I am working on my package and could use some help. I really don't want to screw it up.

Discharge upgraded from what?

In my 20 + years in the military I have known a few guys who have been booted out of the Navy for various reasons, Good of the Navy, OTH and BCD. Not one of them has ever been able to get an upgrade to their discharge.

One guy was a lead mechanic for Dyna-Electron working on P-3's at Point Mugu for 4 years after he got an OTH discharge for smoking dope. He was never able to get a security clearence that would satisfy the requirements of the job. He tried like hell for 4 years to get it upgraded.

usmilitary.about.com/cs/generalinfo/a/dischargeupg.htm

ok, story time...what did you do?

Uhm - if there's "discharge" from your "package" you need to see a doctor  

Tagged for later use.... (RE code upgrade for me. I got my Honorable Discharge!)

It's very hard, don't believe the barracks lawyers who say it happens all the time.  I have some good Marines get Honorables but bad RE codes because they got out instead of taking orders (recruiting duty).  And the last I heard they weren't being allowed in the USMCR, because their RE code.  In one case the monitor basically screwed him, he told the monitor he was getting out, the monitor still cut him orders, so we had to give him a page eleven for refusing orders leading to a bad RE Code.

I tried "stacker 2", yohimbe, and panax ginseng, the last one took the top of my girlfriends head clean off.  Be careful how upgraded your discharge gets, it can hurt the ones you love.

You got the disccharge that you rated at the time you left the service. Now live with it, you earned it.

Quoted: You got the disccharge that you rated at the time you left the service. Now live with it, you earned it.

ouch, hit the nail on the head

Quoted: You got the disccharge that you rated at the time you left the service. Now live with it, you earned it.

Someone mark this date and time.  I agree with cyanide.  Oh, jeez, the world must be coming to an end.

Hey, I got my Honorable Discharge.  It's not that hard to do.  Live with whatever you did.  As we preach so much on this board, there are consequences to our choices and you are responsible for same.

Im wondering, if this guy goes back in the service (assuming the RE code gets waved) and then leaves again does his new discharge wipe the slate clean of his old RE-3, re-4 or whatever or does that thing still stay along for the ride?

Is the RE code the Re-Enlistment code?

I got out on an honorable dc but I could care less about my RE code, I have NO plans to go back in plus I'm too old anyhow.

Is that somewhere on the DD214?

Quoted: I am working on my package and could use some help. I really don't want to screw it up.

I'd need more info...

Push my "user info" button, then e-mail me yer phone #, I'll get right to ya...

Quoted: Quoted: You got the disccharge that you rated at the time you left the service. Now live with it, you earned it. ouch, hit the nail on the head

Ya!!  govt bureaucrats, (military and otherwise), always get it right!!!

!!!!!

Looks like ADTECHARMS popped smoke.

anything less than an honorable discharge means that you can't ever again own guns right?  that would suck

anything less than an honorable discharge means that you can't ever again own guns right? that would suck

No, a dishonorable puts you in the same category as a convicted felon. As long as you get ANYTHING besides a DD, you can still retain voting rights, own firearms, etc.

I've always "heard" of people who got their discharges upgraded, but I've only personally known one person who did -- and it took some MAJOR shit to do it. A guy with whom my dad grew up was booted out of the Navy at a courts martial with a DD in the early sixties (about 1961, to be exact) for what, I don't know. At any rate, there were other laws on the books at the time that penalized DD recipients (you couldn't receive a driver's license in Oklahoma, for example). This guy's family wound up getting Carl Albert's office involved and got the discharge upgraded from a DD to a BCD.

I know some have some pretty strong opinions regarding people who receive anything besides an honorable discharge, but the guy I know isn't a bad person, he's just a bonehead who tends to get involved in stupid shit. There but the grace of God go I.

OK, here is the readers digest version.

I am a wistleblower.

The guy I turned in was a LtCol in the MArine Corps. He was also the pilot for CMC when he went overseas.

Yes this was stupid and I freely admit that I should have handled it better than I did.

