Store owner in trouble - "excessive force"

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Store owner in trouble - "excessive force"

Posted: 11/18/2003 3:33:05 PM EDT

Hi all, my dad just send this e-mail to a friend who is very active in the 2nd ammendment, and sent a copy to me. I hadn't heard anything about it until now.

Hard to imagine this happening in Bright, the
town where I spent most of my life. Things are always really quiet there.

I've met Grote a few times and he's a really nice guy.

Guenter Grote owns a local convenience store/restaurant in our unincorporated part of the county. Recently – in the wee hours of the
morning – he surprised a group of young men attempting to vandalize or burglarize his business. He caught one; the others got away in a car. Gus demanded the names of the other criminals. The perp refused to answer. Gus fired his 9mm Luger into the air. The perp then divulged the names of his companions in crime.

Guenter has now been charged with a class B misdemeanor – excessive force – and his collector handgun has been confiscated. I’m glad he did what he did. We’re all safer because of it.

I’m assisting in a petition drive to drop the charges and return his firearm. If you or your friends have any experience or advice, I’d
appreciate hearing it.

Posted: 11/18/2003 3:44:22 PM EDT

[#1]

Get one started here:

www.petitiononline.com/

Posted: 11/18/2003 3:45:01 PM EDT

[#2]

Need to get the local media behind this guy, if possible. Also have your dad get together this fellow's friends and come to EVERY court appearance that this guy has. They should also politely call the district attorney's office and ask to speak to the district attorney and point out that they don't think that law abiding citizens should be afraid that they will be the next to be charged for defending themselves from hoodlums. writing letter to the editor would help also.

Best of luck, that was a pretty stupid move on his part. He probably confessed that that was why the gun discharged

Posted: 11/18/2003 3:54:50 PM EDT

[#3]

No offense to you or Grote but while I am a extremly strong supporter of the 2nd amendment I think he got what he deserved.

First of all the kid was unarmed which means Grote had no right to discharge his firearm.

Second of all discharging the luger to make a perp talk is the same as saying "tell me the names of the others or I will shoot you." Which I think we all will agree is completly unappropriate.

Third shooting any firearm into the air in a city is a gross dissregard for saftey. The bullet will come back down at a considerable speed and may hit and kill some one.

Posted: 11/18/2003 3:58:48 PM EDT

[#4]

Shooting into the air is dumb. However, it is not an application of force against the person standing next to the shooter. Grote needs a lawyer who can read (and make a judge understand) the exact language of the law. I'd be really surprised if firing a weapon into the air meets the legal definition of "force."

Posted: 11/18/2003 4:01:55 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Shooting into the air is dumb. However, it is not an application of force against the person standing next to the shooter. Grote needs a lawyer who can read (and make a judge understand) the exact language of the law. I'd be really surprised if firing a weapon into the air meets the legal definition of "force."

Sure it is. Pointing a gun at someone without firing is assault in most states. Similarly, firing in the air is threatening the person.

Posted: 11/18/2003 4:04:53 PM EDT

[#6]

Sure it is. Pointing a gun at someone without firing is assault in most states. Similarly, firing in the air is threatening the person.

Exactly

Posted: 11/18/2003 4:07:55 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
No offense to you or Grote but while I am a extremly strong supporter of the 2nd amendment I think he got what he deserved.

First of all the kid was unarmed which means Grote had no right to discharge his firearm.

Second of all discharging the luger to make a perp talk is the same as saying "tell me the names of the others or I will shoot you." Which I think we all will agree is completly unappropriate.

Third shooting any firearm into the air in a city is a gross dissregard for saftey. The bullet will come back down at a considerable speed and may hit and kill some one.

I second.

Seriously, you should be able to do whatever is necessary to defend yourself/others/property, but that doesn’t mean you have the right to “make someone talk” by threatening to shoot them and possibly endangering the public in the process.

Posted: 11/18/2003 4:16:15 PM EDT

[#8]

Malicious Firing in the air may even be a felony here in CA. Seems a lot of folks from 3rd world countries that do it for jollies or to make points kill a couple of people a year atround here doing it.

Once he had the kid in custody, it's up to the cops to get the names of the others. Needlessly endangering others is not a smart thing.

He's lucky he isn't facing a felony assault instead of the misdemeanor discharge count.

A "good guy" killing somebody accidently and negligently is just as bad for our side as a "bad guy" killing somebody on purpose in the PR wars.

