it other then in your front yard, like camping or fishing or skiing then that was the inner circle of distinct friends, you may not know that person but you did know someone that knew someone. Was actually kind of cool.

What is our pink flamingo?

I know that a residence that has a wall rotting evil doers circling it at 100 yards would be considered by me as "like minded" although I am not coming over for a BBQ lol

Hunter out...

None of these answers gives me ANY confidence that our revered Constitution will EVER be reinstated....

Quoted: None of these answers gives me ANY confidence that our revered Constitution will EVER be reinstated....

Thats because people (like myself) are focusing on the early stages of your scenario. Remember there was a fight BEFORE the Constitution and there will be one BEFORE it is reinstated.

Hunter out...

EDITED for gross spelling error. little errors remain.

Quoted: None of these answers gives me ANY confidence that our revered Constitution will EVER be reinstated....

I agree. It would appear that anarchy will reign. At least for a brief time. Unfortunately, there are not enough of us to set up any kind of real organization to get things back on track. As such my initial interest will be in the survival of my immediate family and friends. Not much else is going to matter.
Eventually, there will be some re-organization and rule of law will prevail.

For those who think that they are going to flee the cities for the country, I would say to get set up before SHTF. If mobs of people that I don't know move into my area SHTF will be the least of their problems.

Zaphod,

Sorry, but I think my plan is a sound one. Under current circumstances, acceptable.

I'm a self preservationist as are most others.  My first priorities are my safety and my loved one's safety.  After that is secured, I'll pick a side or fly solo on behalf of a side.  I think if it were a fight with the gov after a permanent suspension of civil liberties, you're going to be fighting a force much greater than you, so head on assaults would be suicide.  The only safe thing is to take down the political forces destroying the constitution.  Killing army troops, cops or other people "doing their jobs" would accomplish nothing besides killing pawns.  Cut off the head to kill the snake, that would be my aim, IF a huge SHTF scenario like that came up.  But I don't think the people would uprise to do this.  America is too complacent.  Our minds have been dulled and pacified by tv and we are happier just letting the politicians run everything as long as it doesn't infringe on MY rights.  So much for caring about the total country and the big picture.

I will dial 911 and ask for directions.

democracy is a luxury.  If people are going bonkers all around you, you will hardly have time to organize to try and force a piece of paper on those that don't want to hear it.

I know what I'm gonna do.

this is a good question, and if it happened, I sorta doubt I'd survive.

I've lived a certain way for 52 years, and I simply ain't gonna change.
Period.

Take a look at Iraq.

Let's see, I already moved out of a city.  I have some canned goods and ammo.  I know...

I am a member of the evil clown army.  I'll just reach out from the drainage sewers and grab the JBT's by the ankles as they walk by.  "We all float down here.  You're gonna float too!"

I figure that most of the bad action will take place in cities.  Out in the villages, we can probably coordinate with one another by simpley walking next door and having a chat.  Kind of hard to monitor that activity.  We know who belongs here, so planting spies might not work.  Getting someone to betray us, that might not work either since these small villages tend to know what is going on with everybody.  

I guess I already have a plan in the working just living where I live.

As far as sides, I will go with Ents.  I know that sounds like a joke, but think about it.  Sauroman(whatever) never knew that it would come to that.  Rub a group of people the wrong way long enough and you will deal with them at your disadvantage when you least expect it.

Bilster

Quoted: this is a good question, and if it happened, I sorta doubt I'd survive. I've lived a certain way for 52 years, and I simply ain't gonna change. Period.

Glad to know you feel that strongly about your existence.


Anyway, back to the point.  I kind of got into this whole shtf thing about a year ago.  It never crossed my mind that s could actually htf.

I started studying current events and trends and what appears to be happening is the shit is hitting the fan as we sit here right here and right now.

It doesn't make it any better with all the current events and a top military leader (General Tommy Franks) stating that if a wmd ever hit our soil,  he feels the people of the United States would best be run under the military and not the constitution.

That really makes me worry, it really does.

So anyway,  back to the topic.  I have been looking at property up in Idaho and really want to get in on something up there.  It seems ideal,  rural areas,  many like minded individuals up there that believe in the constitution.

