West German newsreel (RealMedia) [url]http://www.dhm.de/lemo/objekte/video/JahreDesAufbausInOstUndWest_video17Juni1953/index.ram[/url]

In 1949, the Soviet Union established the German Democratic Republic (East Germany) and enforced tyrannical laws to “bolshevize” the German population. In 1953, the German people’s outrage against the Soviet policy reached the boiling point. The tyranny of being "Sovietized" became unbearable. On June 17, 1953, thousands of employees from the steel mills in Henningsdorf and construction workers from the people owned cooperative construction company (VEB-Bauunion-Stalinallee) in Berlin joined to march in protest against the inhumanitarian treatment and living conditions that Soviet rule inflicted against German citizens.

[img]http://www.hdg.de/Final/images/pic1741-0.jpg[/img]
Map showing the cities and towns where there have been riots.

The protestors marched to the Brandenburg Gate, the Leipziger Strasse (Government Quarters) and the Potsdamer Square.  One of the most notable events of this uprising was when Horst Ballentin ripped down the Soviet flag from the Brandenburg Gate. It is no coincidence that when the Berlin Wall finally fell on November 9th, 1989, the focal point of that event was the Brandenburg Gate.

Under the command of Soviet General Dibrowa, two tank divisions and a motorized infantry division of the Red Army were dispatched to quell the protestors.

[img]http://www.chronik-berlin.de/images/photos/17-6-53.jpg[/img]

The confrontation of Soviet forces and the protestors resulted in the deaths of more than 250 protestors.  Demonstrations quickly spread to many other parts of East Germany including 44 cities, 22 county seats and 6 district towns. The demonstrations quickly got of control in many of these cities. The protestors lynched more than 20 Communist officials, Stasi-henchmen and People’s police, prisons were stormed and political prisoners were released. The killing of Communist officials angered Moscow as well as the East German Ulbricht-Regime and the confrontation became even bloodier. In the city of Magdeburg-Neustadt, Soviet soldiers from the 73rd Rifle Regiment were brought from their summer camp at Biederitz to quell the rioting. Soviet soldiers were under orders to shoot to kill, some however disobeyed.

[img]http://home.datacomm.ch/rzehnder/1953/images/aufstand.jpg[/img]
Protestors carrying a banner demanding free elections.

[img]http://home.datacomm.ch/rzehnder/1953/images/pic3.jpg[/img]
In order to quell the protests, Moscow declared Martial Law in all of East Germany.

As a result of the protests, more than 20,000 German citizens were imprisoned in penitentiaries and Soviet gulags, 3 German citizens were beheaded and many German citizens were simply executed via firing squad, including 3 members of the People’s Police.

[img]http://www.lycee-international.com/allemand/50jahre/JUNI.JPG[/img]
Stones against tanks

The June 17th, 1953 uprising in the Soviet occupied territory of East Germany was the first significant uprising in the communist empire, an empire that was established with the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution and an empire that covered 13 time zones from Vladivostock to the Fulda Gap. The East German uprising of 1953 inspired other Soviet bloc countries to protest Soviet occupation and tyrannical rule.  However, the Soviet armed forces were very quick to quell failed revolts that occurred in Hungary, Poznan, Czechoslovakia and Poland. It was not until November 9th, 1989, with the collapse of the Berlin Wall that tyrannical Soviet rule was finally stopped in its tracks. The central point for the collapse of the Berlin Wall was at the Brandenburg Gate at the same place where on June 17, 1953, Horst Ballentin, ripped down the Soviet Flag.      

June 17, 1953 in numbers:

centers of riots: about 400
protestors: about 500,000
martial law: 167 of the 217 counties of E. Germany
killed protestors and innocent by-standers: between 51 and 200
killed E.German police and state security: 6
Germans shot after being courtmartialled by Soviets: between 18 and 21, 3 of them E.German police
court-martialled and shot for insubordination Soviet troops: 41
executed after trial: 3

Thanks to Soviet tanks, and the construction of the Berlin Wall and border fortifications at the demarcation line in 1961, the East German regime survived for another 36 years, until 1989, when the Soviet Union was distracted by her own troubles, again mass protests swept the country.

[img]http://web.uvic.ca/geru/261/003.jpg[/img]

Wow, I've never heard about this. Hungary, Czechoslovakia, but never this.  Thanks.