I was administrativly discharged at 3yrs 10 months of a four year contract. (this was in April 1999) I have no marks in my record book until I turned the CO in. then I got two Article 15's with in about 6 days of each other.

Then I was processed out.

Both my NJP's were screwy and I have Documentation. I also have other Documentation of interesting things that were done to include, but not limited to:
Accusing my Wife of Prostitution
Ordering my wife (a foreign national) to surrender her passport to him.
Specifically ording the DNCO to write down everything I did. (quite literaly, the is a log book entry that I took a crap)
Prohibited from seeing my wife while on restriction.
After the prohibition on seeing my wife was lifted by a two star and I was allowed to see her in the barracks lounge for 1 hour on Sat and 1 hour on Sun the DNCO put in a porno and told my wife if she did not like it she could leave.
Giving a standing order to all DNCO that I was prohibited from talking with my father (on the phone or by any other means)while on restriction.

The next post is a copy of my breif to the reveiw board as to why one of my NJP's was screwy. Names have been removed. If anyone finds fault with my logic In this breif please let me know. That is one of the reasons for posting it. The other is to better explane the situation.

NJP dated 980105 was improperly conducted and therefore should not be considered as a basis for a “Pattern of Misconduct” as defined by MCO P1900.16 unless NJP is conducted again with the Accused receiving all rights afforded under UCMJ and MCM. I respectfully request review based on the “Impropriety Standards” as well as the “Inequity Standards”
• Whereas, I was prohibited from questioning witnesses brought against me, in violation of MCM Rule 405 (f, 8).
o CO response to Appeal to NJP dated 14 Jan 1999, signed LtCol XXXXX
o Specific Statement “I was receiving comments from his (LCpl XXXXX) supervisors concerning the accused performance and potential, LCpl XXXXX asked if he could questioned Sgt XXXXX’s comment on his performance and potential. I did not allow SNM to question Sgt XXXXX because I felt it did not pertain to the violation of the UCMJ that SNM was accused of violating.
o Sgt XXXXX also revealed information in violation of MCO 1610.12 Section 5(e) relating to Counseling’s by seniors. I was also not permitted to question Sgt XXXXX concerning his remarks that I was unproductive. Specifically I was prohibited from asking whether I was unproductive because of my actions or because as documented in other places in this brief that I was prohibited by order of my OIC from being productive.
o Per Handbook of Military Justice & Civil Law “Errors of procedure do not invalidate punishment unless the error or errors deny a substantial right or do substantial injury to such right. Thus, if an offender was not properly warned of his right to remain silent at the hearing, but made no statement, he has not suffered a substantial injury. If an offender was not informed that he had a right to refuse NJP, and he had such a right, then the error amounts to a denial of a substantial right.” Denial of the fundamental right to confront ones accusers as outlined in MCM. (Also see rights afforded on NJP counseling sheet)

• Whereas, I was prohibited from seeking legal counsel when requested in violation of right’s afforded MCM Rule 405 (f, 4).
o Also during the course of the NJP I requested to consult with an Attorney at the Joint Law Center, specifically because I believed my right to question those giving testimony against me was being violated, and to discuss the possibility of requesting a Court Martial. I was told that any legal assistance I required would be provided by the Unit Legal Officer or the SgtMaj. (SgtMaj and Unit Legal Officer are Disqualified from giving the accused legal advice per MCM Rule 502 (D,4))

• Mitigating Factors:
o (Record of Medical Care dated 04 Jan 1999 LT xxxxx) I was diagnosed with depression which caused extensive loss of sleep, and exhaustion making it difficult to awaken.
o (Record of NJP Witness statement by SgtMaj) Measures were taken by me to ensure that I would make my musters; specifically I asked the DNCO to wake me up and was told that I would be awoken prior to muster. Although I fully realize it was my responsibility to wake up and report on time, had the DNCO informed me that they would not provide a wake up call I would have made other arraignments to ensure I would muster on time.
o (Record of Medical Care dated 04 Jan 1999 LT xxxxx) I was seeing a counselor at the Family Services Center to help me with my depression.

