I'm looking at getting a "modern," "tactical" bolt-action rifle.  I really like the Remington 700 Magpul so far, but I'm also looking at the Ruger RPR, and I've heard of the Tikka T3(x) Tactical.

One consideration is the round this rifle will be chambered in.  .308 is a classic round and I already have .308 ammo, so standardization of calibers would be achieved by going this route.  What I don't like about it is how much the bullet drops at long distances, particularly in wind.  I hear the .260 is much better in this regard, so I'm considering getting the Remington 700 Magpul in .260 REM instead.  I don't have anything else in that caliber, and I likely wouldn't get anything else either, for a while.

How does .260 REM compare to .308 as far as bullet drop, max range, and impact energy?  What would you guys recommend in this situation?

UPDATE: The plan is to order a Bergara HMR within the week:



For $850 ish, it meets my needs.  I am still deciding on whether it will be a .308 or a  6.5 Creedmoor.  Those are the options it comes in. The .260 REM is out of the running because the only reason I considered it was because of the Remington 700 Magpul.  Everybody seems to say STAY AWAY from it, so I will do so.

I could reload for the HMR since I have equipment, but would need to buy dies and all components for it.  Although most distances will be below 600 yards, I do plan to take it hunting as well as just a precision range toy.

I have a RPR in 6.5 Creedmoor.
I routinely shoot with a friend that is shooting a Rem700 .308, we are both comparable shooters and at distances of 800 yards and further it is much easier for me to hit steel than him.
I really love the 6.5 Creedmoor, but the 260 is very comparable.

http://www.accuracy-tech.com/6-5-creedmoor-vs-308-winchester/

260 compares with 6.5 creedmoor. Where 308 starts to drop like a stone at 800 yards, they keep flying. Their long range projectiles have a higher ballistic coefficient so they keep their energy further. You have to go up to 210 and 220 grain bullets to match that bc and then the 308 has a hard time pushing those.

I was just noting that there are some new long range bullets coming out for 243/6mm. That might also be an option for you.

If you handload, 6.5 or 260.
You can find 308 ammo (and components) everywhere, not necessarily so with the other two

How far out do you expect to shoot?  
6.5s are indeed flatter shooting, and can (depending... lots of variables) buck the wind a bit better.
Which gets important out beyond 700-800 yards.

.260 and 6.5 Creedmoor are very similar cartridges. My match rifle is chambered in 260. I am a fan of the cartridge because of a little bit more case capacity letting you hot rod a slight bit more over the Creedmoor. I can also make 260 brass from several other cases (243, 7mm-08, 308) and that appeals to me. That being said, if you don't reload 100% go with the Creedmoor, it has much more widely available factory loadings than 260 does. Performance over 308 is pretty substantial. At 1,000yds my .260 is about 8.5mils elevation and my 308 load is 11.4 mils. And it does fight the wind quite a bit better. Only trade off with 6.5 is barrel life.

The Magpul Remington in .260 would be appealing to me for what it costs, I think I've seen it mentioned they were around 800 street price maybe, IMO thats not bad to just need to slap an optic on and go. I was squadded with some guys from Remington's pro staff at a PRS match last year and they were shooting them and appeared to shoot really well.  I'm not familiar with the Tikka but have heard really good things about them. The Ruger's in my experience need a barrel if you intend to do any match work or sustained fire as the few I've been around tended to wander around after the barrels heated up. That being said the RPR is a fantastic value for the money. You can drop a custom barrel in it and still be farther ahead than a custom build.

It's a good time to get into the precision rifle market.

I'd take a RPR, Tikka, or Howa in 6.5 Creedmoor, blows past the 308 and keeps going. Better ballistics, plenty of factory match loads to shoot and is equal in cost if not cheaper.

6.5c, bench gun? RPR. field gun? T3x CTR. Have both, won't let go of the CTR. The RPR will move on.

the 6.5 creed will be easier to shoot, the 308 will to slightly cheaper to shoot and "teach" you more skills... no real wrong answer.

