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Posted: 6/13/2003 5:34:46 PM EDT
[#1]
No. Just because we can't find the WMDs now doesn't mean that they weren't there when the intelligence community said they were there. They could still be hidden somewhere in Iraq, they could be in Syria, they could have been incinerated by generals who didn't want to be tried as war criminals. We haven't found the bodies of Sadaam Hussein or his sons yet, either. Does that mean that they never existed?
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Posted: 6/13/2003 5:35:28 PM EDT
[#2]
It's not the intelligence system that fail it was your President and his agenda.
Some in the intelligence community are saying they thought the current cabinet had some pretty scetchy information. Take the aquired radioactive material from Africa for instance. What a bunch of crap that turned out to be. There were big doubts about that even before he announced it to the us on national TV. I say it was all BS! [bs2] mzzlebrk |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 5:38:37 PM EDT
[#3]
To copy Donald Rumsfeld:
Quoted: No. Just because we can't find the WMDs now doesn't mean that they weren't there when the intelligence community said they were there. They could still be hidden somewhere in Iraq, they could be in Syria, they could have been incinerated by generals who didn't want to be tried as war criminals. We haven't found the bodies of Sadaam Hussein or his sons yet, either. Does that mean that they never existed? That one was mentioned on national TV as well. Possible but I will be suprised if anything ever turns up. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 6:04:42 PM EDT
[#4]
As an Intelligence guy I say BULLSHIT! There was no "intelligence failure". It's largely a made up left wing cause. No we didn't figure out who was going to do what on Sept 11th 2001. Without getting into specifics let me submit to you this...you get your fucking ass out there and watch every single person 24/7. Tell me who does what to whom, who speaks to whom and about what. There's so much armchair QB'ing on this board it's pathetic. You want to hang some one, blame that dumb fuck Klinton for crippling the intelligence community. WHat he did to us in the 90's is akin to muzzling your guard dog, chaining him out on the back 40 and then kicking him for not alerting you when your house got robbed.
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Posted: 6/13/2003 6:08:07 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: It's not the intelligence system that fail it was your President and his agenda. If you are an American, he's your president too. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 6:19:25 PM EDT
[#6]
mzzlbrk is probably a DUH troll.
I am not saying that there were'nt WMD's or that they arent still there and we havent found them. People are talking impeachment already. I'm just curious. If the intelligence community failed us it should be admitted ASAP. If not then we just take the heat. Its a coverup that will kill you. I support MY President 100%. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 6:21:02 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: Quoted: It's not the intelligence system that fail it was your President and his agenda. If you are an American, he's your president too. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 6:42:23 PM EDT
[#8]
There's so much armchair QB'ing on this board it's pathetic. You want to hang some one, blame that dumb fuck Klinton for crippling the intelligence community. WHat he did to us in the 90's is akin to muzzling your guard dog, chaining him out on the back 40 and then kicking him for not alerting you when your house got robbed. Ya, nice try. Bill Clinton was not the guy responsible for warrant, and investigative decisions at FBI, and other "Intelligence" agencies. Some people fucked up bad, and it cost American lives... Just like the "Dog Shootings", Ruby Ridge, Waco, and many others, no one will be held accountable. In fact the screw ups will be be promoted, where they can kill more Americans with their ineptness.. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 6:45:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Yes, a President who lies to the citizens of this country, this is going to come back and bite him on his ass. Even by now the radical right knows the WMD was a bullshit line. "The radical right" defined as "anyone more conservative than you?" Anyway, no one knows anything of the sort. EVERYONE was sure Saddam had WMDs...those who supported the invasion and those who did not. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 6:50:17 PM EDT
[#10]
I think the failure in intelligence comes from American citizens who will swallow anything Bush says Hook, Line and Sinker!