• Commentary: LtCol xxxxx clearly indicates in his statement that I was not afforded an opportunity; specifically I was denied a request to question individuals (Sgt xxxxx) who gave testimony against me. LtCol xxxxx specifically stated “No, this is my NJP.” Although Sgt xxxxx’s comments did not have specific bearing on the actual charge brought against me, his evaluation of my performance was extremely derogatory, and I was not permitted to ask if the reason my performance was poor in his shop was because he was instructed to not allow me to perform my job by the shop OIC and the fact that at the time I was medically unable to perform in my assigned MOS. I believe this does have bearing on the punishment imposed by LtCol xxxxx considering he was requesting an evaluation of my performance, but was given a skewed representation. It is a fundamental right afforded all accused to question those who offer testimony against them. Although this did not apply directly to the specified charge it was testimony that was considered before a judgment was handed down by LtCol xxxxx. On the Second point, I was also denied right to Counsel after I believed my rights were violated. Once again this is in violation of tradition, as well as regulation. Although it is not a reason for appeal or retrial of an NJP, it makes the NJP inadmissible in a Trial by Court Martial. I contend as a matter of equity that since there is a right to counsel in an ADSEP Board is similar to the Right to Counsel for a Trial by Courts Martial that similarly an NJP conducted depriving the accused the right to counsel should be extended. I fully admit that on the two specified occasions that I was late for muster, ten minutes for the first and 15 minutes for the second. I take full responsibility for my actions and I do believe that I should have been punished in some fashion. However I believe that given the fact that proper procedure was not followed, the rights afforded me under the MCM were violated, and the mitigating factors, specifically the fact that I had a medical excuse the punishment should have been less than a full NJP.