You might also look at 300 win mag, I just happened into one and kind of like how it makes my man parts feel all tingly

O' and I have a 700 in 308 that I put a magpul hunter stock on.... absolutely love the rifle.

I should say that while I would like to theoretically shoot long distance, the closest ranges to me are 100-200 yards, and I need to drive an hour away to get 400-600 yards.  I'd like this to learn tactical precision shooting, and may use it for hunting.

For some reason I'm really feeling the 700 Magpul, and I'm encouraged by initial impressions, despite comments that Remington QC has decreased in recent years.

How does .260 compared to .308?  Does a 22" barrel do anything for the .260 compared to the .308?  I remember reading here that the difference between 18" and 20" for .308 was negligible, so 22" seems like overkill.

At those distances just get a .308

If you plan on going on further.

.260 if you reload, 6.5 Creedmoor if you don't. Hell even if you do reload 6.5 is probably still a better choice. My current AI is .260 and my next barrel will be a 6.5CM. Match ammo is everywhere for the 6.5 and it costs about the same as .308.

6.5 creedmoor all day every day.

What's this I'm hearing about 6.5 CM barrels wearing out faster than .308?

Smaller bore, so yeah, they do. Just like a 243 wears out faster yet.

Under 600 yds .308.  Especially if your new to shooting.  Its a great round and popular.  Lots of ammo and there is still surplus ammo showing up.  If you want to start shooting out to 1000 yds + you want a 6.5.  When that time comes, their might be a new better round out there.  If you want to kill something that far out then .300 WM or .338 lapua come to mind.

Both are similar but 260 is a better cartridge if you are not limited by ar-10 mag length.

Get 260 for bolt guns, and 6.5 for gas guns

Are you planning on shooting animals, or just paper?

If just paper, there is practically no reason to go bigger than 6mm.  Any barrel life saved will not be worth extra cost in bullets, performance, or recoil.

If you do plan to shoot animals, the size and toughness of your quarry will dictate cartridge choice.

The RPR is a great out of the box rifle except for the keymod which can be replaced, the Magpul 700 might be hit or miss depending whether Remington made it on a good day.

Anything past 700 is not my game, and .308 is my game to that distance. I have the ammo for it, dies, components that I can also use for .30-06, and I don't compete so trying to make one jagged hole at 87 million yards is not a concern to me.

Another 6.5 Creedmoor vote here. There's good factory available for it if you don't reload. If you reload it's easy to reload for. It has excellent ballistics and the recoil isn't bad at all. I definitely don't miss my rifle being a 308 Winchester.

Tikka in whatever flavor of 6.5 floats your boat. I prefer the creedmoor.

Creedmoor.

If .260 does have any advantage, it is grossly outweighed by the market momentum of the 6.5.

6.5 creedmoor is measured in communist metric units. You're not a commie are you? ARE YOU?!?

This man knows. I've been debating this for a month and I've come to this conclusion. I do have a buttloads of .308 and 7mm-08 brass, and I do reload, but resizing brass isn't a perfect science and if I'm really shooting for accuracy, I'll want fire formed match brass anyway.

.260 is legit, but 6.5 has just enough momentum that ammo and aftermarket are built up. FWIW, Hornady indicates they will be producing match .260 ammo some time soon, but I haven't seen it in person.

Really looking forward to adding an RPR to the safe later this year in 6.5 Creedmore

If your local ranges are short, and you're not planning on hunting (eta- OP said may not will)  I'd get a rifle in 5.56.  
Cheap ammo
Will shoot well out to 600M+ (M855 will ring steel at 1000 with a decent barrel) 
Will let you learn all the range and wind calls on the reduced range. 

eta- that's predicated on the statement "I would like to theoretically shoot long distance, the closest ranges to me are 100-200 yards..."


Precision rifle and hunting CAN start diverging at some point where each branch gives diminishing return to the other.  

6.5cm would be the best choice if you plan to use it for precision shooting, and for hunting. .308's OK but has been outpaced in the precision shooting world by quite a margin.

