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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:43:06 AM EDT
[#1]
That's hot. More details needed.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:44:57 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's hot. More details needed. The details are, the ATF says fake/engraved 3rd holes = machine gun. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:46:02 AM EDT
[#3]
they're just trying to stop the MAGA lowers from being made...
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:49:04 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's hot. More details needed. Looks closer. There's no pin, just an engraved ring. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:49:16 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The details are, the ATF says fake/engraved 3rd holes = machine gun. So... it's a pre-op trans-functional semi-automatic to automatic firearm? They might say that, but until they actually arrest you for it, I don't think they truly believe it. 
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:50:15 AM EDT
[#6]
I mean, would it be a machine gun if you did the exact same thing with a magic marker? If not, why not?
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:51:52 AM EDT
[#7]
What's the thought process on that?
"No one could possibly measure where to drill the hole unless it is marked already" 
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:53:07 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So... it's a pre-op trans-functional semi-automatic to automatic firearm? They might say that, but until they actually arrest you for it, I don't think they truly believe it. ATF has already confiscated a member's finished 80% lower from a well known anodizer's shop after agents who were there on an unrelated matter saw the engraving. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:53:57 AM EDT
[#9]
Hey
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:54:31 AM EDT
[#10]
Fuck all that shit, I am a machine gun!
 Showbread - I AM A MACHINE GUN |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:54:50 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ATF has already confiscated a member's finished 80% lower from a well known anodizer's shop after agents who were there on an unrelated matter saw the engraving. But I take it they didn't arrest anyone? Sue them for violating his civil rights. Fuck em. MAGA, right? Sounds like they just committed an ordinary run of the mill theft. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:55:19 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ATF has already confiscated a member's finished 80% lower from a well known anodizer's shop after agents who were there on an unrelated matter saw the engraving. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So... it's a pre-op trans-functional semi-automatic to automatic firearm? They might say that, but until they actually arrest you for it, I don't think they truly believe it. ATF has already confiscated a member's finished 80% lower from a well known anodizer's shop after agents who were there on an unrelated matter saw the engraving. Does not make it legal to make said confiscation. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:56:36 AM EDT
[#13]
WTF? I'd say I'm surprised, but I think I've figured out that the ATF will always think of something to keep me scratching my head...
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:58:07 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
WTF? I'd say I'm surprised, but I think I've figured out that the ATF will always think of something to keep me scratching my head... Fuck em. Federal civil rights lawsuits are needed. With jailtime for the individual agents who carried out said policy and the people who drafted and ordered said policy. And if this chills the willingness of people to apply for employment with the BATFE... so much the better. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:02:28 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The details are, the ATF says fake/engraved 3rd holes = machine gun. What? Are you fucking serious? |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:04:38 AM EDT
[#16]
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/708639_Heard-from-the-BATF-today-regarding-seized-Sear-pin-engraving.html
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:04:45 AM EDT
[#17]
That lower identifies as a machine gun. That is enough to change legal status these days.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:09:57 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What? Are you fucking serious? He is 100% serious, a bunch of us have been talking about it all evening in another section of the system. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:10:19 AM EDT
[#19]
Gotta do something to show those uppity subjects who's boss.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:18:24 AM EDT
[#20]
Wow unbelievable.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:18:45 AM EDT
[#21]
This has crossed my mind before.... 80% can't be pre marked out then how could this be gtg?
Other than the whole squeezes per thrust thing that defines a machine gun....but whatever. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:18:48 AM EDT
[#22]
I really, really, really want to see the letter they're having him sign.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:21:21 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does not make it legal to make said confiscation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So... it's a pre-op trans-functional semi-automatic to automatic firearm? They might say that, but until they actually arrest you for it, I don't think they truly believe it. ATF has already confiscated a member's finished 80% lower from a well known anodizer's shop after agents who were there on an unrelated matter saw the engraving. Does not make it legal to make said confiscation. Never claimed their actions were legal. Just passing along that they no joke hold this as an interpretation (haven't seen it written out on paper yet) and have taken actual enforcement action against those engraving faux sear holes (in the form of confiscating their property). |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:22:47 AM EDT
[#24]
Oh FFS.
