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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:34:24 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I like the BRZ/GT86. All the bitching about lack of power a little justified in some cases. Why not stick the flat-six in there and bump it up to something like 300 RWH? No turbo, leave it N/A. I like the way you think make the front end a foot longer, more wheelbase. Do that and it would have the Silhouettes Of a old 60s European sports car |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:44:51 AM EDT
[#2]
I'd like to see that as well and it does fit. They should use the engine from the GT3 as a goal.
Sadly Subaru has proven they don't listen to their enthusiast base which is why the BRZ still has no turbo and why the STi is basically unchanged from the 2004 model. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:46:51 AM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:54:57 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
I like the BRZ/GT86. All the bitching about lack of power a little justified in some cases. Why not stick the flat-six in there and bump it up to something like 300 RWH? No turbo, leave it N/A. It's probably easier to put a turbo-charger in there, space-wise, for additional torque and horsepower. Maybe, there's some TRD version coming up with a supercharger or turbocharger. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:56:36 AM EDT
[#5]
Because Subaru has better things to do than try to increase the output of a poorly selling RWD Toyota.
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:02:08 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryMiata is a dog? LS Subaru can't get out of its own way? LS. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:03:39 AM EDT
[#7]
Edit...wrong data
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:06:24 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because Subaru has better things to do than try to increase the output of a poorly selling RWD Toyota. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:07:01 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The best way to keep a low selling car is to leave it exactly how it is. Everyone says the same thing about the BRZ... NEEDS MORE POWER. Especially when you consider the WRX is cheaper then the BRZ and comes with AWD and Turbo. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:07:46 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
why take away sales from the WRX? |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:10:52 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote History |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:14:04 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
why take away sales from the WRX? A 300+ HP BRZ would take sales from RWD cars from Subaru's competition. Right now the BRZ only competes with the Miata which is a niche market and it isn't doing that well considering there's no roadster option. If Subaru wants to start moving the BRZ they need a convertible option and an STi version with at least 300hp. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:14:07 AM EDT
[#13]
Add supercharger. Done.
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:14:51 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because they are separate cars for different people. Toyota gave up on it, and Subaru doesn't care for RWD cars, nor does it fit their US demographics. There's no good way of stuffing AWD into it. It's dead, Jim. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:14:57 AM EDT
[#15]
Can't wait until a LS-powered one shows up at a local Open Track Day!
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:15:24 AM EDT
[#16]
I don’t think the BRZ needs a turbo or even a ton more power. Rather than increase cost/complexity/weight they should just switch from the NA 2.0L engine to something like a 2.5L set up the same way. FIgure that gives you 250HP and doesn’t really add any weight or complexity or extra cost and 250HP in a 2700# car is pretty damn good at that price point.
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:16:45 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It doesn't work like that. Different markets. If that were the case GM never would have sold the GTO, Camaro, TA, G8, SS...etc because it would hurt Vette sales. A 300+ HP BRZ would take sales from RWD cars from Subaru's competition. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:17:01 AM EDT
[#18]
Because Toyota doesn't know how to put out an exciting product that delivers on HP since the 90s. A flat 6 would be great but the 3.6L is the only Subaru engine that you can draw from and they only put out like 250hp and weighs more, throwing off the balance.
They also won't do it because of the joint venture with BMW for the new Supra which will have an overly complicated BMW engine that is a maintenance hog and boring muted styling because it's Toyota. The worst of both worlds. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:17:33 AM EDT
[#19]
Put the wrx drivetrain in the brz
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:19:34 AM EDT
[#20]
Jackson Racing makes a supercharger that boosts 50%HP and 45% torque.
And it's somehow 50 state legal... |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:24:43 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
car manufacturers don't chase failed projects to keep a few hundred people happy. Toyota gave up on it, and Subaru doesn't care for RWD cars, nor does it fit their US demographics. There's no good way of stuffing AWD into it. It's dead, Jim. Leave it rwd and put the WRX or sti ENGINE in. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:29:45 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not Awd. Leave it rwd and put the WRX or sti ENGINE in. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:30:16 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don’t think I’d ever point to GM and argue what they do is the optimal business strategy, especially since most of those cars failed their way out of the marketplace. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:31:28 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So now it’s 28xx pounds and $30k base price. 
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:32:19 AM EDT
[#25]
I agree that could be cool. Subaru has made some decent 6 cylinder engines in the past. Maybe something like a 3.0 or 3.4 liter H-6 with direct injection and a throaty exhaust.
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:33:35 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because they are separate cars for different people. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
why take away sales from the WRX? |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:34:48 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK. Then apply my argument to any other auto maker. It isn't restricted to sports cars either. Look how many different SUV's and crossovers Toyota or Mercedes sells that are all similar in size to things they already sell. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I don’t think I’d ever point to GM and argue what they do is the optimal business strategy, especially since most of those cars failed their way out of the marketplace. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:35:10 AM EDT
[#28]
You can add 120 hp for far less than an LS swap.