I have plenty of ammo, food, water, and weapons to get to my long term bug out point.  The problem is,  I really don't have a long term bug out point to go to.  It would be cool if some like minded individuals got together and started building up a cache of stuff on a small ranch together.

That's what happened in the book, "Patriots: Surviving the Coming Collapse".  Basically a group of people got together and planned for the worst.  Well,  the worst happened and they were ready for it.  Very good book,  I recommend it if you haven't read it yet.

A thought regarding buying land to escape to:  Don't buy anything further than a tank of gas away, because if the merde really hits the ventilateur there won't be any gas availible at gas stations.

To put it simple as I can, it would go something like this:

Your eiter with me or against me, what's it going to be?

Quoted: To put it simple as I can, it would go something like this: Your eiter with me or against me, what's it going to be?

I still want to dial 911 first.

I would hope most people in the military would be on our side; living in the same state as Ft. Bragg, Camp Lejeune, Cherry Point, Pope AFB, and Seymore Johnson AFB. For the most part they think like us.

I've got some land out in the middle of nowhere.  Not farther than a full tank of gas though.  I have the incling to develope it into a SHTF gettaway but am a little short on funds, as many of us are.  There are several properties around mine that are for-sale.  They are up in central NE WA, near the Canadian border.  I always thought it would be cool to get a bunch of ARFCOM guys to by up all the land and put in a grand shooting range.  And then there would also be a place to lock and load when SHTF.

Zaphod,

what is your take on this? You despair people's responses but haven't made your own statement.

I think that if the S does HTF there would be near (or complete) anarchy... That means, to me, that unless I know someone, they get the "hairy eyeball" (AKA the eyeball behind the gunsight) until proven an ally. So the Constitution would seem to be cast aside for however long it takes for "good" to prevail (should it prevail). It's not like anybody will be thinking "is this Constitutional?" while they're defending themselves from bad guys. And the bad guys don't obey the Constitution now so they'd have less incentive to obey it then ; ) .

So for me, it's "protect my circle" and all the others, save allies, can get lost.

As for your second question, "how do you unite and/or coordinate with folks who agree with YOU?", that's a tough one. You need a contact policy and a tough one at that. You will meet with like minded people but you need to trust your gut most of all... And not what your eyes may tell you. My next door neighbor was a big, nasty looking biker guy. I got to know him and he was the nicest, BEST neighbor anybody would ever want. Sorry about the digression, just felt I had to justify that "go with your gut " statement.

jim

Quoted: I would hope most people in the military would be on our side; living in the same state as Ft. Bragg, Camp Lejeune, Cherry Point, Pope AFB, and Seymore Johnson AFB. For the most part they think like us.

Ft Bragg here.  

Aside from the "I just enlisted to get money for college" crowd and the "I just sighned up because I don't know what to do" crowd, the professional soliders I know would not take orders from a government that scrapped the constitution.

At the moment the constitution was thrown in the trash, they would become highly trained contientious objectors in the REBEL forces.


Of course, people tend to make friends with people that think like they do. So, maybe many in the armed forces would embrace fascism with open arms and begin practicing their goose stepping techniques.


-HS

Why buy land? If TSHTF then just take what you want. one box of ammo can "buy" you many many acres if you get my meaning.
Now what would I do. I believe first order of business is to bug out of here and rendevous with the family (who have no guns or much common sense) and set up in a defensive posture till I could get a few things straight. Things like what side should I be on, where is the best place to set up at least semi-permanently. How bad is the situation, does it seem to be temporary or the real thing.
Jumping into a battle with little or no intelligence (no, I military/political intel, not how bright a person is) is not what I want to do. Basically just cover my ass while I get an idea of whats is really going down.

BTW, I really like the Flamingo flag idea. It is inconspicious and easily identifiable unlike a confederate battle flag or a christian fish or even a UN type flag. Unfortunately an AR15.com flag might be too much also...