-Nick Viejo. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 6:52:31 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: I think the failure in intelligence comes from American citizens who will swallow anything Bush says Hook, Line and Sinker! As opposed to those who will accept what the anti-American Eurosocialists say about Bush and Iraq without question? Frankly, given the choice, I will side with Bush. You can side with the Dixie Chicks and the French if you want. You can always tell a man by the company he keeps. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 6:56:32 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: mzzlbrk is probably a DUH troll. I am not saying that there were'nt WMD's or that they arent still there and we havent found them. People are talking impeachment already. I'm just curious. If the intelligence community failed us it should be admitted ASAP. If not then we just take the heat. Its a coverup that will kill you. I support MY President 100%. [:k] Thats Me! Sticks and stones might..... |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 7:01:48 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: As opposed to those who will accept what the anti-American Eurosocialists say about Bush and Iraq without question? Frankly, given the choice, I will side with Bush. You can side with the Dixie Chicks and the French if you want. You can always tell a man by the company he keeps. I don't think we are taking sides with those that openly badmouth OUR president but I do think some of us are using a little common sense and questioning his actions. We elected him now we can question him, right? I am not going to sit back and blindly accept whatever I hear. There are facts and opinions and I have yet to see many facts to his cause for the continued loss of young American GI's. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 7:03:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: I don't think we are taking sides with those that openly badmouth OUR president but I do think some of us are using a little common sense and questioning his actions. We elected him now we can question him, right? I am not going to sit back and blindly accept whatever I hear. There are facts and opinions and I have yet to see many facts to his cause for the continued loss of young American GI's. Then you aren't paying attention. Too bad for you. Reality proceeds unfazed by your lack of belief in it. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 7:32:56 PM EDT
[#15]
Waiter! More beer and popcorn!
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Posted: 6/13/2003 7:46:49 PM EDT
[#16]
Scenario #1
Bush: Hey guys, I’ve need to settle the score for daddy. Lets make up a big bunch of crap about WMD as a reason for the war and after we have won and we don't have any WMD to show the liberal media and demonrats, well, no one will notice.” Scenario #2 Bush: Best intelligence we have say Iraq has WMD. They have repeatedly violated UN sanctions on records, inspections etc. . Take em out now while we can. Sorry, Bush didn’t get to be Pres. by being an idiot. I’ll stick with W and the second scenario instead of CNN and a few of the AR15.com political analysts. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 7:48:35 PM EDT
[#17]
Get a current copy of Soldier of Fortune magazine. Most of the so-called inteliigence failures were due to the fact that Bill Clinton re-organized and/or dessimated the CIA, and a lot of the old timers left the agency, and what was left was in-experienced people who were interested in studying global warming rather the security of the USA. Most of the new people's experience comes from text books.
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Posted: 6/13/2003 8:24:08 PM EDT
[#18]
I lived in California 1969-1973 ,lived in manhattan beach,hirmosa,redondo,and Garden Grove! You could travel south from Garden Grove and in short time be in Big Bear,mountains snow the whole nine yards(crash inn)!
You could go north and be in the death valley,see vabrinsks point,you could stand in the lowest point in the USA and stare up at the highest place at the same time! I never even went far north to San Fran,but been far south to La Hoya and even the Mexican border! Guess what this all happened in California,and Iraq is about the size of CAl. There just hasn't been enough time to search such a large area,especially under fire! And with the time we had to give all the Nay-sayers to join us ,you know he loaded all the WMD on french trucks and hauled them across the Syrian boarder! Bin laddens Mother is Syrian,well Saddam and Usa are guests of Syria and just waiting till we(the American apathetically tear our selves apart!) They are there just like the Russian migs (buried in the sand)! Patience my friend! Bob [:D] |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 8:26:02 PM EDT
[#19]
Not only has this thread made us think,
mzzlbrk has been exposed as a DU troll. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 8:27:24 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Get a current copy of Soldier of Fortune magazine. Most of the so-called inteliigence failures were due to the fact that Bill Clinton re-organized and/or dessimated the CIA, and a lot of the old timers left the agency, and what was left was in-experienced people who were interested in studying global warming rather the security of the USA. Most of the new people's experience comes from text books. So perhaps the questions shouldn't penalize the CIA, but rather Klinton for neutering the CIA? |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 8:35:06 PM EDT
[#21]
It wasn't an issue of lower intellegence personal failure, but the higher ups ignoring the lower's intel. This is how intelegence works. They produce whatever the administration wants to hear.
