Lol, Goofball 1985 FBI Hostage Rescue Training Film

General » General Discussion

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Lol, Goofball 1985 FBI Hostage Rescue Training Film (Page 1 of 4)

Posted: 8/20/2017 4:58:30 AM EDT

Getting paid to 2 gun in sexy black before it was a thing.

Failed To Load Title

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ick9ZqSYYag

Posted: 8/20/2017 5:19:27 AM EDT

[#1]

They had steel targets back them?

Posted: 8/20/2017 5:44:30 AM EDT

[#2]

Goofball huh? I watched three quarters of the video and what I saw was early weapons, equipment and tactics of hostage rescue units.

Posted: 8/20/2017 6:34:12 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Getting paid to 2 gun in sexy black before it was a thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ick9ZqSYYag

View Quote

What you are doing is similar to watching a video on the Model T and laughing because it has no automatic climate control or Bluetooth.

Posted: 8/20/2017 6:38:01 AM EDT

[#4]

Is that Lon Horiuchi?

Posted: 8/20/2017 7:02:14 AM EDT

[#5]

Love those goofy old goggles

Posted: 8/20/2017 7:07:16 AM EDT

[#6]

Quote History

Quoted:
Goofball huh? I watched three quarters of the video and what I saw was early weapons, equipment and tactics of hostage rescue units.

View Quote

This exactly. That was cutting edge for back then. Those guys with that gear would still outshoot 95% of GD today.

Posted: 8/20/2017 7:07:22 AM EDT

[#7]

That's not goofy. That is the first HRT guys trained up by Delta. Notice the weapons. MP5s and 1911s.

The same uniform including standard Army issue SUN, WIND, DUST goggles.

Not goofy...just old school.

ETA: High Power. Not 1911

Posted: 8/20/2017 7:15:18 AM EDT

[#8]

Quote History

Quoted:

What you are doing is similar to watching a video on the Model T and laughing because it has no automatic climate control or Bluetooth.

View Quote

He probably doesn't understand that at that time the concept of the Hostage rescue team was still in its infancy. The U.S. military had only just stood to its Hostage rescue team in the late 70s and it was only 1980 that they, Delta, had their first mission which failed, Operation Eagle Claw, rescue of American hostages in Iran. That failure led to the formation of what is now SOCOM.

If one were to look at the SAS and Delta at the time, they would see much the same thing as what was seen with the FBI HRT in that video. Thankfully, battles were fought to train and maintain these units and we are where we are today.

ETA: Or, he's just being an ass and hating on the PO leese. LOL.

Posted: 8/20/2017 7:30:32 AM EDT

[#9]

Interesting scenario in the shoot house. Looks like live ammo and people all around down range. One of thier guys gets "hit" also which wasn't really the norm for shoot house training then.

Posted: 8/20/2017 7:38:32 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Getting paid to 2 gun in sexy black before it was a thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ick9ZqSYYag

View Quote

Do you have a professional background in tactics, or do you just play guns on the weekend? I already have a pretty good idea what the answer is going to be, I just want to read it from you.

Posted: 8/20/2017 7:40:10 AM EDT

[#11]

Quote History

Quoted:

If one were to look at the SAS and Delta at the time, they would see much the same thing as what was seen with the FBI HRT in that video. Thankfully, battles were fought to train and maintain these units and we are where we are today.

View Quote

Delta "borrowed" from the SAS, well lets be honest they were mostly a carbon copy back in those days, and HRT copied delta. It was what it was and that "lame old gear" worked just fine.

Posted: 8/20/2017 7:40:41 AM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:

This exactly. That was cutting edge for back then. Those guys with that gear would still outshoot 95% of GD today.

View Quote

That's a given. They trained.

Posted: 8/20/2017 7:41:50 AM EDT

[#13]

CQB sure has changed.

Posted: 8/20/2017 7:44:58 AM EDT

[#14]

Quote History

Quoted:

Delta "borrowed" from the SAS, well lets be honest they were mostly a carbon copy back in those days, and HRT copied delta. It was what it was and that "lame old gear" worked just fine.

View Quote

Hey, you can't be the first at everyting. Why reinvent the wheel? Go with the proven system.

Posted: 8/20/2017 7:58:12 AM EDT

[#15]

I wonder why he continued the course of fire with a pistol instead of reloading the MP-5.

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:00:34 AM EDT

[#16]

The last guy at the board talking Operations used to teach at our academy on Hostage Negotiations and what to do if taken hostage.

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:01:28 AM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:
CQB sure has changed.

View Quote

Their sniper rifles have wood stocks, and aren't camouflaged.

