I want your input.  I'm about to go visit my father (3hr drive) tonight.  I've been looking for a gun I can let my girlfriend shoot for self defense.

He has a Sig Saur Stainless P232 (.380 auto), with 2 factory mags in box.  I've shot it, and it shoots pretty well (though with my big hands the slide kinda pinched---ouch!)

He's asking $350 for it.  I might could get it for less.  He's in phorensics in a PD, and doesn't really need to carry, as he mostly just investigates crime scenes and works in a lab.

My questions are:

1)  Is it a good gun?  Reliable?  I know the .380 is small, but it would do the job.  It's good enough for 007![:D]

2)  Can you think of something better in the price range for a woman?  My gf is 4'11", 125 lb.  I've tried to show her how to shoot my shotguns and AK's, but they're just too heavy for her to handle effectively.  My AR's are currently waiting for kits which I don't have the time or money to do right now.

I'm worried cause I have to work at night, and we live in different apartments.  I can't always be around or even be called.  The other night some guy tried to get in her door.  She called police, it took them over 20 min. to get there.  Fortunately no incedent.

One good thing that came from this was that it has changed her from fence rider.  She now sees that she needs to know how to protect herself.  She exhausted all other options (call me, call police) but in the end it was just her and a door.  Sad it had to happen this way, but I'm glad she woke up.

Her birthday is coming up, and this might be one of her presents.  What do you think?

The Sig 232 is one of the best small handguns on the market. We sell a lot of them to the LEO as back-ups, kinda tells you something. Out of the box it is very accurate. The price for a new sts 232 is about $450.
Just my 0.02 Ron

Thanks Ron.

I think he may have bought it from another guy on the force, I dunno.  It's in really good shape.  Would it be worth anymore in stainless?

My main concern is getting her something effective that she can use.  I don't have any pistols.  

I have a Sig 232.  I love it!!  Very accurate and never a FTF.

90% of the time thats the gun I carry because of the compact size.  Plus, the double/single action means no manual safety to mess with.  ( The hammer cannot strike the firing pin without the trigger pulled to the rear and it takes 9 lbs to fire the first shot and 3.3 lbs there after. )

Switch out the grips for Hogue's and load it up with Cor Bon +P.  

Good idea with the Houge's

As many of you know, Sigs are great guns. I have a few, but not in .380. I do have a Walther PPK/S in .380.

In my opinion, a .380 will do the job, but keep in mind 2 things.

1) .380's are a pretty small caliber. Make sure that the ammo you keep in it is the hottest .380 available.

2) Make sure your girl has PLENTY of practice. The smaller the caliber, the more important shot placement is to be effective. A few arm, leg, or even weak torso shots can be "ignored" by a sufficiently large attacker. At least long enough to carry out an attack.

Personally, I'd feel a little better leaving a nice small 9mm behind for my girl. But if you can get the Sig for a good price, and with the proper ammo and practice, I think she'd do just fine.

Go for it!  You and her will not be disappointed.  I've got the older version P230 stainless.  Never had a problem.  Less recoil than PPK.  Definitely get the Hogue grips approx $15 if memory serves me right.


You might also think about a snub nosed .38.  Nothing to think about for her if she is in stressful situation. Good thread on this about a week ago on what to buy wife.  Do a search.

Sig makes a very nice pistol. If she does not shoot much you may want to consider a five or six shot .38 special revolver. Until she get a little more comfortable shooting. If you can get her to go with you to a gun store let her pick it out. She will be much more likely to want to shoot it if she pickes it out.

Easier to handle and she does not have to worry about it not working. Or what to do if it malfunctions.

You also need to make sure she gets signed up for some training from a good school. The training is just as important as the pistol. Does no good to have it if you are afraid to use it or cannot hit any thing with it.

Good Luck

the SIG is a good gun

but also consider the makarov (preferably the east german model) can get it for $200 or less, is slightly larger than a walther PPK (and the sig you are considering), shoots a slightly better round the 9x18, and surplus ammo is cheap.
corbon and hornady make defensive ammo for it, and the russian and are now importing HP rounds for $7 box of 50

the reason i would go for the german model over the russian and bulgarian, is that its smoother action, and nicer made

Kilomax,

Is this the thread?
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=18772

Yeah, good Idea about training, too.  She even came up with the Idea of Concealed Carry on her own!  She's a keeper.  If I don't watch out, she'll be outshooting me!

