After reading all of the posts in "Line in the sand" it seems a lot of us are intent on a 2nd American revolution. My question is do we need a revolution or just a restoration? Do we want to change what the original constitution says, or just "restore it" to it's original form? It would be a lot easier to gather support for a "Restoration" rather than a revolution. It just sounds less extreme. What do you think? What would you change about the original constitution?

Excellent point.  The only change that needs to be made to the constitution is a clause that doesn't allow any changing of or inhibiting of the rights outlined in the Constitution as well as a statement that states may not make laws that detract from any part of the Constitution.  I know that this is how it is intended, but the wording of this should be such that it is clear enough for those stupid heads-up-their-asses liberals that there is no way for them to screw with it.

Every one of the militias I have heard of state that they want the restoration of a Constitutional Republc from the democracy perversion the country has become. They do not want to overthrow the government like the liars from the adl and splc say in their fundraiser letters.

All any of us want is a restoration to the original values on which this country was founded.  I hope it does not take a full revolution to attian, but it has almost gone too far to restore within the system.  I hope I am wrong.

 Revolution or Restoration?  I like to think that the Revolution is a second option, in the even that support for the restoration is gained, but we are unable to carry it out and restore the government to its former utility.  I think pulling it back to pre-1934 status (pre-Depression would be even better) and getting the value of the people back in line would not be too far to go.

FFZ

History, is the best lesson!
Being that, freedom has never been free, it takes blood and guts to gain it, and to retain it! So, how could one or many in this case, restore the constitution without blood shed? Such an undertaking has never seen the light of day throughout all of the worlds recorded history, because of human nature, to believe it can be done, is to believe in fairy tales!

The rogue officials in the current form of government, use sedition, conspiracy, seditious conspiracy, along with public funds to deny the power of the constitution of the United States of America, and of the several states. A cartel known as the BAR controls justice. The LEO types have become an un-authorized standing army, and the militia is now the enemy of the state, what should we do?

THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE! This is why the weapons bans, restrictions, and the use of state sponsored domestic terrorism by these now rogue government officials to demonize the militia and those who expound upon traditional American values and ideals as terrorist, or potential terrorist to their form of government!

Is it clear, or need I say more?

Careful guys....shady territory here.

Restoration is key but discussion on such a subject via the government built W3 is not such a good idea.

You must know who you are dealing with and no others period, as they say the FEDs have planted people everywhere.

I believe that ultimately history will repeat and we WILL be [I]Involved[/I], but how and when will happen when it happens and we will all know it.

Unfortunately the FEDs are currently targeting.....look at who is here daily.

[-!-]FED

[rail]Railgun....

Restoration!

But I fear that it will take a revolution to accomplish it for the simple fact that our system is so corrupted.  We have (had) the best system in the history of the world, if we could just keep it intact.  

Like Imbroglio says, every militia member that I have talked to wants a restoration.  



There are an estimated 80 million gun owners in the US today out of approximately 270 million citizens.  That's about 30%.  Of course not all are for a 2nd revolution.  How many of the original 3 million colonial gun owners were actually for independence from England?  Probably about the same percentage as for restoration today.  The difference is they were not as complacent about their freedoms.  

Surely, it costs nothing to dream, so dream on!

Peacefu restoration sounds nice but it sounds like a pipe dream to me. The people and instituitions in power have to much to lose to just go along peacefully any sort of major change. The've already made it clear they will defame, imprison, and kill people, inluding women and children, that disagree with them.
I'm not saying that the idea of a revelution is something that should be glamorized. A revelution would not be fun. Possibly seeing freinds and family get shot, blown to peices, starving, being imprisoned and tortured, these aren't a pretty picture. But these are things that our founding fathers had to deal with when they felt the situation had gotten bad enough to risk it. All in the name of freedom.
Has the situation gotten that bad yet? I don't know. It seems it's getting there quick.