Quoted: Quoted: I would hope most people in the military would be on our side; living in the same state as Ft. Bragg, Camp Lejeune, Cherry Point, Pope AFB, and Seymore Johnson AFB. For the most part they think like us. Ft Bragg here.   Aside from the "I just enlisted to get money for college" crowd and the "I just sighned up because I don't know what to do" crowd, the professional soliders I know would not take orders from a government that scrapped the constitution. At the moment the constitution was thrown in the trash, they would become highly trained contientious objectors in the REBEL forces. Of course, people tend to make friends with people that think like they do. So, maybe many in the armed forces would embrace fascism with open arms and begin practicing their goose stepping techniques. -HS

I don't know about that.  Many of their families, ("dependants", if you will), reside in gubment housing and will depend upon that gubment for continuation of said housing and rations.  Remember, we're not explicitly talking death camps or summary executions (not that it couldn't happen). But, going along with a "provisional" military government that says it wants to maintain order and ensure the delivery of goods and services might not sound so bad (at first).

I think the big city will have it the hardest. When the welfare checks and food stamps don't come in you can expect total anarcy, riots, ect. When the food runs out in the cities the rabble will start to move out into the suburbs to forage for food, they'll be the next place that'll be hit.  As for us country folks, by the time they get to us we'll be somewhat organized and should  put up a good enough fight to turn em' back.  Like Hank Jr. said, A country boy can survive.

I'm staying put but don't come a knockin' cuz if I want you with me...you'd be here already! And after all of you guys "bug out" I'll be in the wilderness

Quoted: I think the big city will have it the hardest. When the welfare checks and food stamps don't come in you can expect total anarcy, riots, ect. When the food runs out in the cities the rabble will start to move out into the suburbs to forage for food, they'll be the next place that'll be hit.  As for us country folks, by the time they get to us we'll be somewhat organized and should  put up a good enough fight to turn em' back.  Like Hank Jr. said, A country boy can survive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I could not agree more.The cities will become deathtraps of hungry insane dying sheeple."Those that beat their swords into plowshares,will plow for those who didn't.Send me your huddled masses.They will plow,or they will starve.But they will live."Power flows from the bbl of a gun".Band togeather for the common defense."He who sheds blood with me this day is my brother".  

Yea im in the same boat the Army will have to enfoce martial law and according to how they handle it will decide my course of action. My family will be fine they will be going home to my father-in laws ranch/golf course they will be fine for months food/gen etc he's a survival guy hims self, the stream powers his pumps the irigates the golf course very smart man. my rifles will go in a good hiding place and we will let the situation develop.once again all courses of action will be situation dependant.
           FREE

Quoted: I will be the guy that all of ya'll are planning to defend yourselves against..... Seriously though, my only plan is to do whatever I have to do to get out of the city with some guns, some ammo, and my dog (I might get hungry later...).

Quoted: ... get out of the city with some guns, some ammo, and my dog (I might get hungry later...).

Hungry?  Isn't that what the dog is for?




As for me if it is anarchy, I think I will settle some old scores.  

Quoted: Zaphod, what is your take on this? You despair people's responses but haven't made your own statement.

Oh, hell! If I had an answer I wouldn't have posted the question!

I think that if the S does HTF there would be near (or complete) anarchy... That means, to me, that unless I know someone, they get the "hairy eyeball" (AKA the eyeball behind the gunsight) until proven an ally. So the Constitution would seem to be cast aside for however long it takes for "good" to prevail (should it prevail). It's not like anybody will be thinking "is this Constitutional?" while they're defending themselves from bad guys. And the bad guys don't obey the Constitution now so they'd have less incentive to obey it then ; ) . So for me, it's "protect my circle" and all the others, save allies, can get lost. As for your second question, "how do you unite and/or coordinate with folks who agree with YOU?", that's a tough one. You need a contact policy and a tough one at that. You will meet with like minded people but you need to trust your gut most of all... And not what your eyes may tell you. My next door neighbor was a big, nasty looking biker guy. I got to know him and he was the nicest, BEST neighbor anybody would ever want. Sorry about the digression, just felt I had to justify that "go with your gut " statement.

That all makes sense, but I still worry about the following:

Let's just say our old chum OBL, having been given the Nobel Peace Prize by the dickheads in Europe, and having been declared honorary President by the leftist dickheads HERE, decides to show the world how grateful he is by nuking Los Angeles and San Francisco off the face of the earth.

Now, some would consider that to be a GOOD thing, but in all reality, what the general says is the scary part. The gov clamps down with martial law, rips up the Constitution, and begins to do the JBT boogie.

So, how does the population organize in any significant way to fight back? Internet will be down, phone lines will be tapped, media will be controlled, etc.?