Now, if I can only buy one, do I budget for the gun or the ring...[;)]

I wouldn't overlook the Glock 26.  I have tried to make my G26 misfire by limp wristing and firing with only 2 fingers and it just eats everything.  Very good accuracy.

The 9mm is  a better choice over the .380 and you get the added bonus of a 10 round mag over the Sig's 7.  Plus Glock high caps in the 9mm series can be used as back-up mags.

I owned a Sig 230 and I cannot find fault with the weapon, I just think you and she may be better served by the G26.  

Cost is about 435.00 plus you dealers markup if any.  I think it may be worth the extra 100.00 to 150.00 for the Glock.

Just something to consider.

If you’re serious about arming your girl friend, get her a small frame .357
Such as a model 65 S&W (yeah I know, boo hisss, boo) or a small frame Taurus.
Load it with some hot +P .38 JHP.

Teach her how to shoot it.  Not just point and shoot. But loading, unloading and
the basic operation of the mechanism.

Yeah the Sig is cool and nice dependable hand gun.
But, a revolver is nearly fool proof, pick it up, point and shoot.

For defensive life threatening situations, an auto loading handgun should only be
used by someone who has the upmost understanding and training with an auto.
Anything else is asking for trouble.  What do I think qualifies as training?  Let me
just say this, I suspect about half the law enforcement community lacks the proper
training to be carrying an auto loader.

You want her dead, get her an auto, want to keep her alive get a revolver.

Save the macho autos for the range.

Sell the AK, as she can't use it, buy a gun and the ring. Cor-Bon makes hot .380 ammo.
Rightous Kill is being a little DRAMATIC as John Lott documents that most crimes are thwarted by the mere showing of a gun, but
you should allow her to pick the gun that she is most comfortable with as she is the one that is going to use it.

That is the thread I was thinking about.

Also good idea about the professional training for her.  For whatever reason, this training seems to be taken more seriously than the do-it-yourself like this honey type help.

The KelTec 9mm is also a good choice, it's very compact but the trigger is a little stiff.  Price range is between $215-245.  It'll eat Cor-Bon +P's w/ no problems and she'd have 10rds. of a very capable caliber.

if its not for CCW, size won't matter. a Beretta 92FS with surefire light, and load it with 124gr+p's.
Easy to shoot well. Bigger gun means more itimidation factor. Also the weight of the surefire can also dampen the recoil.

But the set up will cost you more....
$650 min.

The Sig is an excellent ccw pistol.
I had a P230sl with factory wood grip, it was beautiful. My Gril friend loved it so much, she stole it from me.

Dramatic, perhaps.
But look at the topic.
Arming a person that may have to kill
someone in self defense.

Let us say you where going to make a bet.
The stakes are the life of your girlfriend or wife.

Wouldn’t you choose to have the extra margin
of safety that a revolver adds?
Even if it was a small margin. (Which it’s not, it’s
a rather large one, with all things considered.)

The fact at hand is Murphy’s law.
And the automatic pistol adds a lot more
variables than a revolver.

I have a sig P230, the wife shoots it all the time.
But, in the purse, in the night stand, a LadySmith
model 65.

If she wakes up in the middle of the night.
All she has to do it pick it up.

With an Auto: Noise wake your wife up in the middle of the night

IS THE SAFETY ON OR OFF?!?
IS THERE ONE IN THE CHAMBER?!? REMEMBER IT’S DARK
IS THE MAGAZINE IN THE GUN?!? JUST WOKE UP.
PULL THE TRIGGER AND HERE CLICK!! OH SHIT, NOW WHAT?!?
ONE BANG, THEN NOTHING.
IS THE EMPTY STUCK IN THE EJECTION PORT?
IS THE NEXT ROUND JAMMED IN THE MAGAZINE/CHAMBER?
HOW THE HELL TO I GET THE MAG OUT?
IT’S DARK, YOU CAN’T SEE ANYTHING.