Quoted: NJP dated 980105 was improperly conducted and therefore should not be considered as a basis for a “Pattern of Misconduct” as defined by MCO P1900.16 unless NJP is conducted again with the Accused receiving all rights afforded under UCMJ and MCM. I respectfully request review based on the “Impropriety Standards” as well as the “Inequity Standards” • Whereas, I was prohibited from questioning witnesses brought against me, in violation of MCM Rule 405 (f, 8). o CO response to Appeal to NJP dated 14 Jan 1999, signed LtCol XXXXX o Specific Statement “I was receiving comments from his (LCpl XXXXX) supervisors concerning the accused performance and potential, LCpl XXXXX asked if he could questioned Sgt XXXXX’s comment on his performance and potential. I did not allow SNM to question Sgt XXXXX because I felt it did not pertain to the violation of the UCMJ that SNM was accused of violating. o Sgt XXXXX also revealed information in violation of MCO 1610.12 Section 5(e) relating to Counseling’s by seniors. I was also not permitted to question Sgt XXXXX concerning his remarks that I was unproductive. Specifically I was prohibited from asking whether I was unproductive because of my actions or because as documented in other places in this brief that I was prohibited by order of my OIC from being productive. o Per Handbook of Military Justice & Civil Law “Errors of procedure do not invalidate punishment unless the error or errors deny a substantial right or do substantial injury to such right. Thus, if an offender was not properly warned of his right to remain silent at the hearing, but made no statement, he has not suffered a substantial injury. If an offender was not informed that he had a right to refuse NJP, and he had such a right, then the error amounts to a denial of a substantial right.” Denial of the fundamental right to confront ones accusers as outlined in MCM. (Also see rights afforded on NJP counseling sheet) • Whereas, I was prohibited from seeking legal counsel when requested in violation of right’s afforded MCM Rule 405 (f, 4). o Also during the course of the NJP I requested to consult with an Attorney at the Joint Law Center, specifically because I believed my right to question those giving testimony against me was being violated, and to discuss the possibility of requesting a Court Martial. I was told that any legal assistance I required would be provided by the Unit Legal Officer or the SgtMaj. (SgtMaj and Unit Legal Officer are Disqualified from giving the accused legal advice per MCM Rule 502 (D,4)) • Mitigating Factors: o (Record of Medical Care dated 04 Jan 1999 LT xxxxx) I was diagnosed with depression which caused extensive loss of sleep, and exhaustion making it difficult to awaken. o (Record of NJP Witness statement by SgtMaj) Measures were taken by me to ensure that I would make my musters; specifically I asked the DNCO to wake me up and was told that I would be awoken prior to muster. Although I fully realize it was my responsibility to wake up and report on time, had the DNCO informed me that they would not provide a wake up call I would have made other arraignments to ensure I would muster on time. o (Record of Medical Care dated 04 Jan 1999 LT xxxxx) I was seeing a counselor at the Family Services Center to help me with my depression. • Commentary: LtCol xxxxx clearly indicates in his statement that I was not afforded an opportunity; specifically I was denied a request to question individuals (Sgt xxxxx) who gave testimony against me. LtCol xxxxx specifically stated “No, this is my NJP.” Although Sgt xxxxx’s comments did not have specific bearing on the actual charge brought against me, his evaluation of my performance was extremely derogatory, and I was not permitted to ask if the reason my performance was poor in his shop was because he was instructed to not allow me to perform my job by the shop OIC and the fact that at the time I was medically unable to perform in my assigned MOS. I believe this does have bearing on the punishment imposed by LtCol xxxxx considering he was requesting an evaluation of my performance, but was given a skewed representation. It is a fundamental right afforded all accused to question those who offer testimony against them. Although this did not apply directly to the specified charge it was testimony that was considered before a judgment was handed down by LtCol xxxxx. On the Second point, I was also denied right to Counsel after I believed my rights were violated. Once again this is in violation of tradition, as well as regulation. Although it is not a reason for appeal or retrial of an NJP, it makes the NJP inadmissible in a Trial by Court Martial. I contend as a matter of equity that since there is a right to counsel in an ADSEP Board is similar to the Right to Counsel for a Trial by Courts Martial that similarly an NJP conducted depriving the accused the right to counsel should be extended. I fully admit that on the two specified occasions that I was late for muster, ten minutes for the first and 15 minutes for the second. I take full responsibility for my actions and I do believe that I should have been punished in some fashion. However I believe that given the fact that proper procedure was not followed, the rights afforded me under the MCM were violated, and the mitigating factors, specifically the fact that I had a medical excuse the punishment should have been less than a full NJP.

this seems a bit shady

How so?

My argument is shady, or what the command did was shady?

Quoted: How so? My argument is shady, or what the command did was shady?

first your PM box is full.
Second I meant the stuff about them not allowing you to visit your wife, call your father or being prohibited from seeking legal counsel.

Was a "Booker Statement" read to you in regards to your NJPs?  On it, it specifically states you can stop NJP at any point, and you have 5 days from that date of the NJP for it to become official unless you sign those rights away.  

If those times expire or you signed your rights away, than I don't think the NJP can be reversed at this time.  

Just cleaned out my PM box, sorry.

Yeah, it sucked pretty bad. I am stupid for not going through the documents until now.

The only reason I am doing this is I am in the National Guard and want to go active.

I really want to get activated, currently that is the easiest way to fix this.

How did they move on a pattern of misconduct in 2 monthes?  Everytime I did one, it took around 4-6 monthes, after that the Marines were placed on Appellate leave for up to a year so a JAG board could review the cases.  At the end of their appellete leave the were discharged.

IMHO It seems like you shoulda been on this with JAG about 4 yrs ago, doing it now adds credibility to the charges.

good luck though.

Booker rights were signed stating that I had seen an attorney. Which I did. I tried to stop the NJP, and was not allowed. (no we weren't on a ship)

I appealed it to the next higher autority for the same reasons specified here.

The appeal was denied.

How long ago was this NJP?

A command cannot restrict you from using the phone, nor can they completley deny you the visitation of your wife. They can limit the number of visits, and the length of the visit. They can also require that you be observed during your visit, to ensure that you don't attempt any hanky panky.