After you revolt, do you think the Japanese and other foreign investors will keep their money here. I might be wrong, but I think they are the ones paying our bills by buying our bonds. Their is only one way to fight the antigun establishment, MONEY. Thank goodness our congress rats can be bought like a cheap suit. The NRA is the only realistic hope there is to saving the 2nd amendment. I gave $200 dollars to the NRA last year and I feel good about it.
"Stop The Dreaming and Start the Screaming" how many write their congress mans and worse yet how many take time to vote.

I vote in every election - that is what I fought for.

I write my CongressCritters - that is why they are there.  Sometimes, I even get intelligent replies.  This causes me to continue writing, offering my viewpoint is as rational and intelligent a manner as possible.  While it is true that DiFi still suffers from a terminal case of HICS, I keep trying.  If she carried once, maybe there is still a glimmer of hope yet...

Meanwhile, I look for opportunities to talk to more people and convince THEM why a restoration is necessary.  

I almost believe that it is too late for a restoration, but it remains a possiblility.  I also prepare for revolution.

As a veteran of our Armed Forces and a veteran of Armed Combat, I know that I am ready.  There are a small group of people that I trust - and I work to help them form themselves into my own image.  I share with them what I know - ALWAYS stopping short of anything that could be called "sedition," "Treason," or "Fomenting a Revolution."  I know where the lines are, and I know how Federal LE works.

Is Restoration a possibility?  I hope so.

Is Revolution a possibility?  I hope not.  I won't say it isn't, and I know that I have the fortitutde and the resolve to see it out, if necessary.

FFZ

restoration would be preferable, however as mentioned earlier, i do not believe this is possable without a full blown revolution. we have let them get too far, ever herd the expression "give em an inch and they take a mile."? i am preparing but also hopeing that my preparation is in vein. i really do hope that i just end up with a really expensive summer camp.

I think the historical view is an eventual revolution, probably 300 years or so from now by people with almost no rights left(not just gun rights).  History shows us this cycle of democracies eventually becoming facist or communist states.  Then eventually revolutions break out and another weaker dictatorship is installed.  Eventually a democratic revolution takes place to begin the cycle again.

A Restoration seems passive, whereas a Revolution is active.  In the past 20 years, the gun owners have fought to regain ground that has been lost.  In the Federal arena, every time they have tried, they have lost.  Some gains have been made, or so we think, in the individual states, in the form of CCW permits, and so forth, but as Imbrig|io so aptly puts it, if it's a right, why do we need a permit?

The attempts to restore our country have failed again and again.  And there will come a time when we all stand our grounds, together, and say "this is it", and we refuse to budge.  The regret I have in my heart is that we will not stand in the same spot, in the same manner, and resist as one large group.

Now, however, if you are asking if the goal of the Revolution is to restore this country, and it's laws, including the Constitution back to it's original state, then by all means.  As far as the Constitution, I personally would reword the 2nd Amendment only slightly.  The new wording as follows, to prevent further confusion:

[b]The right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be restricted, nor infringed.[/b>

In the movie Gladiator, Maximus had but one goal, to return the power to the people, to escape the corruption of the original form of government.  Our hopes should be that this same goal is attempted, and accomplished.  Not a perversion of our current government, but a return of our government to the republican and liberatarian (small R, small L) ideals that we were founded upon.

Restoration is a great idea. Unfortunately, it is unlikely through the political process given the large number of people who depend on the government to give them our money. If you eliminated government entitlement programs most of the social problems in this country would be gradually resolved.

Prediction: We will never see any of our gun rights "restored". The future is no guns, we can just delay, we cannot stop it.
As goverment becomes more and more powerful, individuals lose rights.
The only way to reduce the power of goverment is for the goverment to fall.

John Ross had the only workable solution that I've seen.  Recommended reading.

All other attempts and efforts, grassroots and all are doomed to fail, imo.