Apparently 6.5 CM is looking at a 2000-2500 round barrel life, whereas .308 is a 5000-8000+ round barrel life.  It looks like a .308 barrel will be accurate and last at least 3x longer.
6.5 Creedmoor Barrel Life



I have old bolt rifles, like Swiss K31 and Mosin Nagant, that I've shot at 100-200 yards.



The 700 Magpul takes AICS style PMags, so would .260 rounds fit in them if I went with that rifle?  It seems like a good cartridge for a bolt gun, with the 6.5 CM winning out in semi-autos.


I may take it to go deer hunting in the NE, and black bear might be a possibility in the future, but would not be the primary purpose.  This would be to learn fundamentals of precision shooting and hunting as a secondary purpose.

I'm definitely NOT a fan of the keymod and I prefer MLOK.  I hope Ruger comes out with an improved MLOK handguard.

I had the chance to hold an "improved" RPR in a local shop.  It felt pretty nice and solid, a little on the heavy side.  I like the rifle, sans the keymod, but they were asking $1500 for it.  They did not have a 700 Magpul, only the ADL, and the ADL was lackluster, although it's understood that it's an entry level model, and the 700 Magpul has many "upgrades."

Although it would be cool to have the capability of proving Overwatch for somebody from a mile away, it's doubtful that would occur.  I don't see a situation of going beyond 700 yards, to be honest.  It's something that would be nice to have, but not something I'd need to go out of my way to do.



Why don't you miss .308 Winchester?  Is the recoil too much and too harsh?  What don't you like about it?

How exactly do the ballistics compare to .308?


I'm not sure how throat erosion works on the .260, but with the 6.5 CM it's pretty bad.  2000-2500 round barrel life sounds crappy to me.  And this would be on a bolt-action rifle instead of a semi-auto.

I like the idea of many factory loads, but otherwise I don't need to jump on the bandwagon just because it happens to be cool today.  I didn't get anything in .300 Blackout, resisting the urge, primarily because the cartridge excels in pistol/SBR territory, which I can't really do in NY.

I'm encouraged by Larue building .260 REM barrels and choosing that over 6.5 CM.  Is this Beta Max all over again?



I did read something online about group sizes opening up after the barrel gets heated.  Any confirmation to this?  Has it been remedied with the modified/improved version of this rifle?



As a buildAR I'm not looking for a 5.56 bolt gun.  I understand your points and appreciate your suggestion, but I'd like something bigger.

I would most likely use this rifle to go hunting with.  That is a real-world use where I would probably use it at a longer distance, so while not the primary purpose of the rifle, it is a benefit.

When you say the .308 has been outpaced in the precision shooting world by quite a margin, what specifically do you mean?

If going T3/T3x I would go 260 since Hornady Match ammo is available and the TRG/CTR magazines have a longer OAL option than AICS magazines plus they are short 10rd magazine while 10rd AICS magazines are really tall.

Here is my T3 CTR in 308 Win that I put a T3x stock on.  Scope is a Bushnell LRTSi 3-12x and I love this rifle.  It weighs 11lbs 4oz with the bipod and empty mag.  My other rifle is a AI AT but the CTR is my utility rifle.  I am very, very happy with the CTR even compared to my AT that cost a lot more.

308 because its cheap

I bought a 308 bolt gun simply so I could have a reason to neckbeard 308  

Also, during a panic, 308 is usually readily available hence why I want a 308 AR pattern rifle next.

Thinking ahead....

That is sexy.

.223 or .308 for your ranges make the most sense op.

He means that competitors use it so therefore you must. It doesn't  matter what you need, you must have the bleeding edge of performance. 

Attached File


I have a RPR 6.5 Creedmoor, and yes, I can confirm that after about 40 or 50 rounds of steady shooting the groups start opening up.
But honestly, that happens with all of my rifles not just the RPR - it's just the way life is unless you spend a lot of money on a custom carbon barrel or fluting.

