My fellow members, please allow me to present a
hypothetical situation and get your ideas on how
to handle a automobile break-in.

I recently bought a M998 Hummer and it is a real
head turner. It has no locks on the doors and I keep it outside. It has no ignition switch, but has a keyed battery cutoff. I put a wheel boot on the Hummvee front wheel to imobilize it too.

I installed a radio paging alarm system that goes
off anytime somebody enters the vehicle. You would guess that anyone who would buy a military Humvee would have a large collection of guns. You would be right.

If somebody breaks into my car the last thing I want to do is shoot them. My NRA training has taught me well, to never point a gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.It is unlikely I would ever shoot anyone breaking into my car, but would if they attacked me.  What is a best way to show up and greet a thief, but maintain control of the situation.

1. weapon drawn and pointed at ground.

2. weapon drawn pointed at criminal?

3. weapon in holster?

4. use shotgun with rock salt?

5. other alternatives?

A list of possible weapons the thief could meet
are:

1. M1 tactical shotgun

2. M4 with sure-fire tac light

3. 357 S&W 686 pistol

4. any number of other pistols and rifles.

What is the correct way to handle this situation?
I appreciate both uninformed opinions and those from professional LEO's. I know many might say "call a cop", but frankly they just can't be everywhere. The idea is to catch the perp, not fill out a report after they got away.

Thanks

It depends on your state laws but if it's legal I would first call 911, then surprise the thief with your M4, pointing right at him, then flip the light on in his face. This way he clearly sees the weapon first, make sure you chamber a round in front of him, the sound will make him think twice about running. Just be prepared to clean the sh*t out of your hummer after he sh*ts himself. That approach does have some advantages and disadvantages if you don't preceed it with a strong, loud command to do as you wish. I would say something similar to what cops said to me...Don't move scumbag, put your hands out where I can see them, then direct him to the ground by saying Get on your face assh*le. Make sure he goes face down away from you, hands spread in front etc so he can't see what you are doing. That's the only language criminals understand. Then hold him at gunpoint until the cops arrive. Be sure to tell the 911 operator that you are armed and what you are wearing so you don't get shot. Without the verbal commands you have to expect the thief to run, he may run anyway but that's more likely than him attacking you as you already have the bead on him. If he runs, then you are faced with shooting him, chasing him, or letting him go. I wouldn't personally shoot a thief unless he was in my home and I wouldn't chase him either because eventually you will have to stomp his ass to the ground in order to hold him for the cops. That's a lawsuit waiting to happen especially if it escalates into deadly force as he goes for your weapon. Also, many thieves have accomplisses(sp?)waiting in the background so be aware of that potential if you decide to go for it although I wouldn't even bother, at least not in my town. Once they leave the area you may be considered the aggressor in a legal sense if you chase.

I always lock my black 95 Impala SS which is one a hell of alot of people want to steal.  If they get in there and crank that thing up since I got my very loud exhaust I'll know they will meet my AR with night scope.  See how it goes from there.

I'd never use the rocksalt option. If I'm going to shoot at someone I'm going to shoot to kill.

I think the best situation has already been described above. M4 drawn and pointed at the suspect with the tac light on. He would be a moron or high to not stop.

I wouldn't use rocksalt either.  In Texas, if it's after dark, you can just shoot them.  Although the best way to do it would be the one described above.  Scare the shit out of them, in a loud command voice, tell them what to do and call the cops.  If you go through with this option though, you must be prepared to shoot if something happens.  Btw, where did you get that and how much?  [:D]

You need a garage.

Don't know that one of those would fit very well in a garage.  Not quite your normal sedan.

Insurance.  

It's cheaper than any legal defense could ever be, win or lose.

Buy insurance for your vehicle.  Target harden your assets.  If NRA training has taught you  well  you would remember it is only property.

real baaaad!!!



build a custom garage, and secure it..

this has to be a hummer released from service prior to like 1986 i think.. after that the .gov started chopping them.. and prices are in the 100K+ figure lately.

they are irreplaceable, no insurance can compensate for that.

oh and when it is in the garage it is considered castle domain..  shoot to kill if thats what it comes to..



just MHO

My friend bough one new & had to spend a lot to widen the garage door.