I joined the military shortly after that was made, (still reserve component) and the changes in equipment and lethality are hard to believe. The MP-5 has fallen by the wayside, and the only item still in common use that hasn't changed is the dog tag. After initial training, people don't use regular canteens. Even the M2 .50 caliber machine gun has changed. The new ones have safeties and picatinny rails.

Back then, probably only Delta and ST-6 had weapon lights. Now Air Guard security forces have lights and PEQ-15s on their M-4s. Many street cops have weapon lights.

Tactics and techniques have changed, too, as you mentioned. I'm not as fit as I was back in the day, but I'm convinced I'm much better, aside from that.

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:02:15 AM EDT

[#18]

Op is a sad and lonely virgin

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:12:51 AM EDT

[#19]

Cool video!

I'm going through a 1980's militaria phase, lots of cool gear in that video. Nomex flight gloves ftw!

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:15:16 AM EDT

[#20]

No roll Hondo?

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:15:56 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What you are doing is similar to watching a video on the Model T and laughing because it has no automatic climate control or Bluetooth.

View Quote

He probably doesn't understand that at that time the concept of the Hostage rescue team was still in its infancy. The U.S. military had only just stood to its Hostage rescue team in the late 70s and it was only 1980 that they, Delta, had their first mission which failed, Operation Eagle Claw, rescue of American hostages in Iran. That failure led to the formation of what is now SOCOM.
If one were to look at the SAS and Delta at the time, they would see much the same thing as what was seen with the FBI HRT in that video.

View Quote

I just finished reading "Rogue Heroes," about the early days of the SAS in WWII. What I found really interesting was:

A) How so much of their training and tactics were simply made up as they went along;
B) How so many of their early operations were failures.

The bottom line is, somebody has to be first, and they're rarely as pretty or polished as those who come after them.

How do you tell the pioneer - he's the guy with the arrows in his back.

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:17:13 AM EDT

[#22]

After Delta became known, the FBI wanted in, and everyone thought it OK.

The SAS role model was the only fashion statement NATO countries followed.

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:25:15 AM EDT

[#23]

Interesting.

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:25:53 AM EDT

[#24]

I still have a pair of NIB san/wind/dust goggles somewhere around here. A steel pot and web gear too.

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:31:22 AM EDT

[#25]

9:32.. just like fuckin' Saigon!

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:33:09 AM EDT

[#26]

Where's the purple ammo

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:34:43 AM EDT

[#27]

Gotta the love the NV scope on the MP5. How far things have come.

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:35:46 AM EDT

[#28]

nevermind

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:37:17 AM EDT

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:
That's not goofy. That is the first HRT guys trained up by Delta. Notice the weapons. MP5s and 1911s.

The same uniform including standard Army issue SUN, WIND, DUST goggles.

Not goofy...just old school.

ETA: High Power. Not 1911

View Quote

Yup

Couple of things I noticed..

- Maglight mounted on MP5...
- Use of a single leg strap on ad hoc drop leg holster...(Which Ironically got relearned in the GWOT)
- Black gear was king back then.
- Specialized web gear was pretty much non exsistant.

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:49:45 AM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:
Goofball huh? I watched three quarters of the video and what I saw was early weapons, equipment and tactics of hostage rescue units.

View Quote

m

I saw that their shoot house tires were new tires or at least in much nicer shape than my tires. Nice budget.

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:51:46 AM EDT

[#31]

.I'm not HSLD and while I understand equipment and tactics have change it would be interesting to see those same scenarios using today's tactics.

Gotta love the MP5's being used though...

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:57:49 AM EDT

[#32]

At 5:19... Holy Interlocking fields of fire Batman!

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:59:21 AM EDT

[#33]

Some sloppy weapons handling compared to today. But it was 30 years ago. What would that video have looked like in 1955?

Posted: 8/20/2017 9:04:21 AM EDT

[#34]

All I know is that I would still take an MP5 for CQB over an M4. Flame suit on.

Posted: 8/20/2017 9:05:25 AM EDT

[#35]

Stop picking on us old folks

Posted: 8/20/2017 9:07:25 AM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:

Delta "borrowed" from the SAS, well lets be honest they were mostly a carbon copy back in those days, and HRT copied delta. It was what it was and that "lame old gear" worked just fine.

View Quote

You kind of make it sound like they ripped off the SAS or something. Beckwith openly modeled Delta on the SAS(a concept he started pushing after an exchange tour with them in 1962, and there was plenty of collaborative effort between the two units in the process. Then the process was repeated with Coulson and the HRT.

Posted: 8/20/2017 9:10:56 AM EDT

[#37]

Quote History

Quoted:
Some sloppy weapons handling compared to today. But it was 30 years ago. What would that video have looked like in 1955?

View Quote

I'm guessing in 1955 they would have had an attached artillery battery

Posted: 8/20/2017 9:29:29 AM EDT

[#38]

3:50, only one guy with brown shoes.