Attached File


The throat erosion on the .260 is going to be very similar to the 6.5 CM.
The throat erosion on a barrel is function of heat and pressure - those are very similar between the two cartridges.
http://www.accuracy-tech.com/barrel-life/

While there is nothing wrong with the .260, I prefer the 6.5 CM as many people report that it is easier to find the sweet spot when hand loading - I found it very easy to find my accuracy load for my RPR.
The .260 can out-do the 6.5 CM if you "Ackley Improve" it, but I don't see any reason to do so (and again "hot-rodding" the .260 will only accelerate throat erosion).

.338 Lapua Mag. Buy once Cry once..

Not that this is definitive, but I was at a Cabelas recently and compared the availability 'on the shelf' of 6.5 CM and .260 Rem.  In 6.5, they had 3 Hornady loads and one from somebody else. In .260 Rem., they had zero, and no shelf space where any would be, and I looked for a LONG time.  Cabelas has a LOT of exotic ammo (they had 600 Nitro Express) so the complete absence of .260 Rem. really surprised me.

Did you make that projectile yourself?

I came here to type almost verbatim what this guy said. so,  what he said mostly.

I don't think the barrel life on a 6.5 is much, if any different than a .308. They are basically same capacity,  and only a slight reduction in bullet size.  Velocities are still below 3000 fps for the most part,  so I think you're still in the 3000-5000 rounds per barrel range depending on how hot you shoot it and how fast you dump rounds downrange.

actually every time you pull the trigger you'll cry, unless you have trump change.

338 lapua is pointless unless you are going for 2000 yards or more and even then it is an expensive round to shot even if you reload.

20 minutes in

If you're not familiar with it, Precision rifle matches (PRS) are tactical/ practical style matches with targets at different ranges.  Don't know about east coast but west coast it can go out to 12-1300 yards.
PRS by name is mostly a competition aggregated in the east coast, out west PR matches kind of have their own loose league. 

Anyways, the top shooters are almost all universally shooting a 6-6.5 bullet of some form. .308 doesn't get a mention unless it's in the "tactical" division, and that's limited to .308 and 5.56 only, aand even then as mentioned in the PRS blog, a guy shooting 5.56 placed third.
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/02/16/long-range-calibers-cartridges-what-the-pros-use/

Above link breaks down who shoots what.  Put this way, the top 100 PRS shooters is a pretty significant observable data point of what is working well for making hits at range in a pretty competitive match that goes WAY past KD ranges and things like F class and palma where .308 still hangs on only due to institutional inertia. 

It's not like any of that makes .308 BAD by any means, it performs as well as it ever does.  A guy I got a chance to shoot with once was a SFOD sniper instructor an made hits at crazy range with 5.56 and .308  that were incredible.  But the thing is, the 6.x calibers make that easier to obtain for normal people. 

Here's a vid one of the gals I used to shoot with put together about one of the more local matches.  Older vid, but shows some of the stuff. 









 

Another challenger enters the ring: Bergara HMR in .308 or 6.5 CM.



Should I be concerned about a 2-lug bolt instead of a 3-lug bolt?

Not to worry about two lug vs three lug bolt - hell, my 50BMG only has two lugs.
The main advantage of the three lug bolt is a shorter bolt throw for opening and closing the action - makes it quicker and less possibility of interference with the scope.

I'm one of those that believes everybody should own a .308 rifle. But I think 6.5C is the best bang for your buck for long range shooting.

No. Plenty of 2 lug 700s and savages and Mausers and mark2s and... you get the point. 3 lug gets a shorter bolt lift making it a little quicker to cycle the action.

I've been into the 260 Rem for 17 years. Not going to switch to a 6.5C at this point as I have 5 rifles chambered in 260 Rem. If I was starting out I would go 6.5C.

I have 2 308s and prefer the 260 by a mile. I reload for both and have never had a problem finding a good load for either, although I believe you could load a 308 case full of horse shit and seat a bullet and you'd get a sub MOA group with it. At least it seems that easy.

The barrels going between 2000-2500 are usually for match accuracy at high volumes. If your just shooting for fun and slow strings of fire your barrel will last longer.

I'd go RPR savage or Tikka before a 700. Savage and Ruger will take care of you if there's an issue, not so much for Remington. You don't hear about very many turds from Tikka.