After a year of problems, he got a lawyer & returned it under the lemon law, taking a reasonable reduction for the use he got.

It would seem a locksmith could fit you with some kind of solenoid lock that would wire into your alarm system.

I don't understand why he had such trouble with it, it was heavily built - the shock mount bolts were huge, for example.

Don't know where he got his but [url=http://classifieds.autos.yahoo.com/class/detail.html?cid=automobiles-1049239890-4395713&&cl_price=1000&ch_price=50000&fullnodeid=750002932&ct_p=y&ct_l=lat*427171**long*-878253&vtype=autos&csz=53405&distance=921.68]here's one [/url] thats nice looking

right now garage is not an option, but am building new one at SHTF house in mountains. Mine is too small. The hummer is 7'5" wide with water fording
exhaust. already have it insured, but it is not easily replaced. it was not 100K, less than half
that. This M998 is exactly the same as in Blackhawk  down. I have the photos here on AR-15.com. here is
the address:
[url]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Default.asp?sView=T&iGalleryUnq=721[/url]

If you dont mind me asking, how much did you pay for your Hummer?

I want one in the worse way.  I will own a Hummer or a Porsche 911 before I am 30.  I got 5 years to save....

Shoot, shovel, and shut up.

GunLvr

If you can afford a hummer, and all those firearms, and prolly a decent home, then you can afford to install custom locks on it!!

This may also help you out should any liability situation arise. If a scumbag sees your guns in an unlocked hummer, grabs 'em, you shoot, you're prolly gonna get it for "entrapping" the poor criminal. If he breaks a lock, it "looks" better for all concerned, (including the District Attorney).

Really, where did you get it and how much did you pay for it?!  I want one like it was kewl!

I would like a REAL one here.  I can get one for 28k? I think if anyone wants IM me and I'll look into it for you, I just dont have that money right now and it wouldnt be my first choice.  If I got one it would be the only truck/SUV I would own, I have threatned to throw people out of my car for suggesting that I get one.

Sure, and rape is only sex with one consenting party.

That's the standard bullshit liberal answer to crime:
"Just give them what they want, and they'll go away."
Fuck that!!  I worked to pay for what I have.  If you want to try to steal it from me, we're gonna have a situation.
I'm not flaming you or accusing you of buying into that liberal line of BS, QCMGR, but I'm sick and tired of people being afraid to do the right thing and defend their homes and property from slimebags because the DA might want to make an example of them.  Yeah, I understand the reality of facing punishment for defending yourself and your property, but by not doing so, we only give the impression that property theft is an acceptable career choice.

I'm only 35, and I'll tell you that "How to handle..." wouldn't have been a question when I was younger than say 14 or 15.  Back then, it was simple:  Confront the bastard, give him a split-second chance to give up...if that fails, move to level 2.  
It seems like every year, more and more people line up to be "neutered".  

m4ortunate, if I were you, I'd defend my property.  But you alone have to choose what stand you're willing to take.

Yankee1911:

I agree, why just give it to them?
I live in Denver, where do you live?
As you may know, Denver is very unkind
to assault rifles

M4ortunate

I used to live in CO I hated it I left.

install a hidden fuel cut off switch. somehting easy to get to, but not where a person would normally think to look. that way if you aren't around to confront the thief, and it does get stolen, he'll run out of gas right down the road. it is just a valve spliced into the fuel line, then routed through the floor boards in an out of the way place ie: under the seat, or some other sneaky place.

No offence taken Yankee1911,

I secure my property and have a CCW.  My statement was intended to illicit a response from m4ortunate.  His question is trollish in nature.  If he has the money to afford weapons and a Hummer in addition to NRA training, why would he ask such a question?  I think he is a lib trying to see if we will give him advice that should not be given over the internet.  I did not want to be part of what he is asking for.

lib!!, no, no I am a con, get it con, not
to be confused with CONVICT. I don't troll,
I just want to hear other opinions and get some
attention. Advice is just that ( advice), not to be confused with facts. Troll my a$$, I never even lived under a bridge.