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:36:15 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And still a better deal than a 370z. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So now it’s 28xx pounds and $30k base price. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:42:43 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Similar in size to cars they already sell? I don’t think the legions of soccer moms driving SUVs were ever seriously considering buying an E350 or whatever forgettable car Toyota sells. On the other hand the guy who wants a WRX or a BRZ probably isn’t looking at a totally different type of vehicle, so there’s a much higher chance of a more powerful BRZ cannibalizing a WRX sale than there is of some Mercedes SUV cannibalizing an E class sale. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:45:33 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Perhaps, but that’s a pretty low target. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:47:30 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're comparing SUVs to an Eclass which is a sedan and that has nothing to do with my point. Those are two different classes of vehicles. Walk into a Toyota dealer and count how many SUVs they sell or better yet a Jeep dealer. Subaru has very little market overlap in it's lineup. Sure some BRZturbo buyers might have bought an STi if the BRZturbo never existed but there's also people who may have bought a 370z, Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, Boxster, whatever RX8 successor is coming...etc. On top of that most of the parts needed to build the BRZturbo are already on the shelves at Subaru so adding another trim to cover more of the sports car market wouldn't cost them much. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Similar in size to cars they already sell? I don’t think the legions of soccer moms driving SUVs were ever seriously considering buying an E350 or whatever forgettable car Toyota sells. On the other hand the guy who wants a WRX or a BRZ probably isn’t looking at a totally different type of vehicle, so there’s a much higher chance of a more powerful BRZ cannibalizing a WRX sale than there is of some Mercedes SUV cannibalizing an E class sale. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:52:23 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess I wasn’t sure what your point was. In any case I don’t think you can compare shopping decisions for enthusiast cars to shopping decisions for generic SUVs bought for suburban housewives who likely don’t even know what an engine is. Besides if a specific market has 10 options and you own 1 you stand a better chance of making more money if you own 2 out of 11 options. Assuming of course you are smart with production costs. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:53:05 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK then insert any RWD coupe you like under 40k. Still a better bang for the buck at 10k less. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Perhaps, but that’s a pretty low target. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:57:36 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess I wasn’t sure what your point was. In any case I don’t think you can compare shopping decisions for enthusiast cars to shopping decisions for generic SUVs bought for suburban housewives who likely don’t even know what an engine is. Having a red n/a 200hp BRZ for the same price as the roughly 300hp AWD car is retarded. There isn't anything like use of CF to justify the difference. And this is where the enthusiast looks, sees the price, sees the mediocre performance specs, and generally shops elsewhere. Meanwhile what did it cost to fix the problem, an engine that is already being produced? Doesn't seem that much of a problem. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:58:44 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
why take away sales from the WRX? |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 12:00:19 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can add 120 hp for far less than an LS swap. http://cdn.speednik.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2015/10/2015-10-24_06-34-57.jpg |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 12:02:03 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Generally it is like minivans wanting doo-dads and truck folks wanting to rating. Sports car people want cars that go fast. So a fast mustang, fast BRZ, and fast 370Z all jump in the same price point and from there it is a mix of issues. Like every other car cross shopping purchase in the history of car shopping. Having a red n/a 200hp BRZ for the same price as the roughly 300hp AWD car is retarded. There isn't anything like use of CF to justify the difference. And this is where the enthusiast looks, sees the price, sees the mediocre performance specs, and generally shops elsewhere. Meanwhile what did it cost to fix the problem, an engine that is already being produced? Doesn't seem that much of a problem. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 12:02:33 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Depends on what they sacrifice to get there. A small, light car with modest power and a reasonable price provides, to some people, a better value than a $40k Camaro or Mustang. I think a BRZ with 250HP that can maintain the 27xx weight it currently has and maintain the mid-high $20k price range is more appealing to more people than a heavier and more expensive version of the same car with what, 300HP? The people who really want that power can easily add it in the aftermarket at this point and Subaru can still offer the lighter and less expensive car with what they have now or if they put a larger displacement NA engine into it. You're right people can mod their current car but a factory warranty is more appealing. Many modders wait until their warranty expires before modding. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 12:05:32 PM EDT
[#40]
A buddy of mine has an FRS (same as the BRZ if you're unaware) with a 5.7l LS swap, it's a beast.