Break out the trajectory tables and compare a 140 6.5 vs a 175- 180 30cal. Pretty easy to make a decision and you'll get less recoil from the 6.5, it's noticeable.

I've decided to skip the R700 Magpul (at least for now) because of the unreliability of Remington these days.

I have pretty much decided on the Bergara HMR because I like the stock, the integrated chassis, and the detachable AICS magazines.  What turns me off about the Tikka rifles is that it uses expensive proprietary magazines.  I like the Magpul magazine compatibility, which also gives the Bergara an edge over the Savage.

I'm leaning on getting the .308 because the HMR .308 comes with a 20" barrel, which I think is more on-point than a 22" barrel for the 6.5 Creedmoor.  If the 6.5 version came with a 24" or 26" barrel, I'd consider it more strongly.  I also think the .308 is better as a hunting cartridge than the 6.5, especially since I won't be shooting 1000 yard and beyond.

Are there any considerations I am missing?  Would you select a 22" 6.5 Creedmoor over a 20" .308?

Bergara HMR

I'm a huge 6.5 Creedmoor fan (I don't own a .308).
But since you already have .308 stuff and if you are hunting at ranges less than 800 yards, then imo you should stick with the .308.
If your goal was more longer range target/hunting then the 6.5 Creedmoor would be my choice - although I like at least a 24" barrel, a 22" would get the job done without much performance or velocity loss (about 40fps).
http://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/6-5-creedmoor-effect-of-barrel-length-on-velocity-cutting-up-a-creedmoor/
Just my opinion.

I have a Savage 10 BA Stealth in 6.5 Creedmoor.  It's my first foray into long range shooting.  

I do have a hunting 300 WSM that has no problem reaching out far.  But it's not really setup for that being a sporter weight rifle.  And it kicks a ton shooting off a bench.

Last week I shot the 6.5 CM up to 500 yards on a gong.  We had a quartering 13mph wind and my rifle is zeroed at 250 yds.

At 500 with the quartering wind my vertical and wind holds were 2.1 MRAD vertical and .75 MRAD horizontal and I could easily ring the gong time after time.  

The recoil is almost non existent and it's cheap and easy to buy ammo or reload for it.

I vote 6.5CM or .260.

The playing field is level for drop once you compensate for trajectory with your optic.

Now wind drift becomes the deciding factor of what is easier to hit targets with at distance.

6.5mm simply smokes the .308 for wind drift and retained energy, which is more comparable to a .30-06 really.  At 1000yds in a 10mph wind, you will see 1.5-2.1 mils of drift with most 130-147gr loads in 6.5mm.

With a .308 Win, even a 10" twist with 175s or 178s will put you at 2.8 to 3 mils, and most .308s have 12" or 11.25" twists, which will often not keep you stabilized past 800yds.  You can watch the gyroscopic stability come apart, with unpredictable impacts falling all over at distance, and even with a predictable gun with a tighter twist, the rounds are coming down like a mortar trajectory.  With 6.5mm, it's scary-flat, like what you would expect out of a true 1000yd cartridge, with less recoil.

Trajectory and wind with the .260 Rem/6.5 CM/6.5x47Lapua are like a 190gr-210gr .300 Win Mag, without the long action, recoil, and rifle weight penalties.

Now that Hornady introduced .260 Rem ammo with the 130gr ELD-M, .260 Rem quality target ammo is affordable for the first time that I can recall.

Hornady also has really supported and promoted the 6.5 Creedmoor in what I would call an exemplary manner in this market.

Nobody has come close to the level of product support in terms of a new cartridge that I can recall, other than the 6.5 Grendel, which is another option to consider.

If you just want to get into long range shooting for fun, a really great and super affordable way to do that without investing a lot up front is to get an upper in 6.5 Grendel, slap it on one of your AR15 lowers, and start to enjoy some very economical, super low recoil target shooting where you can get on the wind quicker for follow-up shots, learning the wind behavior much faster than with a bolt gun, which requires you to take your focus off of the target and conditions, and manipulate the action each time.