Saddam MAY have had a very small amount of WMD, mostly a little bio and chem, but no nukes. Nothing worth starting a war over. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 8:41:39 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Nothing worth starting a war over. Note: there WAS a reason for calling it 'Iraqi Freedom'. This war was worth starting even if Saddam had no WMD of any kind. Life under a Dictatorship sucks, and these people will be happy once the shit settles down, and everything is re-structured (I can attest to that). |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 9:06:28 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Quoted: Nothing worth starting a war over. Note: there WAS a reason for calling it 'Iraqi Freedom'. This war was worth starting even if Saddam had no WMD of any kind. Life under a Dictatorship sucks, and these people will be happy once the shit settles down, and everything is re-structured (I can attest to that). Oh so the name says it all. I get it.[rolleyes] Guess the name had nothing to do with making it sound convincing to the American people. It should've been called "Operation Kill Sadaam II". Someone better tell Bush the great liberator that his help is needed in many other third world shitholes. But somehow I don't think he has plans to so-called liberate any others. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 9:10:57 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: As an Intelligence guy I say BULLSHIT! There was no "intelligence failure". It's largely a made up left wing cause. No we didn't figure out who was going to do what on Sept 11th 2001. Without getting into specifics let me submit to you this...you get your fucking ass out there and watch every single person 24/7. Tell me who does what to whom, who speaks to whom and about what. There's so much armchair QB'ing on this board it's pathetic. You want to hang some one, blame that dumb fuck Klinton for crippling the intelligence community. WHat he did to us in the 90's is akin to muzzling your guard dog, chaining him out on the back 40 and then kicking him for not alerting you when your house got robbed. Can I get an "Amen!" here brothers? Your intelligence community isn't characterized by its sucesses, which nobody ever hears about, or crisises averted, which never broach the public radar screen. They stave off catastrophe all of the damned time, and nobody ever knows. The only time anyone ever notices their work is when one of these so-called "failures" surfaces. Blame the political leaders. Our Intel community has been strongly urging our national leadership to kill international terrorists every time they rear their ugly heads since the late 1980s. The Clinton Regime blew several excellent opportunities to wipe out senior Al-Qaeda leadership for years, and abjectly failed to do so, even after they were very clearly one of the worst threats we had ever faced. They also had piss-poor OPSEC, to the point that AL-Qaeda was able to tighten all of their security procedures, making them even harder to find pre-9-11. Anyone want to take a guess at when Al-Qaeda was classified as a threat to US interests? When they came onto our intel folks radar? When was the first Al-Qaeda attack on Americans? The Intelligence community's "failures" are usually the result of poor decisions by the folks over them. You can only give the boss accurate, timely information; you can't make him do the right thing. As to Iraq, they were right. I am surpirsed that the smoking gun of this whole thing hasn't surfaced yet, but we will know where the weapons went, eventually. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 9:17:08 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Not only has this thread made us think, mzzlbrk has been exposed as a DU troll. Why single me out. Others seem to share the same opinion. Because I don't care for the man does not make up my political choice. Go pick on somebody your own size pooby. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 9:21:33 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: It's not the intelligence system that fail it was your President and his agenda. Some in the intelligence community are saying they thought the current cabinet had some pretty scetchy information. Take the aquired radioactive material from Africa for instance. What a bunch of crap that turned out to be. There were big doubts about that even before he announced it to the us on national TV. I say it was all BS! [bs2] mzzlebrk I call bullshit on your entire DU post. How about the names of the 'some in the intelligence community'. I guess you know them personally. Speaking of intelligence, it's spelled sKetchy, not sCetchy. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 9:25:08 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Quoted: Not only has this thread made us think, mzzlbrk has been exposed as a DU troll. Why single me out. Others seem to share the same opinion. Because I don't care for the man does not make up my political choice. Go pick on somebody your own size pooby. I voted for Bush but [b]if[/b] he deliberately lied to the American people that is something I will not tolerate. If he signs an AWB that will do it as well. We'll just see what develops before the election. As for your getting picked on, it's cuz you don't have a pretty girl in your avatar like me. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 9:26:36 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's not the intelligence system that fail it was your President and his agenda. If you are an American, he's your president too. Where is your PROOF of Bush's lies? |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 9:37:22 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Okay, who is YOUR president? I call bullshit on your entire DU post. How about the names of the 'some in the intelligence community'. I guess you know them personally. Speaking of intelligence, it's spelled sKetchy, not sCetchy. By Walter Pincus and Dana Priest Washington Post Staff Writers Thursday, June 5, 2003; Page A01 Vice President Cheney and his most senior aide made multiple trips to the CIA over the past year to question analysts studying Iraq's weapons programs and alleged links to al Qaeda, creating an environment in which some analysts felt they were being pressured to make their assessments fit with the Bush administration's policy objectives, according to senior intelligence officials. With Cheney taking the lead in the administration last August in advocating military action against Iraq by claiming it had weapons of mass destruction, the visits by the vice president and his chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, "sent signals, intended or otherwise, that a certain output was desired from here," one senior agency official said yesterday. Why is it some people on this board persist on making comments about spelling at 12:30 in the morning. OK MR. PERFECT |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 11:20:21 PM EDT
[#30]
President bush is a great man. hill & knowlton was great too.