Jarhead:
You are kidding, right? "Eliminate the entitlement programs and most of the social problems would be resolved". How would THAT happen? Any of you remember WHY those programs came into being? Masses of unemployed  and displaced people, shanty towns, etc....the past was not a rosy place..the social safety net was put in place because the private sector couldn't do the job.
 As for the rest of you, I suspect that you wouldn't get the nirvana you seem to think would happen.
When it gets right down to it, I suspect that many folks who object to the Feds do so because they want to feel free to exercise their own brand of racism, prejudices, etc that were practiced right up until the 1950's in many states, until the Federal Gov't intervened.
Sure, the system has problems. Having a Revolution or "restoration" is not the way to go, folks. Thats nothing more than a thinly veiled reference to mob action.

Now I'm not one to preach violence of any sort when good old fashioned voting and lobbying will do the trick.  Restoration is most certainly better than any kind of revolution, if it can be accomplished.

But if trouble is to come, then let it come in my lifetime in order that my grandchildren may live in peace and undisturbed.

Pardom me, but the assertion that WE couldn't possibly win such an encounter [b]simply[/b] because WE don't have the sophisticated military equipment that THEY have is unsupported by history.  Superior numbers and firepower are factors that must be considered, but are not always conclusive.

Just ask any American military advisor that's presently stationed in the Republic of South Vietnam.

Wait, there [b]aren't[/b] any American military advisors present in what used to be known as the Republic of South Vietnam.  You know why?

'Cause the American public with the aid of the liberal mainstream media came to the conclusion that 'the game wasn't worth the candle.'

See what purposeful persistence can accomplish.

When the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team (quick, who were the 'hostages'?) was all hunkered down at Mt. Carmel, near Wacko, Texas, how many more such situations could they have handled in other parts of the country at the same time?

General Janet 'the Torch' Reno gave as one of her reasons for approving the reckless CS gas insertion into the Mt. Carmel church building,  the 'degradation in readiness' of the HRT unit.  They'd only been there a couple of weeks.  What if they had been in the field for months?

It's not what we want, it's not what we desire, but 'when in the course of human events' it may be what we face.

Eric The(Saddened)Hun    

Who invited the communist to this party? [:)]

Any human being with more than two operational brain cell would prefer peaceful restoration to armed revolt!!  If oyu have never been downrange when the lead starts flying, let me tell you that it will definitly be the most intense experience of your entire life.......... I'm convinced that the current mob in power will not voluntarily relinquish power without the application of force.  R2 will create 'bandenkreig' as in Germany in the aftermath of the Thirty Years' War.........  What to do?  Prepare.  Train.  Communicate.  BTW, my e-mail is NOW on my profile (sorry guys)  Whatever come out of the other end will be (hopefully) more libertarian, more republican, and more Christian (big C) than what we have now.  I do not advocate overthrow of our existing gov't, just expressing and opinion.........

If what you say is true, why do we have any freedom left at all at this point? If the 80 million gun owners were not a serious force to be reckoned with, a move against free elections would have come a long time ago.

You must not have any grandchildren yet, or children for that matter, right?  Otherwise you would have thought that one through. If this pipe dream of a "revolution" ever came about, do you think the neo-revolutionary wanna-bees on this thread would, along with a hundred other factioned "malitias", really "restore" the constitution?  And then what, they would rule?  And then [i]they[/i] would construe the constitution to fit pragmatic, every day living?  Suuuuure they would.

Just a miniscule example:  1st amendment says nothing about child porn.  Should that be illegal?  The 2nd says nothing about gang-bangers with felony records being prohibited from the RKBA.  Should that be constitutional?  

And what other neat little laws do you think these guys would enact [i]sui sponte[/i] to replace the sh*tty ones we have to deal with presently?  

Thanx, but I'll take my chances the old fashion way- through legal, constitutional means.


Is revolution possible?  It's always possible given the right circumstances, but not right now.  I keep hearing the same "battle cries" from the same revolutionary wannabees- Ruby Ridge and Waco.  Illegal, murderous and un-American?  Yes.  Endemic?  No.  These, whether you guys like it or not, are anomolies.  I don't care how ideal a government is, these types of travesties are going to occur- especially in an unstable, fractioned, "revolutionary" restoration government.  Ruby Ridge was dealt with through legal means and the FBI paid for it, in many ways.  No, it won't restore the Weaver family, nothing will.  But at least the bastards that did it did not fully get away with it.  Jury is still out in Waco, but I don't believe the ATF "got away" with that either.  At any rate, these things, along with the current political climate against gun rights, are not even close to being the preamble to revolution- except for the dellusional few who continue to post this  cypber-bravado, neo-revolutionary wannabe garbage.