With the Revolver: Noise wakes your wife up in the night.

PULL THE TRIGGER.
DOESN’T SHOOT!!!, PULL IT AGAIN.

What would you rather your wife had?

I personally prefer my Glock 19 over any of the revolvers I have fired.  However, any auto will add more variables, as several other posters have pointed out.  My biggest problem with learning to shoot autos was keeping my wrist locked to avoid misfires.  I would say to go with whichever weapon your girlfriend is most comfortable with.  If the weapon doesn't fit her hand well or she simply doesn't like it, she may not be happy with it.  The easiest way to encourage someone to shoot is to give them something they like and enjoy using.  [8)]

I hate to say this, as I love my Glocks, but a revolver is the only way to go for the next 3 months for your girlfriend.  Unless she has been out shooting, and is willing to continue shooting and training heavily for the next little while, a revolver is going to be better for her.  Down the line, any semi-auto will do if she would like the extra firepower.

Additionally, I remember when my wife was learning about shooting, there was a concern about her inability to hit the target until about the 3rd time at the range.  What I told her then, and what I continue to tell her, even though she aims a lot better now...  EMPTY THE GUN!  Methodically, keep pulling the trigger on the target until the gun is empty.  

The only problem is that the first 2 times she was at the range, at 25 feet (the outside of the ring where she might have problems with) she had one body shot.  A .380 even in the body, may not suffice for keeping the bad guy down.

Bottom line:  Ask your dad if you can set her up with a revolver for now, and you'll buy the Sig later.  Even a loaner might be good...  

Good job protecting your loved one!!!

Just a thought !

Makorov ?
http://makarov.com/makbasics.html
 [::)]

I have two SIGS but not that model. I have never
had a problem with either of them or my issue SIG. Do it!

I have to side with the revolver crowd on this one. I usually carry a Ruger SP101, especially in the summer. I keep it loaded with .357 Mag, but for her I'd go with some +p .38. The gun will fire no matter what. Accuracy is only of minor concern since defensive ranges are usually only a couple of feet. If she needs accuracy, she probably should be seeking cover or not shooting in the first place. An attacker that doesn't know she's armed will be within a couple of feet.
I do carry autos when I can conceal them, but even then if I'm going somewhere "risky" like in the city, I have the Ruger for backup. It fits right in my pocket and just disappears.

MY FEELINGS EXACTLY !!!

There is no way to predict how a person will react in a life threatening confrontation ...

A revolver only ELIMINATES the possibility of human error while reacting or trying to figure out whats going on, especially if you just woke-up from a deep sleep.

Don't get me wrong, I like my pistols too...but my revolver is ALWAYS gonna shoot when I squeeze the trigger, NO MATTER WHAT !!!
(as long as it's loaded [:)])    

Thanks for all the input guys.

He told me a couple of weeks ago that he was thinking of selling the Sig, about the time all this happened.  I remembered it being a small, sweet shooting gun, so I connected it in my mind with her.

Some of you have mentioned revolvers.  That's probably sound advice.  She's shot very little in her life, so it would be easier and more reliable to get her started.

I remembered that he also a S&W Chief's Special .38.  That's probably the best gun for her.  I may get the sig anyways to play with and give her later.  I think she could handle the .38 better too, all things considered.

I just need to keep it small.  I can completely conceal her fist in my hand, she has very small hands.  I think her ring size is 3 if that tells you anything.

Thanks again for advice.  Be back in a couple of days, maybe with some new toys!!

I own a Sig-230 as my backup weapon...LEO. This is an excellent weapon. I just requalified with mine and even went through our combat tactical course with it and scored a 100.

The weapon will hold about a 3-4 inch group with a lot of practice.

The ONLY draw back to this Sig is the Mag Release ...it is on the bottom of the Mag Insert area and a little cumbersome. With some practice though and since she has little to no practice with a normal Mag release it should work out well for you.

I carry exclusively Hydro-Shocks in the weapon. At 25 yards you will probably shoot high. I aim for the middle of the chest (6 inches below the chin) and will make a 3" group in the head area consistently.

All you guys are on the revolver bandwagon.  Sure they are reliable, but I have had failures from a Python, an SW M49 and an SW M629.  And if the revolver fails, you're done.  If the auto fails, usually an immediate action drill gets it shooting again.