THAT'S what I was asking, even though the rest of the answers here are valid...

I'm throwin in with the zombies, fuck ya'll...

If there were two clearly defined sides (which I highly doubt in a SHTF situation until a substantial amount of time has elapsed), I would choose the side that most closely mirrors my thinking... i.e. defenders of the Constitution.  
However, if neither "side" was fighting for something I believe in, I would "work" for whichever side rewarded me greatest... a SHTF mercenary if you will.  I would work for supplies, currency(whatever that may be), shelter, etc.

A little bit of this a little bit of thatand definately a whole lot of this. All joking aside, I would lay low and take a defensesive stance until I really know what is going on, then I would bug out for the mountains, to the secret spot with a few other well armed families and play it by ear, do whatever is necessary to protect ourselves.

Quoted: It's not like we're going to have battle flags or anything

Wolverines!!!!!!!!!!

(First one to get that reference gets a gold star)

Seriously, I’d collect supplies and bug out to some remote place for a while. Probably food would be my greatest problem; but I could probably just raid my local Sam’s Club if things really looked grim.

After things start getting organized again, I would choose the side that best represented my views. Maybe things WOULDN’T settle down for a very long time, but that might not really be that bad when you think about it…

Wolverines!!!!!!!!!!



RED DAWN!!!!


I like gold stars.

Robin Sage for real doe! The guys who take the job seriously are the ones we would want anyone. The ones that follow orders for the sake of following orders are the reason a Claymore says "Front Towards Enemy" in the first place.

Zaphod:

now I see where you're going with this.

You're thinking about a bulletproof (as it were) system for ARFcommers that provides comms and all important intel to fellow like minded people. "Radio Free USA" kind of like Red Dawn (who could not get the Wolverine! reference ; ) ). "the chair is against the door. The chair is against the door"

Very good question.

I'll be honest with you ... some people's sig lines constantly change. Might be a good start to some kind of comm system.

I admit I haven't given thought to that myself. In my thoughts, when it gets that bad, my focus becomes my family, friends and myself... Safety first, then security, then comfort. Beyond that I guess there is time to consider linking up with other "good" guys as well as seeing about reinstating fair law.

Just my two bits.

jim

Zaph,

If the balloon goes up and you need a place to hunker down, just make it to New Mexico and I'll hook you up.

Other than a few others, me and mine are going to be quite wary of strangers. For the immediate future of a SHTF scenario, personal and familial survival HAVE to be at the top of a very short list. Just survive, thriving is not a real option, just survive.

Displacing and relocating to a much more remote and defensible area. If any JBT's or others wanna find me, rent the video "Red Dawn" as it was filmed in New Mexico. It was really easy for a small band to get lost in that movie and they were able to eat, live and even played a little.

Any of the rest of you here that wanna link up if this does happen, just remember the password....(sent to all that want it via semaphore or heliograph) No, really, if you are from the site and need to bivvy up in NM, you will be very welcome.

That's an interesting topic. It has been hashed over many times on various survival and militia boards.

Assuming you are talking a a widespread national event, which results in a complete breakdown of military/govt:  Some, myself included, fear the various "Militias" will quickly become defacto banana republic type dicators. Many people with borderline mental health disorders are drawn to the "militia" movement, and in fact appear to hope for a TSHTF scenario.  With people like Charlie Pucket, Steve Anderson, and Norm Olsen in leadership roles they will be little better than the criminal street gangs and biker gangs.  In some way the "milia"s will be worse, becuase they will believe they are in "right". At least the gangs will admit being crooks.

For me "picking sides" is easy. Support and protect my friends and family. Be charitable when able to. Resist anyone who would take from others, or attempt to rule others, with force.

Quoted:
I will be the guy that all of ya'll are planning to defend yourselves against.....





I'm not worried.

I've seen you shoot

echo6

Quoted: Zaphod: now I see where you're going with this. You're thinking about a bulletproof (as it were) system for ARFcommers that provides comms and all important intel to fellow like minded people. "Radio Free USA" kind of like Red Dawn (who could not get the Wolverine! reference ; ) ). "the chair is against the door. The chair is against the door" Very good question. I'll be honest with you ... some people's sig lines constantly change. Might be a good start to some kind of comm system. I admit I haven't given thought to that myself. In my thoughts, when it gets that bad, my focus becomes my family, friends and myself... Safety first, then security, then comfort. Beyond that I guess there is time to consider linking up with other "good" guys as well as seeing about reinstating fair law. Just my two bits. jim

You missed my point again... (even though you bring up a good one).