Posted: 8/20/2017 12:11:43 PM EDT

[#39]

Quote History

Quoted:

He probably doesn't understand that at that time the concept of the Hostage rescue team was still in its infancy. The U.S. military had only just stood to its Hostage rescue team in the late 70s and it was only 1980 that they, Delta, had their first mission which failed, Operation Eagle Claw, rescue of American hostages in Iran. That failure led to the formation of what is now SOCOM.

If one were to look at the SAS and Delta at the time, they would see much the same thing as what was seen with the FBI HRT in that video. Thankfully, battles were fought to train and maintain these units and we are where we are today.

ETA: Or, he's just being an ass and hating on the PO leese. LOL.https://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_abused.gif

View Quote

1st SFOD-D was not the first US military "hostage rescue team". The first was Project BLUE LIGHT. But Col. Beckwith, who while an SF officer hated SF* and was in love with the idea of the 1960s SAS**, convinced the Army Chief of Staff that a highly trained and competent SF CT unit was unacceptable and he (Beckwith) needed to recreate a past version of the SAS*** to do the mission.

*Beckwith had served in Project DELTA in Vietnam and not in 'traditional' SF. His pre-Vietnam experience in the 7th SF Group convinced him that SF wasn't shit. And he never made a secret of that.
** Beckwith did an exchange with 22nd SAS in Malaysia in 1962 and from them on wanted to recreate that version of the SAS in the US Army.
*** Beckwith never grasped that the SAS keeps evolving to meet evolving missions.

Posted: 8/20/2017 12:17:35 PM EDT

[#40]

17 seconds in and they get behind the car, but not behind the tires...

Posted: 8/20/2017 12:27:56 PM EDT

[#41]

5:01
Terrorist with heels on.

Posted: 8/20/2017 12:30:57 PM EDT

[#42]

As I mentioned in another recent thread, I knew of one SRT in the early 80s that was tossing in a Mini Maglite into a darkened room before entering. No weapons lights (no rails, neither) nor night vision.

Posted: 8/20/2017 12:32:46 PM EDT

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:
Some sloppy weapons handling compared to today. But it was 30 years ago. What would that video have looked like in 1955?

View Quote

Posted: 8/20/2017 12:45:57 PM EDT

[#44]

Was listening to CNN last night and they did a special on neo-nazis because topical and talked about this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Jay_Mathews

The interview with the agent from Cour'de Lane (sp?) who started the whole operation to shut down The Order said that once the guy was holed up in his cabin, they had launched some flares for illumination because they couldn't see him in the cabin, but then the cabin caught fire and they burned him to death.

Wikipedia says this:

The government's agents surrounded Mathews in a house near Freeland, Washington on Whidbey Island on December 7, 1984. Mathews refused to come out and negotiations continued until December 8, when Mathews refused to talk anymore. The FBI then fired dozens of smoke grenades and a stun grenade into the house in an attempt to force Mathews out, but were thwarted by his use of a gas mask. Mathews opened fire on several agents who attempted to enter the house, and a long standoff began. When a helicopter appeared at nightfall, Mathews opened fire on it from an upstairs window (the helicopter's crew was unhurt) and then once again exchanged gunfire with federal agents. An FBI agent then fired three M-79 Starburst flares inside the house, setting off a box of hand grenades and a stockpile of ammunition. Mathews continued to fire an assault rifle at agents as the house burned, but then suddenly stopped. After the wreckage had cooled enough to be searched, agents found the burned remains of 31-year-old Mathews' body next to a charred bathtub, pistol still in hand. An autopsy concluded that Mathews had died from a combination of burns and smoke inhalation. His "Bruders Schweigen" medallion, which Mathews always wore, was found melted into his chest cavity. He had fired over 1000 rounds at law enforcement, but no agents were injured.

View Quote

I wonder if the FBI started looking at better ways to actually do things after burning someone to death in a cabin rather than making an arrest - especially since as a practical matter - the arrest would've allowed them to get the ringleader and arrest the rest of the neo-nazis they were looking for.

Of course, by Waco, it seems like if they'd changed that training from "burn it all down" to something else, they forgot and defaulted back.

It took until what, like 1996 and the Freemen for them to figure out all they have to do is just establish a perimeter and wait for the people they want to arrest to run out of MREs?

Posted: 8/20/2017 12:46:38 PM EDT

[#45]

Watch what the guy with the pistol is doing at 0:50. He gets up to run, switches the pistol to his weak hand and holds it all cattywampus - kind of like an old school revolver reload position, hand wrapped around slide and trigger guard from above - reaches back with the strong hand to keep the slung MP5 from bouncing as he runs, reaches cover and returns strong hand to pistol. Completely unable to defend himself while running. I'm guessing that's changed.