Fuck the ATF. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:23:25 AM EDT
[#25]
I have been informed by the BATF today, that a determination has been made regarding the receiver(s) in question with the sear pin engraving.
It has been determined a Machine Gun although they have decided that there was no "intent" on our parts in creating one. I was told that no marking should be made in the area where the pin hole goes. I will be getting a letter from them shortly that I will sign, surrendering said receiver to the BATF for destruction. I did inquire why TROY is allowed to do this very same marking, but the agent didnt know, although he did say he'd try to find out. Im not in the mood to argue this, bash the BATF, nor hypothesize about why, just passing on the information as it was given. My suggestion: DON'T DO IT! Not worth the hassle. The statue defining a machine gun reads: (b)MachinegunThe term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. 26 U.S. Code § 5845 - Definitions For those of you who are unfamiliar with the Troy reference here is a review Tim at the Military Arms Channel did on one of their models which has an engraved sear pin hole. Take a look starting at approximately 5:50 ish. If ATF is allowed to get away with this then I would imagine this "process" will be used in the future to cull weapons out of the market one at a time.  Troy GAU-5/A/A rifle, a military classic reborn |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:23:57 AM EDT
[#26]
Yeah, well, this is why we have jury trials.
I wonder if this is the ATF trying to see what they can get away with, with the new boss. Common sense dictates that an engraving is not a fire control hole or any other sort of MG feature. The appropriate answer to this is a good solid "fuck off". |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:25:50 AM EDT
[#27]
@NoloContendere
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:28:32 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That lower identifies as a machine gun. That is enough to change legal status these days. An 80% lower IS NOT A FIREARM. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:32:29 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An 80% lower IS NOT A FIREARM. According to 37thguy ATF is arguing this one is a machine gun and a machine gun is most certainly a firearm under federal law. ATF has done this bullshit before when going after open bolt semi-automatics which at least kind-of-sort-of was based on a logical argument. To be quite honest I am shocked ATF has not done this more often with more firearms as the definition of a machine gun can be read to be really freaking broad. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:34:06 AM EDT
[#30]
The agent that tried to walk out of my shop with a customers firearm claiming THAT was illegal would have a bad day. The law regarding MGs is clear in how they function. That is firearm theft. Theft of a firearm is a felony, and I will treat you as such.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:34:11 AM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:37:04 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, well, this is why we have jury trials.
I wonder if this is the ATF trying to see what they can get away with, with the new boss. Common sense dictates that an engraving is not a fire control hole or any other sort of MG feature. The appropriate answer to this is a good solid "fuck off". ATF needs to be dealt with and they need to be dealt with harshly. Rumor is going around Trump is going to push hard to roll IRS into another agency. I hope the right people have his ear and compel him to act on ATF sooner rather than later. 
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:37:25 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That lower identifies as a machine gun. That is enough to change legal status these days. Not since last Friday. 
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:39:00 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@NoloContendere Yeah, if nothing else, he needs this if Watson goes forward for an example of derp. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:43:22 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An 80% lower IS NOT A FIREARM. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That lower identifies as a machine gun. That is enough to change legal status these days. An 80% lower IS NOT A FIREARM. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:49:02 AM EDT
[#36]
Fucking stupid
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:49:31 AM EDT
[#37]
Funny, these DOJ losers don't inforece illegal immigration, but they pick and choose to enforce gun laws. Fuck em, I don't care anymore.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:50:09 AM EDT
[#38]
fucking ATF.
I hope trump disbands those assholes. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:51:16 AM EDT
[#39]
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:51:42 AM EDT
[#40]
So what about the FN Military series rifles, are they all considered machine guns now? They have an engraved ring...