I'm in Lakewood.  You couldn't pay me enough to live in the city of Denver.

And soon, I'll be out of the entire shithole metro area altogether.  I'm moving to the western slope and never looking back.

Cool.  Glad you didn't take my rant personally.

I don't think m4ortunate is a troll, but my advice to him stands...You have to make your own decision about how you'd handle a situation like this.  

I'm just fed up with the idea that people should just give up their property to every little turd who suffered a "bad childhood"  
I work my butt off to buy the things I have, and if somebody wants to take them, it won't be an easy job.

No problem Yankee1911 .[;)]  I should also add; m4ortunate why didn't you bring this up during your "training"?  What did they recommend?[:K]

In WI:

It's only legal to USE deadly force if you are in danger of death or great bodily harm... Not to protect property, or to protect yourself from minor injury...

However, you may use any lower level of force for those purposes, and there is no limit to how much force you can THREATEN.

So... Anyone breaking into my car gets a gun in their face, if I have one handy...

At home, my car is parked in clear view of my bedroom window... So it's 'grab AK or AR, open window, take aim'... Desired result: 'OH SHIT, HE'S GOT A MACHINEGUN!!!! RUN!!!!' (since the average street punk has only seen these guns in the movies, and when's the last time a movie AR or AK was semi-auto?)... No shooting needed...

Away from home, my gun (1911) is in the glove compartment, in a soft ('triangle') case, with 2 mags sitting on top of the case. WI requires it to be encased & unloaded (with 'unloaded' being defined as no mag in the gun, no round in the chamber. We don't have an ammo-separate law here, fortunately)...

Not alot of good for scaring off vandals/thieves, unless they are approaching while I am in or just outside the car... In that case, it's a question of fight-or-flight... I'd go for the gun if I didn't have a clear/viable escape route (A 280HP car can be a powerful weapon as well)...

If I catch someone vandalizing my car, I'm screwed... The only weapon that I can practically and legally carry is a medium sized (4-6in) folding knife, openly visible (techincally, open carry of firearms is legal, but this fact seems to have escaped the police in SE WI)... And you know what they say about knife fights ('The best way to survive a knife fight is never get in one in the first place. Failing that, bring a gun')....

Well, theres the rub. Never point a gun at someone unless you plan to kill them, but a gun
is not a threat unless you point it at them. See
we are back to my original question, Do I forget
about everything the NRA teaches and point the gun even if it only a threat and would not shoot
if they ran. It is not like TV where everybody
points at everybody and thing are cool. I think
in real life some people will clearly freak out.
Who can predict what they will do. I do have some
body armor so I guess I should throw that on too
and intimidate them with the whole persona.

Okay, now you're starting to sound like a troll.

When and where did you get your "training", and who was the instructor?

In the given situation, I'd say M4 with light pointed at criminal. Tell him to lie down in your strongest command voice, but I'd omit the cursing/name calling. I say rule 2 as "never point a gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy". You are willing to destroy the criminal, but you won't unless he threatens you.

IMHO, don't bother with rocksalt. It's the old shoot to wound argument. You don't use a gun unless you feel your life is in danger, and if it is in danger, you shoot to kill.

Also IMHO, the shotgun is a better weapon for the situation, but that light makes the m4 the best choice.

If you use a gun, you have to be prepared to kill someone.

Are you prepared to kill someone for a car?

Yes, gun safety rules WRT the range and normal handling dicatate that you never point the gun at something you do not intend to destroy.

However, these are not ordinary circumstances, and IMHO that rule does not apply when confronting a real live threat... 'Range rules' are fine when dealing with paper targets. But the vandal may have his own weapon, and quick-draw contests are for movies... If he's staring down your barrel, it's alot less likely he'll try to shoot you (or succeed in doing so/live to tell, if he does try)... Better safe than sorry, and better pointing-but-not-having-to-shoot than not pointing and getting in a movie-draw-match with some street hood (which WILL result in someone getting shot)...

Besides, when your state law lets you point, but doesn't let you shoot, what else is your gun good for?

No, I am prepared to THREATEN to kill someone for a car.