And remember that DA trigger pull on every shot.

YMMV.  My sig other carries a Glock 9mm and hates revolvers with a passion.  Personally, I'd feel well-armed with a revolver, but they are not necessarily stone reliable.

Yes a revolver can malfunction, I’ve seen a Taurus jambed up good, but very
unlikely.  I don’t know you situation, but most revolver failures are from people
messing with the triggers and/or taking them apart.  If it works when you put it
up, it will work when you pull it out.  Pythons are nice handguns, but overly
complicated.

The Sig P230 is probably the finest  .380 auto on the market.
Yes, women can learn to use an auto.  A good friend's wife carries a SIG P229,
but she can handle it better than most cops I’ve seen.


I suggested a small frame 357 revolver for several reasons.

*Size and weight is better for smaller hands.
*A 357 gun will handle a wide variety of ammo.
*You can start her off with very light 38 special loads, also inexpensive.
*The .38 special is very comfortable in the smaller magnum frames.
*She can work up to +P ammo, and the gun can take the load easy.
*When and if the time is right, full house 357 is THE defense round.

Stick with the steel guns, the light gun is nice for carry, but the extra weight helps
keep the recoil down for training and becoming comfortable with the gun.
If it hurts to shoot, she’s not going to want to practice, trust me.

The model 36/60 S&W, aka Chiefs Special can be unpleasant to shoot, even with
standard 38 loads.  It’s light weight and shot barrel it better for carry than use.
And they’re only a five shot.

My wife’s lady-smith has the 3" barrel and full under lug.  She prefers to shoot
the heavier 4" M65 and 6" M686, due to less recoil.  The lady-smith makes a nice
compromise between size and usability, she can handle it even with 357 loads.
For comparison my wife is 5'5" and about 120 lbs.

I also suggest getting a gun with a real hammer.  This allows her to shoot the gun
single action, which helps accuracy making her more comfortable with the gun.  I
do however suggest proper training with the double action trigger, as this is how
the gun should be used in a defensive situation.  

Model 65 smiths are cheap, the non-stainless version are even less. Expect to pay
a little more for a round butt, which is what you want.  Taurus also makes some
really nice stainless models that are lot less money than a Sig P232.  Taurus also
makes some nice compact 7 shots.

Most important is, shoot, shoot and shoot some more.  Getting comfortable with
the gun is going to be the best prep for any situations.

I bought a Bersa Thunder 380 for my wife thinking that she would be able to control the smaller .380 better then my Beretta 92 or 96. I was wrong, while the .40 had her all over the place she could shoot the 9mm alot beter then the smaller .380. When I tried the Bersa it did seem like the smaller .380 had a hell of a lot more muzzle lift them the Beretta.

Other point to think about- will she use the gun to stop an attacker or "just try scare them". The reason I bring this up is afew people I have talked to seemed to think that just pointing the weapon would stop the bad guy in his tracks with no further action than just taking aim. A gun knows no loyality!!!

Like some of these other gentlemen said it all depends.  If she has some time to go and practice once in a while then I would suggest the glock 19.  The grip should be able to fit most small hands.  The Glock pistol just has to have the slide racked back with full magazine of 9mm (I prefer hydrashocks) and then the slide relased to chamber a round.  Then all she has to do is pull the trigger.  No external safeties to fool around with or worry about.  But if she can only go once in a great while to practice her shooting skills then I suggest some kind of revolver that fits her hand and that she is not afraid to shoot.  Actually the bigger the gun is the easier it is to shoot.  I highly recommend letting her shoot all kinds of guns and only buy one that she really like shooting and knows that she can handle.  Confidence is eveything.  Next to practical skill and technique.  
Good luck. Be safe
oh yeah.  Do'nt forget to teach her the laws about when to shoot and when not to shoot.  Some books By the Exspert Masaad Ayoob would definitely help anyone.

Sig 245

Gee, looks like you need more opinions.  If I had to use only one Pistol the rest of my life it would be the Glock 23, and I have shot a lot of different pistols.  If your girlfriend has really small hands try one of those Glock smaller models like the 27, or even the 36.