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Posted: 6/13/2003 11:52:24 PM EDT
[#31]
It would be very unfortunate if Bush tried to scapegoat the CIA for not finding any WMD. It's not their fault. Bush was the one who was so goddamn certain, who wanted war so badly and using WMD as the pretext.
The WMD issue only seems to bother people who hated Bush and the idea of getting rid of Saddam Hussein, anyway. They look for anything they can start shrieking about. Look how they reacted to the museum looting (which turned out not to be the cultural catastrophe they claimed it was; 33 artifacts missing instead of 170,000). I look at the bottom line, which is: 1. We put terror states like Iran, NK, Syria, and Saudi Arabia on notice. We have the will to destroy their regimes and they can't count on hiding behind the civilized conventions of international law to stop us if they support terrorism. 2. We have the military power to do destroy their regimes. Easily. Quickly. Without breaking a sweat. None of them can possibly stand a chance against us. So stop with the terrorism. |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 12:45:57 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Quoted: Nothing worth starting a war over. Note: there WAS a reason for calling it 'Iraqi Freedom'. This war was worth starting even if Saddam had no WMD of any kind. Life under a Dictatorship sucks, and these people will be happy once the shit settles down, and everything is re-structured (I can attest to that). Just caught this post - and your screen name. Are you Russian? Eastern European? If so, how shocked were you at all the "useful idiots" spouting anti US propaganda from within that you discovered when you got to this country? |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 1:53:41 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Get a current copy of Soldier of Fortune magazine. Most of the so-called inteliigence failures were due to the fact that Bill Clinton re-organized and/or dessimated the CIA, and a lot of the old timers left the agency, and what was left was in-experienced people who were interested in studying global warming rather the security of the USA. Most of the new people's experience comes from text books. SOF notwithstanding, the CIA and others have been f*cking up by the numbers since Lebanon. It's easy to blame Clinton for everything since then you don't have to really think. |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 2:48:16 AM EDT
[#34]
If someone is to be fired you can take your pick from Rumsfeld or Richard Perle. When CIA and military intelligence failed to turn up evidence to support their claims of Iraqi possession of massive amounts of chem-bio weapons and a strong nuclear weapons program, they set up their own intel cell dedicated to producing such evidence. The uncertainty inherent in intel estimates was consistently slanted to support the hypothesis that Iraq had WMD.
While I believe that Iraq did have some WMD and a research program, it was nowhere near the scale that Secretary Powell described to the UN. If there was really that much we would have come across some evidence of it by now. Let me also say that I believe that fighting the war in Iraq was the right thing to do, if for no other reason that that sonofabitch Hussein was shooting at our pilots patrolling the no fly zone every day. He had also never fully complied with the requirements of the 1991 cease fire. I do believe that it was wrong to tell the American people that an impending WMD threat was the reason that we had to go to war. It was the administration's plan to go after Iraq from its first day in office. First, attempts were made to tie Iraq to 9-11, when that failed it was Al Qaeda ties - another long shot. Finally, WMD was something that the US public at large bought so that was the reason proclaimed. Now when the stuff if difficult to find, the danger of using such a tenuous premise for war is readily apparent. Not the first time that a cause for war was manufactured. No I'm not talking about Pearl Harbor, but the Gulf of Tonkin surely counts for one. The sinking of the battleship Maine in Havana harbor which started the Spanish-American war is potentially another example of a trumped up premise to start a war. |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 3:13:41 AM EDT
[#35]
1. Everyone, even Hans Blix, admits that Saddam had WMD. 8500 liters of weaponized anthrax, just as an example. Saddam says, "Oh that? Yeah, we got rid of it a while ago."