Posted: 11/18/2003 4:39:46 PM EDT

[#9]

Give Grote an F'ing medal!

I have been ripped off too many times to be unsympathetic of a little vigilante justice. He could have just taken him out in the middle of nowhere and made him talk, and then track down his buddies and bury them all together. In my opinion he showed great restraint.

Posted: 11/18/2003 4:50:47 PM EDT

[#10]

Damn, sounds like some bleeding heart newcomers here.

Whatever he wanted to do the punk would be fine by me. This bleeding heart shit is what got us where we are with these punks having no fear because society will protect from the big old mean law abiding citizens.

Posted: 11/18/2003 5:01:07 PM EDT

[#11]

I was agreeing with everyone until I got to mejames post which made me think twice.

None of us were there, so we can't say for sure if the guy was going nutty and threatening to shoot the guy like a crazed angered loon, or if he maintained his temper and sternly pushed this guy by firing into the air and saying, "Tell me."

He got all the perps off the street probably, hopefully, and he could have super lost his temper by shooting them all.

Shooting into the air is stupid, I agree, but I think he should get off with a very stern warning and should get his Luger back.

Just my .02

Posted: 11/18/2003 9:05:48 PM EDT

[#12]

How about we just shoot the first name caller on a thread. After all it doesn't matter what the law says, just what makes us feel good.

Posted: 11/18/2003 9:15:00 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
How about we just shoot the first name caller on a thread. After all it doesn't matter what the law says, just what makes us feel good.

Huh? The storekeeper didn't shoot the kid. He did use an interrogation method unavailable to the police, and probably got information they wouldn't have. No blood, no foul. Does it trouble you that the little weasel crapped his pants and gave up his accomplices? I could see worrying about it if he'd been badly hurt or killed, but he wasn't. Would you be as outraged if the storekeeper had threatened (without pointing or shooting a gun) to cut the kid's balls off, burn his house down, and kill his parents in order to get the information? After all, the cops can't do that either. Do you think the storekeeper was obligated to let things lay once the kid was in custody, and to refrain from any interrogation at all?

Posted: 11/19/2003 12:08:29 AM EDT

[#14]

Maybe he should have shot the little sh*t in the knee then ask, looks like the kid tried to attack him to get away.

Posted: 11/19/2003 6:12:18 AM EDT

[#15]

Would it have been okay for a cop to reclessly discharge a handgun into the air in order to coerce a confession? I dont think so.

Posted: 11/19/2003 6:21:44 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Would it have been okay for a cop to reclessly discharge a handgun into the air in order to coerce a confession? I dont think so.

Different rules. Cops' techniques are limited by the Constitution because they are state actors. Joe Citizen isn't a state actor (although the Fla. Supreme Court held that a confession extracted by a citizen at gunpoint was inadmissible - not because of any Constitutional violation, but because the fear involved made the confession unreliable). A citizen doesn't have to give Miranda warnings, honor a request for a lawyer, or observe any of the other niceties that attend governmental investigations.

Posted: 11/19/2003 6:28:17 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Damn, sounds like some bleeding heart newcomers here.

Whatever he wanted to do the punk would be fine by me. This bleeding heart shit is what got us where we are with these punks having no fear because society will protect from the big old mean law abiding citizens.

Sorry buddy, the the pendulum has not swung as far as you think it has. I think the guy got off light. I personally would like to see nothing happen, but I understand the charge.

If a cop did this, everyone (including me) would be crying abuse of power, and the ACLU would have a field day. A citizen should be able to protect his property, and he did that. Threatening with death is not an acceptable form of legal questioning.

Posted: 11/19/2003 6:29:01 AM EDT

[#18]

I guess if he shot his gun twice and he wouldnt be in this trouble now.

If you want to play be ready to pay

Posted: 11/19/2003 6:54:38 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Would it have been okay for a cop to reclessly discharge a handgun into the air in order to coerce a confession? I dont think so.

Different rules. Cops' techniques are limited by the Constitution because they are state actors. Joe Citizen isn't a state actor (although the Fla. Supreme Court held that a confession extracted by a citizen at gunpoint was inadmissible - not because of any Constitutional violation, but because the fear involved made the confession unreliable). A citizen doesn't have to give Miranda warnings, honor a request for a lawyer, or observe any of the other niceties that attend governmental investigations.

Bingo.

In addition, had he shot into the ground, I would have zero problems with his actions.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Store owner in trouble - "excessive force"

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