Peaceful restoration of course....BUT I sure wouldn't mind kicking a little ass, if necessary, to get there.  " If I would go to Vietnam to give my life for another man's freedom, would I not defend my own?" LT

Peaceful restoration of course....BUT I sure wouldn't mind kicking a little ass, if necessary, to get there.  " If I would go to Vietnam to give my life for another man's freedom, would I not defend my own?" LT

Our system of checks and balances really has nothing to do with a soldier following orders or not.  

Yes, soldiers are sworn to uphold the Constitution.  But last I heard they are NOT sworn to uphold an unconstitutional order.  




Why would military support be necessary?  I would guess that the number of Patriots who would like to restore our system greatly outnumbers our military.  Who cares if any other country in the world would support a Rebel force.  You have to keep in mind that there are WAY more poeple living in America now than Colonial times.

As for the technical advantage of our military over a force of Restorationists, that really doesn't hold up.  What's to stop some of that technology from falling into our hands by force or by military sympathethizers?  Either way, it is available.

If you believe that we have checks and balances beyond the 400 million guns in the hands of private citizens then (and I hate to be so blunt among friends) you're way too naive.

chacks and ballances dont work when all are corrupted.

and as a soldier i have been told by every one of my ds's that i am lawfull to not follow an unconstitutional order, same goes for orders that violate the ucmj.

granted we as a group are factioned, but that would make us an ideal governing body.
that we all want freedome we may all gain an understanding and meet at a middle ground whare we can all agree on other issues. s.a. abortion, porn, what is a acceptable military, all these have acceptable middle grounds that must be found and agreed apon if there is to be a peace.

DBrewer,  You speak so harshly about us.  Yes, I have never been to war.  No, never had my life in jeporady.  But I am no coward.  We may talk highly of our skills when we are unskillful but the thought of us being powerful makes us powerful.  Who's to say the whole ENTIRE military force would come up against us?  No deserters?  And even if we did lose, it doesn't matter.  Socialism always fails.  Someone someday will start a successful one.  Death wins every battle, but life wins the war.  We can be men now, die, maybe in vain, but death is alot better than watching your brothers and sisters be called "Terrorists" on the 6'oclock news.  Feeling comfy in your chair.  Surrender you guns now, avoid the embarassment of confiscation.  And because we have no sense of war and how it goes, why don't you lead?  Afraid?  I'm sure we all are.  There are no athiest in foxholes, remember?  There are worse things than death.  One day, maybe I will look back at his, when a peaceful restoration did take place and breathe a sigh of relief I didn't have to take up arms.  But maybe one day I'll be bleeding to death from a shrapnel wound and smiling that at least I did what I could.  no flames please.

NSF    

tcsd1236, you are a socialist. You may not realize it, maybe you do. I'm not expecting nirvana but the current socialist system in place gives the government excessive power over us due to redistribution of wealth. An ever increasing number of americans are coming under government entitlement programs. This makes them dependent on the government, who has power to take money from those of us earning it.The more dependent people become the more they can be coerced and dictated to by the gov. The government already has considerable power over how our children are raised, taught, fed, medicated. This control increases substantially for families on AFDC, Medical Assistance, etc. That is something I see regularly. Most of these people would be better off if they were forced to survive on their own. We have created two generations of chronic dependants whom at this point know little else. And guess who and what they are going to vote for. They will do anything to ensure that their money(our money-at least mine, I'm no longer so sure about yours)supply is not cut off. The same goes for social security beneficiaries.
 As for the depression, you can bet that there will periodic crises, economic and otherwise, and that for the most part we will all survive them. I don't need the government for survival and I really doubt that any of us do.

I am assuming that this comment is directed at me for my "naive" comment.