And thanks to the good old USA.....Germany is once again whole.
GOD BLESS AMERICA !!!!

Got /that/ right.

A simple "thank you" will suffice.
[marines]
Although, there are times I wish we had just let the Russians have the whole damn place, but not all Germans are ingrates.

You know what kar98?  If the fucking Germans had shut the fuck up and lived with the outcome of the WWI, they wouldn't have had their asses kicked again in WWII.  You fucking idiots attacked the Soviet Union, just what did you expect to have happen to you in return?

Like I've said before, if this country doesn't suit your fancey, you are free to leave at anytime.

Seriously, man. First, in 1945, American troops withdraw from 2/3rds of East Germany and hand it to the Russians.
In 1953, American troops don't do diddly-squat to support the anti-Soviet uprising.
In 1961, nothing is done against the erection of the Berlin Wall.
A couple of Presidents (Kennedy and Reagan) show up and utter hollow phrases.
In 1989, Soviet Russia decides having East Germany is not really worth the trouble dealing with Germans and cuts off support for the East German government, which topples as a result of peaceful protests and thousands fleeing the country.
Where exactly do you figure the U.S. fits in here? Not that I'm saying anything /should/ have been done, one way or other, but where exactly do you see that I should be grateful?

I didn't do anything of the sort. And don't call me a fucking idiot. Am I to take this as personal insult, or as a racist remark?



Funny how I've heard the very phrase back in commie East Germany "If you don't like our paradise, feel free to leave."
Keep your moronic remarks to yourself. And it's spelled "fancy", you fucking idiot.

Ya know Kar, you never answered a very important question.
Where do your loyalties lie ??  with Germany or America ??
Are you even a U.S. citizen ?
I'll bet you dodge the issue as always.

Nor did we do anything for the insurgents in Hungary in 1956, either.....




In the case of Reagan, at least he was willing to back up his words with an unprecedented military build-up that finally crushed the Soviet Union, just on the latter's inability to pay for their own continued build-up- they went broke, utterly stone broke, so it became worth it for Gorbachev to say: you want the Wall down? OK- we say "uncle."

As for Kennedy, the more I read about him, the less I respect him. A triumph of style over substance, whose main claim to fame is that he died young and tragically, and left a good-looking corpse. He wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed either- I still remember his ungrammatical "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech, (he should have said : "Ich bin Berliner" to mean "I am from Berlin") which all the neighbors in Germany were going gaga over, crying their eyes out, when it hit me, and I said, as a kid, to everybody present: President Kennedy just told Germany that he's a jelly doughnut([i]Berliner[/i])...[rolleyes]





I was so stunned when that happened- it seemed like the Cold War would last forever, that Communism and Capitalism would be locked in this death grip for eternity- then- it all vanished, like sugar in a fire! Esp. East Germany, the showpiece and bulwark of Marxism-Leninism....it was like a permanent concentration camp, ringed with minefields, machine guns, and barbed wire....while it existed, it seemed like it would always be there. When it was gone, the guard towers on the old borders (now inside reunited Germany) looked like monuments to a dead, forsaken religion. I still can't get over how things have changed.



In the 1950s and 1960s, Ike and the later US leaders did not want any kid of direct military confrontation with the USSR since it woudl most likely lead to nuclear annihilation. Better to let the Germans twist slowly in the wind, than risk total destruction of America, was the thought.

I can't say where the US should fit in in E. Germany's case, but they did serve as a beacon of hope and a model, however flawed, for the Poles, Rumanians and Czechs, at the very least, and they have not forgot us in our hours of need, esp. in Iraq. That must count for something. Present day Germany is too wrapped up in itself and its internal problems, as well as European integration, to care seriously about the US any more- we are two very different cultures, and always have been, except for a brief period of comradeship after WW2.

Great post, BTW, Kar98- I knew people who lived the the Volksaufstand des 17. Juni- they seemed to think that a lot more people were killed and imprisoned, though.

Well, man, like I said, we could have just let the Russians have the whole place and said fuck it. I'll bet you would still be there making cheap shoes or injecting steroids into your women.
Maybe we could have just stepped in on the several occasions you mentioned and started WWIII and let Germany get nuked first.
You know what, the simple fact that you think America did nothing in keeping the Russians from completely destroying your great nation tells more about you than anything else.
Your homeland is calling you....please answer and get the fuck out of AMERICA !!
BTW, it was YOU...the Germans who brought all this on YOURSELVES.
So pound salt buddy.