How would society organize itself so as to fight back against a tyrannical government, and then, assuming we won, re-establish a Constitutional Republic?

They did it in 1776-1787 when there were only 13 "states", a population smaller than what's currently in Manhattan, and little external threat to worry about.

Do you think we could do it again today, AFTER a chaotic war amongst ourselves, with other nations and terrorist groups hoping to steal our hunk of the pie, and with mentalities as they are today?

THAT's the question...

For the record, I don't see it happening.

Quoted: Zaph, If the balloon goes up and you need a place to hunker down, just make it to New Mexico and I'll hook you up.

Thanks, buddy. If things continue to go as they are, I may soon be living close enough to you to take you up on that!

Red Dawn was filmed in NM? Seriously? The whole thing? I didn't think NM had that kind of mountain/forest terrain. I always imagined it to be more mountain/desert.

Missed the point? ACK, I hate it when I do that.

Anyway, I guess if the world was like that, I don't see any good coming of it. I'd try to move to Canada or even make my way through Mexico and try to settle down on a nice island or something ; ). How? I don't know.

And how would I know where the fighting is when I'm moving to Canada or to/through Mexico? Again, no idea. That's stuff you need to "work around" and no amount of planning is going to help you out. It's all guts and common sense.

jim

Quoted: How would society organize itself so as to fight back against a tyrannical government, and then, assuming we won, re-establish a Constitutional Republic?

May of us might start individually by utilizing sniper tactics, sabotage, quick hitting ambushes of small units.

Some of us will have friends we trust to help out and form small guerilla fireteams of 2-4 men. Anything more is impractical due to ease of detection, loss of security and degradation of mobility.

Eventually, it may possible to take on the .gov forces en masse but we would have to whittle them down quite a bit initially. Of course, I would expect that much of the military and a few of the LEOs would come over to our side. I would see our greatest need in establishing some air power.

In a SHTF scenario the cities would fall apart rapidly. No doubt they would destroy one another to a large extent. The suburbanites would likely take out a fair amount of what tried to filter out of the urban areas.
The remainder wouldn't make it long in the wild, especially when they ran into those who owned forested and farmed land and weren't about to give it freely to a bunch of cockroaches. We'll be looking out for each other big time. The few who could evade contact would find it VERY difficult to survive in the wild and most would starve, become sick and die or be severely injured in the wild with virtually no chance for survival at that point. Bears gotta eat too!
For the most part people would be better off to stay put at first provided that they have been smart enough to prepare. If not, they are pretty much screwed anyhow.

Eventually, local governments will be reinstated and law and order re-established. For that matter, in rural areas it may continue on with little change. Over time Constituional law would be re-established and given the population which would remain there would be renewed interest in freedom, reponsibility and self-reliance.

What would we need to be organized?
Communications and logistical support. Comm would be tough as the .gov forces would have that controlled and monitored. WE would be able to resatblish some coded transmissions via phone, internet, radio, etc. The .gov needs them also. In any event, this is why we would have to function as small units independently at first. As to logistics I guess I'd say that many of us are already establishing numerous small ammo dumps, and supply houses. Eventually we would need resupply but we would have a little time to work with in that regard.

The biggest question for me is just what are the military guys going to do. If it is anything like when I was in I'd say .gov is in for a big f'ing surprise.

My family are all survival minded, all the way back to my grandfather. We all have a tentative plan, and when friends become survival minded, we inform them of our plans and the network continues. I'm now studying to become an EMT. One, I have a genuine desire to help people and two, how many of you will be able to treat gun shot wounds, if even on a very rudimentary level? As far as identifying people: If, on my way further away from the clusters of chaos, I come upon somebody, the group I am traveling with and myself will take the tactical advantage and "figure out" where they stand by letting them know they are not in a good position and to identify friend or foe. If the drop was made on me and mine, we all will all be carrying a copy of the Constitution in our packs and laminated copies of the Declaration of Independence in our individual map packs. So if that doesn't let you know where we stand, well, you're an idiot, or we're about to shoot it out.