I don't advocate anything but peaceful restoration of our constitutional republic. I have no dilussions of anything.

The only point I tried to make on this thread is that our firearms are the ONLY thing insuring some semblance of freedom in this country. Without them, we would have been completely overrun by socialism by now. Even with the firearms, we are close to being a socialist totalitarian state as we can possibly get and still have free elections.

I work tirelessly to win the battle at the ballot box. I help organize and attend as many pro constitution rallies that I can handle and still make a living and raise a kid. There have been periods of 6 months and more where I have survived on three to five hours sleep a day to accomplish this. The last week leading up to the Second Amendment Sisters counter march in DC last year, saw me at my computer for 18 hours a day fielding info and press requests for the ladies while they were in DC doing what they had to do.

This weekend I'm at a rally in Hartford, next weekend another one, a month ago I had to keep my kid out of school for a day and drag her with me to Hartford so I could make it to a hearing in where we managed to kill a new AW ban bill in committee.

In 2002 election, I plan to oppose my republican state rep as a Libertarian candidate.

I write pro constitutional articles for the local paper. I try to infect young people around here with the disease of freedom all day long. I don't know what else I can do to win this in a peaceful manner. If you have some ideas, I'd be glad to listen.

But the main point is that without our guns, the fight is lost before it begins. We have to win the fight to preserve the 2nd, if we ever have a chance of fixing what ails this old republic.

There are a lot of very interesting points here. I think some have carried this too far. It doesn't matter at this point about air support, or mechanized anything. What matters is that we all realize that there is a problem. By all means we should try and work this thing out peacefully. And if we cannot then people have away of figuring out how to fight, regaurdless of formal training. I am not worried about anyones ability to defend our country.


Now, what about a media war? Right now you have tons of liberal garbage on because that is what "someone" thinks the american people want. Take for instance all of the reality shows, bootcamp, survivor, etc. They are REWARDING people for deceit and trechery(sp?) Why not reward people for being honorable and loyal? Is this what you want people to beleive is o.k.? Don't think people believe what they see on t.v.? Then why do companies spend millions of dollars on advertising. If a network wants to make lets say a shoe popular, then all they have to do is show a few celebs wearing it, make a big deal out of it, and stores won't be able to keep the shelves full the next day. If we could get ahold of some airtime and start braodcasting our own form of "propaganda" then it would be much easier for us to accomplish our goals. Start broadcasting pro-american commercials, nothing extreme just good old fashioned God bless the USA type stuff. Make it "cool" to be a patriot again. Pretty soon the whole country would be on board our "Patriotic Band Wagon" and politicians love to make people happy..... I know it's a dream but......

If 50 million patriots contributed just $10 each, we could own a major network.

Critter, now thats not a bad idea, we don't neccesarily have to own a network,(wouldn't hurt) but buying some airtime would be super cool.

Steve in VA -



It's getting real tiresome to hear from some folks (you, for instance) who think the only way being discussed here to deal with our problem is through some sort of Revolution.  Read all the posts, man!  Not many here are advocating anything but 'legal constitutional means' of dealing with the problems that are being addressed.    

For most the very idea of a Revolution is only as a last resort.

But when our government is attempting to undermine personal freedom by illegal and unconstitutional means, then we must oppose the measures by which the attempt is being made.

In California, specifically, what percentage of owners of so-called assault rifles have actually registered their weapons? I think that we can count on the patriots out there to have circumvented the law, by hook or crook.

There is only one problem that I deem to be of such importance as to 'draw a line in the sand' over and that is private gun ownership and possession.

I had a professor in law school who informed us that the Second Amendment could be satisfied by simply permitting the citizenry to store their arms in the local National Guard Armory. What an idiot, [b]don't you agree?[/b]

Once the citizenry are disarmed, do you for one minute think that it would be the end of gov't intrusion into our lives.

So much for your writs, petitions, and briefs in support thereof, when you are in a situation roughly equivalent to a British subject living in Colonial America.