As long as you made all of your restriction musters, and were logged in the DNCO logbook as being present, then your command was in the wrong on these actions.

As for the actual grounds for the NJP, you didn't provide them, except to say that you ratted out a LtCol.

Where were you stationed when this happened and what was the year?


Did you receive any Letters of Appreciation, Meritorious Masts, Marine of the Quarter, or any other type of awards that would be indicative of your character?

Seems to me and I'm no lawyer that you should have tried to conceal yourself until it was guaranteed you woud have some protection like that afforded to civilian whisleblowers.  try your congressman or senators.  Go to the local papers, send it to the local news, make a big enough squeak someone will oil you.

Cherry Point in 1999

Original Charge was Article 86.

I had asked the DNCO's to wake me up (they regularly gave wake up calls) as well as setting my alarm. I was having alot of trouble sleeping and also waking up once I fell asleep.

On to consecutive occasions the DNCO did not wake me up after saying he would and logged me in as being late for muster. 10 minutes on one and 15 on the other. Had the DNCO said they would not wake me up I would have made other arraingments, such as sleeping in the DNCO hut or not sleeping at all.

Originally charged with UA.

What command? SOES? H&HS?

Did the Admistrating officer offer you a courtmartial instead of NJP, that is the only way you can stop an NJP is to request a courtmartial, instead and not take the NJP.  I cannot see a CO, saying you cannot take a courtmartial.  Since you were afforded the option to talking to a lawyer, didn't you lawyer advise you with thin evidence, it is better to take the CM?  

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=195325&w=searchPop

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=195324&w=searchPop

I was with VMR-1 (SOES)

Yes I could have taken a CM, the point is I stated I wanted to talk with an attorney because I was not allowed to question the witnesses. I wanted to talk with the lawyer about taking the NJP.

He told me that the Sqdn Legal Officer could advise  me.

Funny thing is, had he allowed me to make a phone call, or allowed me to question the witnesses all this would be moot.

Did you ever receive A letter of Appreciation, Meritourious Mast, or selected Marine of the Quarter before your NJP?

Also, do you have any documentationon what the LtCol did that might have gotten you into hot water, with additional documentation that he had it out for you?

YEs there was documentation of what he did, I turned it in to the Investigating Officer.

Report on the LtCOl said he broke the rules, but it was okay and that I should be Administrativly Seperated.

I have a GCM 6/98 and two Meritorious Masts. Most recent was from 6/98 with a great write-up.

I also have were the LtCol said I was Highly Reccomended for re-enlistment in 6/98

I turned him in in 7/98 then supposedly I turned into a shitbag.

At my AdSep hearing they only called people who had been over me for the previous 3 months.

MY counsel screwed the pooch in a few places, but he was being pressured, at least that is what he told me.

He never called anyone from any other unit who could testify as to my character before 12/98.

Even thoug there were many Marines who knew me for 3 yrs on post.

Another thing that is interesting, I have a letter transferring me to a different Unit effective Jan 20th 99 from the Acting Base CG. This did happen as they sent me to the Tower.

Reasoning was the retaliation.

AdSEp from old Unit was started Jan 27 99

Quoted: YEs there was documentation of what he did, I turned it in to the Investigating Officer. Do you still have a copy of this? Or access to it? Report on the LtCOl said he broke the rules, but it was okay and that I should be Administrativly Seperated. Same as above I have a GCM 6/98 and two Meritorious Masts. Most recent was from 6/98 with a great write-up. Still have the certificates? I also have were the LtCol said I was Highly Reccomended for re-enlistment in 6/98 I turned him in in 7/98 then supposedly I turned into a shitbag. At my AdSep hearing they only called people who had been over me for the previous 3 months. MY counsel screwed the pooch in a few places, but he was being pressured, at least that is what he told me. Once again, do you have any documentation on this? Such as a letter from him? He never called anyone from any other unit who could testify as to my character before 12/98. Even thoug there were many Marines who knew me for 3 yrs on post. Another thing that is interesting, I have a letter transferring me to a different Unit effective Jan 20th 99 from the Acting Base CG. This did happen as they sent me to the Tower. Reasoning was the retaliation. AdSEp from old Unit was started Jan 27 99