IBTL! [banana]

If the shoe fits, wear it.



Thank you for correcting my spelling mistake.  However, there is a big difference between the phrase when it was spoken in communist country and when it it is spoken here in the USA.

You would get a lot better mileage if you would accept the fact that no country on earth is or was more responsible for the plight of the Germans then Germany herself.  Your feeble attempts to hang your feelings of inadequacy on the outcome of WWII is pathetic.

Over the protests of Churchill, our own pie-in-the-sky Democratic president FDR and his la-la naive advisers basically gave 1/2 of Europe to the Soviets, partly out of guilt for the fact that so many Soviets had died at the hands of the Nazis, and also believed that Uncle Joe Stalin had mended his ways, and would not make captured territories Communist (yeah, right [rolleyes]). Boy, were they wrong. But half a loaf was better than nothing- had the Soviets got all of Germany, then they would have snapped up France, Scandinavia, the UK and the Iberian Peninsula and the Mediterranean countries in short order.

Sometimes life gives us several choices at once, some of which are better than others, but all are far from ideal.

German war guilt is unquestioned- but we all in the West could have done something about Nazi Germany in the 1930s- but chose not to, until it was too late.

What the FUCK are you even babbling about? Drugs are bad for you, mmm-kay? Are you ever going to post anything that makes the slightest bit of sense, or is at least somewhat on-topic?
Btw, using the plural of attempt, i.e. "attempts", commands the use of "are" instead of "is".

[rolleyes]

And here, after reading your great opening post I thought you appreciated and understood the "big picture" of recent world history regarding the US & USSR and the American role in toppling the Soviet puppetmasters of the DDR. [V]


[i]{coughReykjavikcough}[/i]

Maybe you would have been happier if we got into a nuclear war with the USSR?  Cause that's what would have happened if we had acted to support those revolts.

"Reykjavik". See? That's the proper way to back an argument. By citing facts, not by screaming non-sense. Thank you, The_Macallan, I appreciate this.

For the uninformed:
[i]The Reykjavik summit made two things clear, according to Dr. Sigler. First, President Reagan, as a result of both domestic political concerns and uninformed advisors, came to the summit largely unprepared. Second, the Soviet Union, after years of being plagued by succession problems, has re-emerged as a formidable contender. When Gorbachev confronted Reagan with a series of bold proposals, the President, acting mainly on his own initiative, responded with unusual receptiveness.

At Reykjavik, tentative agreements were reached on a 50% reduction in ICBM's within a five year period and on the elimination of SS-21's and Pershing 11 missiles. During the discussions, Reagan proposed eliminating all ballistic missiles in the next five year period. Gorbachev reciprocated by extending Reagan's suggestion to include all strategic weapons
[/i]

For graduates of the public school system:
Our head-honcho and their head honcho were discussing nuclear disarmement back in 1986.

As for the danger of nuclear war should NATO have tried to interfere back then (and I'm not saying NATO should have, I'm merely saying that NATO didn't): That danger was indeed given, but didn't prevent Russia from puppetering the Korean War, nor did it stop the US from meddling about in Viet Nam. Nor did it stop the US from running Project Homerun (On May 6, 1956, six armed RB-47E aircraft, flying abreast, crossed the North Pole and penetrated Russian airspace in broad daylight, as if on a nuclear bombing run.) Or Russia from trying to install nukes on Cuba.

But I digress. The purpose of this thread was to show that a, no matter how over-whelming the opposing force, there will always be men brave enough to stand up against oppression, and b, that oppressive governments do not hesitate to use tanks against their own civilians. That this thread also showed c, there's always a screaming nitwit or two, was an unintended consequence, but those hysterical housewives can be tolerated, because there are also enough people with whom one can conduct a civil discussion. Thanks Macallan, raven, 95thFoot.

Kar98, your comments kind of irritate me.  Let me explain.  You said:



What irritates me first and foremost is that if I rememeber correctly, you have been a strident skeptic about the American agenda regarding the war on Iraq.  Deep skepticism that it was primarily about oil than, say, the liberation of the Iraqi people or an audactious push to reform the political landscape of the middle east (what I personally believe).