An attorney friend, who is a retired FBI agent, back when Congress was debating the Assault Rifle Ban, tried to cheer me up concerning the likely outcome:

'Eric, Eric, you're an attorney, you will [b]always[/b] be able to have an assault rifle or whatever you want.'

Sad, but true. The laws aren't being made for the elite, they are made for the [i]hoi polloi[/i], the great unwashed masses, the people without a clue, the plebians.

And, no, neither the FBI or the ATF ever really paid any kind of price for Ruby Ridge or Waco.
Larry Potts, the FBI SAC at Ruby Ridge, was made Assistant Director after the debacle. The two ATF agents responsible for the Waco fiasco were dismissed and then reinstated with back pay.

And, Sir, in the event that another Constitution needs to be written at the end of another Revolution, I just want to make this suggestion, as a simple country lawyer:

[size=4] Keep the F***ing Lawyers Away From It![/size=4][:D]

Oh, and another thing -



Thank you for being so interested in my family. I have a lovely daughter and beautiful little granddaughter, who just turned 4 last Saturday.

Eric The(Legal & Constitutional)Hun

 

You got right! I am all for capitalism, but the shysters in this country have twisted that into making money at the price OTHER people's freedoms, like the gun manufacturers lawsuits.

The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.
--Tacitus (A.D. 55?-130?)

RESTORATION!

Communist? Socialist? Hardly. But I have no doubt about where your pipe dreams about tossing out the social safety net would get us.
Troy: I know quite well the causes of the Depression. I wasn't debating the causes of the Depression. My point was that that there were no social programs at that time, and those people who seem to think that eliminating social programs would bring some "rightness" to peoples lives, and that everything would be glorious and wonderful, are simply crazy.
No one is advocating totalitarianism...I don't know where that came into the discussion.

I for one am pretty hopeful that we are in the process of a restoration right now.  In the last twenty years, we have gone from democratic control of all three branches of the federal government to republican control of all 3.  True, not all republicans are "conservative," but most are.  We are getting a bigger tax cut than Bush ran on, social secutity privatization is likely, and the welfare state has been dealt some pretty big blows since the republicans took control of congress.  There have also been some sensible things done lately about environmental, international and energy issues.

And no gun control, or even serious talk about it.

It is not time to get complacent, but things seemt to be going our way.  Patience, I think, is called for.  It is going to take more than a couple years to rip down this edifice that the socialists have been creating for the past 70-90 years.

War is undoubtedly more awful than any of us realize, and if we can accomplish our ends by peaceful means, even if it takes a little time, we should do so.  And if it does not go our way in the long run, that should be when all this "cold dead hands" business should come into play.  IMHO.

Ladies and Gentlemen:

You can lead people to freedom, but you cannot [b]make[/b] them free.  They have to want it.  They have to work for it.  It isn't easy and it isn't [i]free[/i].  The cost is blood, toil, tears and sweat.  

Our forefathers paid, in spades.  We collected on their investment and built the most free, most powerful nation in the history of Man.  And we got lazy and greedy.  Now we are giving up our freedoms because we aren't willing to work for them.

Revolution?  Restoration?  Unless and until you can get enough of the population willing to work for freedom, you won't see either one.  Perhaps 5 million people in this nation understand and care about the system of government we're [i]supposed[/i] to be living under.  With a population of 280 million, that's not enough.  Not by a long shot.

Face it, people:  The problem we have is ignorance and apathy and greed (wanting something for nothing, [i]not[/i] being willing to work for it).  Fix that, and the nation will fix itself, because its people will understand what it is they are giving away in the name of "safety" and "security".

[sniper]

Originally posted by tcsd1236 -



Or even into the 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and even into the 2000s in many more states, if you count the desegregation ordeals in Michigan, New York, Massachusetts (think - South Boston), and simliar acts of racism as exhibited in New York in the Abner Louima case, the Ahmed Diallo case and others.

I think the brothers in New York got Amnesty International on speed dial![BD]

Eric The(Equal Opportunity)Hun

Ideally we would like a peaceful restoration...

It may require a revolution to achieve a restoration....

What about civil disobedience...?  Just a thought...

[sniper]
The Sniper