DON'T FEEL BAD THE ARMY IS JUST AS F***ED UP.
I GOT A NEW PLATOON LEADER STRAIGHT FROM WEST POINT WHO TRIED TO GIVE ME A 15 FOR RETURNING OFF LEAVE LATE. ALTHOUGH I WAS IN FORMATION ON TIME. I FORGOT TO SIGN IN THE CO LOG BOOK WHEN I CAME IN OFF LEAVE. AFTER THE CO SAID THAT WAS NOT GOING TO FLY HE CAME AFTER ME WITH EVERY THING HE COULD. JUST LIKE A WEST POINTER HE COULD NOT FIND A WAY OUT OF A WET PAPER SACK WITH A HOLE IN IT. IN THE 1ST D.S. I WAS PUT IN FOR A BRONZE STAR WITH V DV I GOT ACOMMENDATION
MEDAL WITH A V DV INSTEED. THE CSM TOLD ME THAT THE FULL BULL SAID HE DID NOT GIVE THOSE KIND OF AWARDS TO LOWER ENL. THE CRAZY THING WAS THAT AFTER THE WAR OUR UNIT WAS ALOTTED 21 BRONZE STARS TO GIVE OUT. WITH MY PL I KNEW I WOULD NOT GET ONE. AFTER THAT I LOST MY TASTE FOR THE ARMY AND GOT OUT. SO OTHER PEOPLE HAVE HAD THERE FILL OF BS FOR THE ARMED SERVICES TO. MY DAD DID 36YR AND HAS WON SEVERAL BIG AWARDS IN NAM. THOSE I RESPECT, OTHER I JUST THINK DID THEY EARN IT OR WAS IT ALOTTED. THANK TO ONE SHIT HEAD LT. I DOUT OTHER MENS COURAGE AND THAT ASHAME.  

SORRY FOR THE SPELLIG ERRORS.

If you got in the Guard, it appears your RE-Code was not too horrible.  Everytime you get discharged you get a RE-code.  

the DD-214 form (Discharge record) is (or was multi-part)  the top layers including the "original" are about the size of a regular size piece of paper.  That is the copy you are supposed to show employers, etc etc.  The bottom layers have the RE-code and some other information. It's made that way so you don't have to show a bad RE-code to people.

You need to contact the Board for Correction of Naval Records to determine what if anything you can do.

In the late 70's and 80s it was possible for DDs and BCDs to get upgraded under certain circumstances.  Bad Uncle Sugar discriminated and gave bad paper to an overly high percentage of minority draftees and to correct this egregious naughty naughty, it was made easy to upgrade.  However, it has become much more dificult since then because you usually hat to really fu to get bad paper.  A general discharge is not considered "bad" paper because that gets handed out for a variety of admin and punishment reasons.

So if you got a General and got in the Guard you should be able to go back on AD if you can get your Command to go to bat for you.  (However, if we got a squared away sailor in my units we generally tried to keep them.)

Well frist of all, you can't betold that you can not see the ADC in the Jag office. (JAG works for the commands, ADC works for the People in the Commands)

(When asked to sign the article 15. The statement to make "Not until I speak with the Area Defence Counsel")(If you were ordered to sign it you should have made an entry with your name stating that)

You should have refused to sign the article 15, that would have sent it automaticly to the JAG office.  

Ok that said, Now wright and call your Congress Man stating what you said about why, Ask if you could have meeting with him.

Quoted: Booker rights were signed stating that I had seen an attorney. Which I did. I tried to stop the NJP, and was not allowed. (no we weren't on a ship) I appealed it to the next higher authority for the same reasons specified here. The appeal was denied.

What you need, is an Attorney with JAG experience, to advise you. I deal with the VA, and am familiar with their regulations, and I'm not an attorney.
 You are still in the military, and subject to military jurisdiction.

I wish you the best, it looks like a couple of posters here know of what they speak...