We are doing for the Iraqis what you wished for your own people, aren't we?  Consider for a moment that oil is NOT the reason we invaded Iraq.

Kar98, if we could have freed East Germany without 50 Soviet division at the Fulda gap and dozens of Soviet bombers armed with A-bombs, we would have been there for you.  Please dont resent US. The people you should resent are GONE.

As for handing over Eastern Germany to the Communists, you have to understand the dynamics of our alliance of convenience with Stalin at the time.  The USSR was taking unimaginable carnage fighting the Wermacht, and suffered way more than the Uk or the US did.  Stalin implored us to invade ASAP.  We wouldn't.  To Appease Stalin, we firebombed Dresden and Hamburg, invaded Italy which was incredibly hard and strategically pointless warfare.  The fire bombings and mountain fighting in Italy was to assuage Stalin's fears he wwasn't bearing the brunt of WWII by himself.

All of Germany was divided among the allies after the war.  One of those allies happened to be communist totalitarians. I regret you and everyone else there was in the Russian sector.  We hardly wanted to go at it again after the long hard war, especially with the Soviet war machine geared up at full capacity, right there.

Oooh, what amazing ability to reason and discuss.  Very impressive, very mature.  The combination of raging nationalism and ignorance is always a dangerous one.  Good thing this is only the Internet and I can laugh about such Neanderthal-like reasoning skills.

Why is it that I completely agree with guys like Spectre and The_Macallan on issues such as [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=191511&w=activePop] this[/url], but when it comes to WWII and Germany the discussion goes to shit?

Nationalism is a dead concept.  Do you think the Chicanos that want to take back the SW states give a shit that they are from Mexico or some Central American country?  No - what matters is race.  You think the 18 blacks and Chicanos that attacked the white girl in Cleveland thought about how they were all "Americans"?  No - what mattered was race.

All this ranting about Nazis and which white guy fought which white guy from which country is getting us NOWHERE.  WWII was a brother's war, just like the American Civil War and the American Revolution.  I say no more brothers' war.

American? German?  British?  South African?  I could care less.  Time to start waking the fuck up.

[/rant]

Well, I'll give the East German school system a few kudos for teaching proper English.  Crying shame the only comeback you have is to point out grammer and spelling errors.



The above might have been true up to the point where you edited [b]SPECTRE's[/b] quote to fit your anti American slant.  That is what prompted me to comment here in the first place.

Here is my problem with you, Kar98.  You are a snivling crybaby hypocrite.  You grew up under the oppression of the Soviet empire, (because your ancestors started a war of aggression with the Soviets...and LOST) then you come over here and bitch that this country didn't do ANYTHING to save your hide from the Soviets.  I highly doubt that if the tables were turned and Germany had succeeded in the domination of Russia, that Hitler would have treated the Russians any better then they treated you.  To the victor goes the spoils.  Your ancestors lost.  You had to pay.  Sorry about that.  Get over it.

Then when this country liberates Iraq in the process of the war on terror, you bitch about that as well.  I guess you figure that since we did not go into E. Germany with guns a blazing, then we shouldn't do it in Iraq.  

In another thread you  belittled the 9-11 attacks, and insinuated that we had it coming.  You pointed out the bombing of Dresden, then came back and edited the post by mentioning Bophal and Chernobyl.  You convienently forgot that Dresden happened in a declared war, that once again, was started by Germany.  Bophal and Chernobyl were [i]industrial accidents[/i], not sneak attacks.  You also [i]just happened[/i] to forget about such grand example of German hospitality at Dachau, Auschwitz, Sobibor...

The essesence of your persistant sniviling is "You suffered at the hands of the Soviets because the US didn't do anything to prevent it, or to stop it once it had started".  

The reality of the situation is that you suffered at the hands of the Soviets because your ancestors started a war of aggression with the Soviets, and with the US, and lost on both accounts.  Why should the Soviets have treated Germany with kindness?  Why should the US have stopped the Soviets from taking their pound of flesh from the aggressor of both nations?

Hey Kar, I hate to burst your little fantasy of the US going in and freeing East Germany, but in 1953 the Soviets had this thing we call "the bomb" and would have most certainly used it.
Add to that the fact that it was about all we could do at the time to get a draw in Korea, and I think the chances of a successful liberation of East Germany in 1953 were somewhere between slim and none.