For short action cartridges, I went .260 Rem when 6.5CM was just new, as we weren't sure what would happen with 6.5CM, and 6.5x47L only has one brass source, albeit the best brass in the world from Lapua.

Since that time, Lapua has introduced .260 Rem brass, and just this year, they kicked out 6.5 Creedmoor brass with a small rifle primer pocket, which is going to be the brass to beat.

If you don't reload, I would get 6.5 Creedmoor if you are dead set on a bolt gun other than .308 Win.

After shooting 6.5s for so many years, every time I shoot someone's .308 Win., I get more validation for dumping it.

.308 is very easy to spot for though, as the slow speed, high-drag projectiles cause a lot of disruption to the air, and you get a beautiful vapor trail vortex, especially with 168s and 175s.

I'm so used to calling the wind for it, I can give you first-round hit wind corrections right out of the gate at 600-800yds in 10mph wind, if you have a solid rifle with the 175gr SMK, and are a solid shooter.

This guy knows what he is talking about ^^ and great advice. I'll never dump my .308 because those are within the ranges that I shoot them. and I can use the same projectiles to feed my .308 carbine, rifle, and the M1 Garand.

Thank you.  I am knocking .260 REM out for now since the reason it was an option was because of the Remington 700 Magpul, which I am deciding to skip.

I'm pretty much decided on the Bergara HMR above.  I think it's an excellent rifle for the price and some outlets have it around $850.  That leaves me with 6.5 Creedmoor or .308.

Looking at the ballistic information provided above, pertaining to muzzle velocity in different barrel lengths:

The best velocity for a 120gr AMAX bullet is a 27" barrel at 2961 fps.  A 22" barrel has 2872 fps muzzle velocity, a decrease of 89 fps.
The best velocity for a 142gr SMK bullet is a 24" barrel at 2683 fps.  A 22" barrel has has 2649 fps muzzle velocity, a decrease of 34 fps.

24" or 26" seems like the sweet spot for velocity, depending on if you are shooting lighter or heavier loads.  These changes do appear to be negligible.

One note from that writeup is this: "The 308/175 SMK outperformed the 6.5 Creedmoor/142 SMK inside of 800 yards, however, at 1,000 yards the superior characteristics of the 142 SMK allows it to perform better."

How much does it cost to reload for 6.5 Creedmoor?  How much powder does it use?  What dies are needed and how much will they run you?

Part of me thinks that everyone needs a .308 bolt action for hunting and target practice.  Will the 6.5 Creedmoor perform as well in this regard?  I don't like how it kills barrels 3x faster than .308.

Whoever said 175gr .308 out-performed 6.5CM with any of the 123gr-147gr bullets is simply wrong, and especially with a 142gr SMK.

They must be using some other parameter than hit probability, which is determined by wind drift and drop, and I can tell you that a 142gr SMK smokes the 175gr SMK all day long, even from a much shorter barrel.

I don't get too distracted with muzzle velocity anymore, not that .308 comes even close to 6.5CM with competitive bullets with high BC.

I look at BC first, because that is my biggest indicator of wind deflection.

There is simply no way to make a 175gr SMK even from a 26" barrel out-shoot a 142gr SMK from an 18" barrel, because the BC difference is so huge in favor of the 6.5mm 142gr SMK.

A 175gr SMK from a 24" barrel has 1 full mil of drift at 400yds.  That sucks.  Even the little 6.5 Grendel with a 123gr SMK from an 18" barrel has less wind drift than a 24" .308/175 SMK.

The .260 Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor with a 142gr SMK don't hit 1 mil of drift until 575yds, and still keep 1 mil at 600yds.

It is boring to shoot at plates that are over 1.5 MOA diameter with a .260 Rem or 6.5CM within 600yds, unless you get into awkward positions, the only way to make it challenging.

We're not even talking about the 6.5CM Hornady 147gr ELD-M factory load either, which has an insane high BC of .697 G1, .321 G7 for 600-1000yds if using drag model predictions.