FATF! |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:52:28 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
fucking ATF. I hope trump disbands those assholes. Someone start the petition on the White House website, if we get enough signatures, Trump has to respond to it. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:54:08 AM EDT
[#42]
Someone needs to crash the Trump Train through the doors of the ATF office and reprioritize (fire), all of it.
what a damned waste of time. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 3:01:59 AM EDT
[#43]
Oh for fucks sake.
Sounds like some nitwit of a field agent knows a little about guns and started running amok with knowing the depth of his ignorance. FWIW, I've had to explain to a BATFE agent what a sear was and what it looked like during an inventory/inspection. Some of them can be just jaw-droppingly stupid. If I squint real hard and try to image what its like to have a lobotomy, I think BATFE's angle is that because its an 80% there is intent to complete it by using the engraved holes to complete the receiver - including the engraved sear hole. To them, I think 80% means you're going to do it yourself, and if there's a marking for a 3rd hole, they think you must be going to do that too. Because Troy's receiver is already complete, there is nothing for you to do, so you wouldn't be drilling that engraved hole. Its stupid and makes no sense, but thats my best guess at their inane logic. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 3:04:15 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know about you but I don't want to have to rely on my attorney explaining complicated idiosyncrasies of firearm technology and law to 12 people who probably don't know anything about firearms past what the government "experts" tell them to save my bacon. ATF needs to be dealt with and they need to be dealt with harshly. Rumor is going around Trump is going to push hard to roll IRS into another agency. I hope the right people have his ear and compel him to act on ATF sooner rather than later. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yeah, well, this is why we have jury trials.
I wonder if this is the ATF trying to see what they can get away with, with the new boss. Common sense dictates that an engraving is not a fire control hole or any other sort of MG feature. The appropriate answer to this is a good solid "fuck off". ATF needs to be dealt with and they need to be dealt with harshly. Rumor is going around Trump is going to push hard to roll IRS into another agency. I hope the right people have his ear and compel him to act on ATF sooner rather than later. And I don't know about you, but nobody is going to stick me into a cell because of an engraved circle. This is fucking ridiculous. I don't even own anything like this, but this is far over the line into tar and feathers territory. I've said this before, but the first answer to this is to start shunning people that do this nonsense. Treat them like lepers. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 3:19:56 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And I don't know about you, but nobody is going to stick me into a cell because of an engraved circle. This is fucking ridiculous. I don't even own anything like this, but this is far over the line into tar and feathers territory. I've said this before, but the first answer to this is to start shunning people that do this nonsense. Treat them like lepers. Those Lepers can ruin your life, and have a ton of power. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 3:20:58 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Depends on your definition of the moment of fabrication. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That lower identifies as a machine gun. That is enough to change legal status these days. An 80% lower IS NOT A FIREARM. Not true. If that were the case, then you're implying that I'm going to make that into a firearm. What if I was going to make it into a display piece to hang on my wall with other demilled parts? You cannot infer what my intent was at that time. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 3:30:51 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those Lepers can ruin your life, and have a ton of power. Only if you cede it to them. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 3:33:08 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's the thought process on that? "No one could possibly measure where to drill the hole unless it is marked already" It's worse I'm pretty sure most of the engraved pins aren't even in the correct location |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 3:35:46 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not true. If that were the case, then you're implying that I'm going to make that into a firearm. What if I was going to make it into a display piece to hang on my wall with other demilled parts? You cannot infer what my intent was at that time. That is the problem with the BATF, it is not you that gets to determine intent, it is them that gets to determine intent, which is why they need to be reigned back in, they have far to much power and can do what ever the hell they want. Like I said in the other thread, once they determine your intent, it is like being falsely accused of rape, don't matter that you are innocent it still can ruin your life! With Trump Jr. being such a strong supporter of guns, hopefully enough of us can send letters and emails to catch his attention and get his rear on this issue, we all ready know he has the Presidents ear, he is a very strong supporter of the HPA. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 3:38:21 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's worse I'm pretty sure most of the engraved pins aren't even in the correct location None of the companies I am familiar with engrave them in the correct position, it is just for looks. |
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