Over 50% of all the pistols used at Thunder Ranch's pistol training course are Glocks.  The just work.  Right out of the box.  

I have to chime in with the revolver guys, over 20 years in the military and I still carry a revolver. Another thing you may consider is can she work the slide, my wife is not a gun person and can't work the slide on the .25 I got from my father's estate, but she has no problem with the Rossi 68 on the nightstand. My carry gun is now a Dan Wesson M15 in .357 with a 2.5" barrel but it is a little much for her, The Rossie loaded with standerd velocity loads is what she likes and I am not about to argue with her.

All of the reasons already listed are why when my ex and I split up I insisted on keeping the .41 magnum [i]revolver[/i] for my home protection.  

Many have suggested proper training and regular time at the range... very sound advice.  What helped me the most, however, was handling weapons [i]every day[/i].  At first I thought it was strange that everytime we sat down in the evening to watch tv, two or three guns would automatically appear on the coffee table.  I would just watch him handle them, disassemble them, dry fire, etc.  Then I got curious and started asking questions and handling them every night as well.  It goes a long way to be COMFORTABLE handling your weapon.  If a situation arises you are going to be nervous and will make mistakes.. guaranteed.  If you are routinely handling your weapon it becomes second nature and you will make [i]less[/i] mistakes.

If you want her to move to autos, have her practice loading and dropping mags, locking back the slide, etc at home every night.  I'm not a little girl but it was difficult for me to coordinate locking back the slide and clearing a weapon at first.  Also, get her used to range safety practices at home that way she'll be more confident when she gets to the range... i.e. handling every weapon as if it's loaded, keep your finger off the trigger, always aim your weapon down range, how to clear a jam, etc.  

Just my .02.      

I just recently shot a friends 14oz DAO S&W 342PD a hamerless 5-shot J-frame with a titanium cylinder at the local range.  I shot some 38 SPLs with 3.4g of Alliant Unique.  This is the lowest powder charge for a 38 SPL recommended by the Lyman's reloading manual.  I had a terrible time keeping 5" shot group at 21 feet.  I also shot a 24 oz all stainless DAO S&W 640.  Much easier to shot.  Shooting full power loads was really painful(5.0 grains Unique) thru that gun.

You may also want the DAO-type gun because under stress, there could be an accidental discharge, if a hammer was cocked.  There was an incident in Santa Ana, Calif, where a person had a probable accidental discharge and killed a kid trying to steal a Halloween pumpkin.  The DA is prosecuting the shooter on 2nd degree murder charge.

Surviving the subsequent investigation should also be considered when selecting a gun.

Well, I know you all say revolver, but since I am an auto man I have to atleast suggest an auto (even though a revolver is still the way to go).  IF you get her an auto, get the best small 9mm you can right away.  SIG P228, or the HK USP Compact.  Both are fairly easy to operate, and the reason i would stay wtih an auto...is the fact that lack of experience with DA triggers can lead to shots placed no-where near the target.  First time I tried DA on a revolver (first time I shot) I didnt even hit the paper.  Now I can, after a few years of shooting (I could after about 2 times shooting, but hey, gotta make my point)  Single action would be much easier for a female to handle, and the action of racking the slide alone also pulls the hammer back.  USP's and the SIGs are fairly resistant to limp wristing effects, and are reliable enough for you not to worry about jamming or not firing.  Basically, tell her to keep a loaded mag in the gun.  If she pulls the trigger and nothing happens, she just pulls back the slide instead of pulling the trigger again as in a revolver.  I dont think a gun like a USP or a SIG will ever misfire or jam anyways.  If I were you, I would buy her a USP/surefire combination.  If not, get her a baseball bat and a revolver.  All it really would take is about a week at the range every day for her to know the automatic pistol enough to be able to handle it.  My girlfriend knew how to disassemble my beretta 92 after shooting it 3 times.  And she hates guns.

Then again, a revolver is a sure fire way to ensure the gun will fire, and hte best choice.  I said what I said because IF you decide to go for an auto, you may take into consideration what I've said.  If you love her, 650 bucks for a USP and a light is a small price to pay for the best insurance policy in the world.  And some training.