Who did? How? When? Where? Show us the records. We're talking about a police state that kept very careful records of people jailed, tortured, killed, assets confiscated, weapons bought, built, lent, sold, etc. It's just not conceivable that they would just not know or have a record of the fate of something like 8500 liters of weaponized anthrax. That's something you want to keep pretty tight track of, even if you are a slavering, murderous tyrant. 2. During the long, slow, ugly dance trying to get the UN to move, don't think for a second that trucks weren't heading west into Syria with all of Saddam's favorite toys and treats. 3. Anything left can literally be hidden anywhere in a country, as has already been said, the size of California. Imagine being the 300 poor bastards who have had to find the broken down shack in the middle of nowhere that it's buried under. Now imagine doing it while the world and the administration is baying for your blood for not finding it yesterday. |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 3:55:14 AM EDT
[#36]
2. During the long, slow, ugly dance trying to get the UN to move, don't think for a second that trucks weren't heading west into Syria with all of Saddam's favorite toys and treats. |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 4:32:56 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Nothing worth starting a war over. Your opinion. Thank God farther-sighted people than you run the country. |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 4:33:36 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Why single me out. Because you deserve it? |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 4:34:40 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: President bush is a great man. hill & knowlton was great too. But you aren't. Go away. |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 8:06:22 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: Scenario #1 Bush: Hey guys, I’ve need to settle the score for daddy. Lets make up a big bunch of crap about WMD as a reason for the war and after we have won and we don't have any WMD to show the liberal media and demonrats, well, no one will notice.” Scenario #2 Bush: Best intelligence we have say Iraq has WMD. They have repeatedly violated UN sanctions on records, inspections etc. . Take em out now while we can. [red]Sorry, Bush didn’t get to be Pres. by being an idiot.[/red] I’ll stick with W and the second scenario instead of CNN and a few of the AR15.com political analysts. You're right, Bush [b]didn't[/b] get to be president by being an idiot. He [b]did[/b] get to be president by being a politician. -Nick Viejo. |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 8:35:56 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: You're right, Bush [b]didn't[/b] get to be president by being an idiot. He [b]did[/b] get to be president by being a politician. Yes, that would be how every president since Washington got to be president. Would you like to explain to us that the sky is blue now? |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 9:17:09 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: 2. During the long, slow, ugly dance trying to get the UN to move, don't think for a second that trucks weren't heading west into Syria with all of Saddam's favorite toys and treats. Well, if they "just get away", then they are still a threat aren't they?? Hmmmmmm? Remember when we had Bin-Laden and 3-500 "terrorists" surrounded at Tora-Bora?? When they finally went in, they found what, 4 bodies?? Of course Bin-Laden escaped!! He is very useful! |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 9:25:29 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: Of course Bin-Laden escaped!! He is very useful! Black-helicopter bullshit. |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 11:14:19 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: It wasn't an issue of lower intellegence personal failure, but the higher ups ignoring the lower's intel. This is how intelegence works. They produce whatever the administration wants to hear. Saddam MAY have had a very small amount of WMD, mostly a little bio and chem, but no nukes. Nothing worth starting a war over. Maybe some of these higher-ups ignore the warnings because they didn't understand the implications, you have to have the foresight to be able to recognize the implications. What I'm trying to say, were these higher-ups rookies? |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 12:10:03 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: Quoted: Scenario #1 Bush: Hey guys, I’ve need to settle the score for daddy. Lets make up a big bunch of crap about WMD as a reason for the war and after we have won and we don't have any WMD to show the liberal media and demonrats, well, no one will notice.” Scenario #2 Bush: Best intelligence we have say Iraq has WMD. They have repeatedly violated UN sanctions on records, inspections etc. . Take em out now while we can. [red]Sorry, Bush didn’t get to be Pres. by being an idiot.[/red] I’ll stick with W and the second scenario instead of CNN and a few of the AR15.com political analysts. You're right, Bush [b]didn't[/b] get to be president by being an idiot. He [b]did[/b] get to be president by being a politician. -Nick Viejo. |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 7:57:28 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's not the intelligence system that fail it was your President and his agenda. If you are an American, he's your president too. Thanks for assuming what I know. Its so far from the truth you have to be drowning in bong water to have even dreamed this up. You really need to take a day off from this site to at least put out the flames. Then spend another day at [url]http://www.fas.org[/url]. Read about what the liberal media is incapable of reporting. Read about how Clinton KNEW of banned weapons and programs. Read about the UN and how it made resolutions yet never acted on any violations of these. When you have opened your mind, eel free to come back to open arms here. Until then, please refrain from any posting on this site. |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 3:12:47 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: When you have opened your mind, eel free to come back to open arms here. Until then, please refrain from any posting on this site. Oh, I see! [b]YOU[/b] own, operate [b]AND[/b] moderate AR15.com! [img]http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/sauer/angry-smiley-011.gif[/img] |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 3:32:35 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Quoted: Of course Bin-Laden escaped!! He is very useful! Black-helicopter bullshit. Yes rik, it IS Bullshit. Once again Americans are being lied to by their govt.... |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 5:13:00 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Yes rik, it IS Bullshit. Thanks for admitting it. |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 5:32:35 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: Quoted: Yes rik, it IS Bullshit. Thanks for admitting it. [b]Once again Americans are being lied to by their govt....[/b] Yer welcome!!![:D] |
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