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Posted: 8/1/2017 12:06:48 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was advocating adding a turbo trim to the lineup, not completely ditching the current car. Sell the BRZ as it is now, the limited, and an STi trim with 300hp. You're right people can mod their current car but a factory warranty is more appealing. Many modders wait until their warranty expires before modding. I agree on the warranty too, I’m waiting until my power train warranty is done on my RS before I start playing with the engine. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 12:08:29 PM EDT
[#42]
Toyota doesn't give a shit about sports cars, and their 'sporty' Lexuses don't sell.
Subaru doesn't give a shit about a RWD Toyota with tanking sales. They do fine with the WRX and STi and the rest of their customers beat down their doors to buy Outbacks. The 86 is dead. Go get the new Mustang if you want a quick RWD car. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 1:40:23 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I could get behind that as an option, but I really don’t think there’s as much demand as some people assume (and I think much of that would be satisfied by a better NA engine.) I agree on the warranty too, I’m waiting until my power train warranty is done on my RS before I start playing with the engine. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I was advocating adding a turbo trim to the lineup, not completely ditching the current car. Sell the BRZ as it is now, the limited, and an STi trim with 300hp. You're right people can mod their current car but a factory warranty is more appealing. Many modders wait until their warranty expires before modding. I agree on the warranty too, I’m waiting until my power train warranty is done on my RS before I start playing with the engine. I think you're right, that the best method of increasing power in the twins is to shove a slightly larger (2.5) and to bump the HP/torque numbers just a bit. I've often said that at 250HP/210-230 torque, the car would be near perfect. 0-60 just needs to be in the mid 5 second range, doesn't need to be blistering fast. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 1:45:53 PM EDT
[#44]
It's not like Subaru has ever put a turbo on an FA20...
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Posted: 8/1/2017 1:53:00 PM EDT
[#45]
The BRZ will match the performance of the Miata, which is its competitor.
There will not be a factory 300HP BRZ until there is a factory 300HP Miata. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 1:56:27 PM EDT
[#46]
There are a few imprezas around here with 3.6L legacy swaps. So I'm sure someone will try it.
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Posted: 8/1/2017 1:57:15 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The BRZ will match the performance of the Miata, which is its competitor. There will not be a factory 300HP BRZ until there is a factory 300HP Miata. I don't even see them in California. Nobody wants a tiny rear wheel drive car with mediocre engine output. Just because there are forms of enthusiasts who seem to think that this is the best fucking thing since the invention of the wheel, doesn't mean the companies that make these things won't kill them because they aren't selling. Toyota killed the FJ cruiser, an arguably much more successful vehicle for far less. Scion is dead, Toyota USA makes passenger cars, trucks, and SUVs. It has no reason to sell a sports car. Subaru makes all wheel drive vehicles, it has no reason to make a real wheel drive car. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 2:14:37 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because Subaru has better things to do than try to increase the output of a poorly selling RWD Toyota. 
ETA: The Miata is only a "competitor" due to the BRZ's lack of power, and even if you stretch that far, not really, because the Miata is a roadster, and the BRZ, isn't. 
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Posted: 8/1/2017 2:18:07 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Perhaps they wouldn't be so poorly selling if they had at least 300hp so as to be a competitive option when compared to other cars in its class? Toyota wanted a rear wheel drive car, then they bailed on the project, and left Subaru hanging. I went car shopping with a lady friend recently who was shopping a Mustang against the 86, and she drove the Ford first. When she drove the 86, it was slower, handled poorly, and cost the same as the current generation Mustang, and all the dealer had to say was some subjective nonsense about the transmission or the handling, which was pure bullshit because the current generation mustang kicks the shit out of it in terms of price and power output. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 2:33:13 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
it just doesn't make sense from their sales strategy viewpoint. If they really wanted this to be a competitor, they would have engineered it so you can install an all wheel drivetrain and make more room for bigger and better engines. Toyota wanted a rear wheel drive car, then they bailed on the project, and left Subaru hanging. I went car shopping with a lady friend recently who was shopping a Mustang against the 86, and she drove the Ford first. When she drove the 86, it was slower, handled poorly, and cost the same as the current generation Mustang, and all the dealer had to say was some subjective nonsense about the transmission or the handling, which was pure bullshit because the current generation mustang kicks the shit out of it in terms of price and power output. 
Due to how physics works, you could cut the "seat of the pants" advantage that the Ecoboost Mustang has with about 50-70 more HP, which can be easily done with a Turbo (or blower), which would add some weight, but not nearly enough to destroy whatever "balance" the car had. Of course, its real hard to spend another 5-8k on your new car just so it feels as fast as that Base Ecoboost Mustang that cost $5k less to start in the first place.
The problem with the BRZ (and the Miata) is that despite all of the bleating from the forum enthusiasts, they don't have enough power to be considered sports cars in the modern era, and their sales reflect this. Nobody wants a slow car that can turn fast, that's practically any FWD "sporty" car with decent tires.
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