Your compliment is undeserved. Most of it I taught myself.



Anti-American slant? You're out of your silly mind.



No, what prompted you to comment in here is that you have a fucking chip on your shoulder.



Here's my non-problem with you, DPeacher: Whatever you say is of no consequence to me whatsoever, your opinion of me isn't worth shit, it doesn't matter in the least bit. And it's spelled "sniveling".



I did no such thing.



Nor did I do anything of this sort. Try not to interpret what I'm saying, you're having a hard enough time comprehending plain text as it is.



That wasn't my point. What I meant to point out was that tragedies like that happen every few years. Sometimes it hits little brown people, sometimes it hits us.



Uhm, I bet you sucked when you had to write essays interpreting articles or books back in high school. First, no one was "sniveling" (that's how it's spelled), except you. And you missed the "essence" of my post in its entirety.



Where exactly did I demand that the US should have done so? I merely mentioned that it didn't happen.

[i]The reality of the situation[/i] is that you're trying to put words and opinions in my mouth that I've never said, implied or insinuated and then to bash away at them. I'll look up a word for this kind behavior later, for now I'll just call it cyber-wanking.

I quite agree with you here. Incidentally, on June 19th is the 50th anniversary of the execution of the Rosenberg couple.



True, true. It would have been WW3, and the order of the day [i]was[/i] to avoid an all-out armed conflict in Central Europe. Speculating "what if?" is kind of a waste of time; in the end the results were the same. It just took a bit more time, and less casualties. I can deal with that.

Geez, you guys.

Instead of appreciating that there were folks who didn't like soviet rule and tried to do something about it, you instead decide it's pick on Kar98 day?  WTFO?

The US' involvement in the reunification of Germany was pretty minimal as well.  

As for the post WW1 Germans laying down and playing dead for the rest of the world, what a crock of shit.  They were getting the fucked without any lube.  Had less vengeful folks been around to broker the peace after WW1, 2 might not have happened.  

Bravo to those brave souls who stood up for freedom.  

No, you're out of yours. That is exactly how you meant it. If not, how about explaining how you did mean it ?


You fucking hypocrite !! Thats the pot calling the kettle black if I ever heard it.
You have a HUGE chip on your shoulder and it shows every time you open your mouth on issues regarding the U.S.


Ok, I'll agree with this.

Had we had the sense to stay out of WW1, it would have saved way more than 1 million lives:

"A good argument can be made, however, that the direction was not steady, and that
                  American foreign policy in the 10 years after the first Roosevelt -- especially the policy
                  followed by Roosevelt’s nemesis, Woodrow Wilson -- played a major, albeit unintended,
                  role in the births of both Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.

                  No less than Winston Churchill suggested as much in 1936: "America should have minded her
                  own business and stayed out of the World War. If you hadn’t entered the war the Allies
                  would have made peace with Germany in the spring of 1917. Had we made peace then there
                  would have been no collapse in Russia followed by Communism, no breakdown in Italy
                  followed by Fascism, and Germany would not have signed the Versailles Treaty, which has
                  enthroned Nazism in Germany. If America had stayed out of the war, all of these ‘isms’
                  wouldn’t today be sweeping the continent and breaking down parliamentary government, and
                  if England had made peace early in 1917, it would have saved over one million British,
                  French, American and other lives."'

From

[url]http://www.reason.com/0306/cr.mm.teddy.shtml[/url]

Just checked my calendar, and as it would turn out this is pick on Kar98 week.  Up until the point where Kar98 edited [b]SPECTRE's[/b] comments to fit his anti US slant on life, I was appreciating those who stood up to their oppressors.  Still do.  I just have no tolerance for those dimwits who bask in the protection and freedom provided by better men, then complain about it and trivialize the sacrafices made for it.  Especially those dimwits who know what a boot on their neck feels like.



For those of us who were on active duty at the time of reunification, could you please tell us just what factors caused the collapse of the Soviet Union?  I was under the impression that the collapse of the Evil Empire was the main force behind the reunification of Germany.  



War is hell.  Losing a war is even worse.  I don't believe the US had a valid reason for entering that war.  Woodrow Wilson's body should be exhumed and shot, and his bridge over the Potomac sucks ass!  



I'll agree with that.

How do you really feel?