I am prepared to ACTUALLY kill them if they try to kill me in response to said threat...

In Colorado it isn't legal to defend property with deadly force.  The garage isn't considered part of the castle. The "make my day law" has specific provisions that are very clear about when and if a person is shootable.
NEVER and I repeat NEVER be in a position to have to go into court defending your actions for shooting someone with a scary black rifle cause they were in your Humvee.  A Denver jury would convict you in a New York second.

That would make you an agressor and a mutual combatant in just about every state but Texas as night.  One goes to the morgue and one goes to jail.  I'd highly advise reading Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme".

Be very aware of what can happen to you in the courts both criminal as well as civil.  Do you really want the prosecutor showing the jury and AR15?

Circular logic...

Rubber Buckshot works. I dont know what the legal status of it is though. I do know that using deadly force against vandals in NY is a crime.

If they dont have a weapon you could probably just start a brawl...

I checked the law before I came up with that position...

I can't legally shoot, but can legally point...

I'm basically betting that the BG doesn't read the state law, and assumes 'TV law' (i.e. that he can legally be shot for what he's doing)... If he knows I can't shoot him, it won't work... Basically, 'Do you feel lucky? (I hope not, 'cause I can't do anything if you do!)'

If the BG tries to shoot me, I have to attempt to withdraw (i.e. duck back into my house), and if BG's actions still threaten me despite said attempt (i.e. he then tries to break in, or he starts firing blindly at the wall), I re-gain my right to shoot... But we're back to the presumption that the BG doesn't feel lucky today...

As for open street encounters, the way WI handles things my gun is out of practical reach. The only scenario I can see where I'd use the glovebox gun are an attempted carjacking or armed robbery (with no option to run, i.e. stopped at a light with cars in front) that I 'see coming' in time to grab and load the gun. In that case, the 'death or great bodily harm' clause comes into play, and it's a different set of rules...

It is circular logic, but it's legally created circular logic (If they had prohibited the threat of deadly force as well as the use, this odd case would not exist. But they didn't)...

At least here you can (use of force anywhere below 'death or great bodily harm' is legit for protection of property)...

The problem is that 'excessive force' is a case-by-case deal... So one person may get away with using a bat or pistol-whipping without arrest, whereas another will go to jail for throwing punches... 100% subjective when not involving a gun, knife, etc...

Hence my preference for the threat of superior force: It's less likely to require the USE of said force (The threat of a fistfight will most likely start a fistfight, but people are far less likely to argue with the barrel of a gun)  and thus less likely to land you in court...

P.S. This 'load a round while pointing a gun at someone' stuff is hollywood BS... Load the round when you pick up the gun... If you're worried about accidentally shooting the guy, then use the safety (cock & lock)... It's alot faster to flip a safety off than it is to chamber a round...

What about something like the Gard-A-Car (none on EBAY right now) that will allow the ignition to operate briefly before it begins to cut out and then disables the igntion?

Or another ignition disabling system?

The advantage of the Gard is that when the vehicle is moved, it is considered stolen instead of vadalized for police and insurance purposes, and the thief is likely to abandon it after it is disabled on/near the roadway where it is attracting attention.

Sounds good, only the Humvee really does not
have an ignition. It is diesel. It has a glow
plug controller.

You just need the battery cutout and an electric fuel solinoid buried in the chassis so even if they jumper direct to the starter, it won't run. And for the third time:
[size=3]Where can I buy one? [/size=3]

Gentlemen,

[url]www.off-road.com/hummer/general/surplus.html[/url]

I smell BULLSHIT.  Owning an actual M998 is a no-no.  

Look at some of the statements this person has made:

"I recently bought a M998 Hummer and it is a real head turner. It has no locks on the doors and I keep it outside. It has no ignition switch, but has a keyed battery cutoff. I put a wheel boot on the Hummvee front wheel to imobilize it too."

huh?  what do you do when you drive around town, lug your wheel boot everywhere?

"I installed a radio paging alarm system that goes off anytime somebody enters the vehicle. You would guess that anyone who would buy a military Humvee would have a large collection of guns. You would be right."  

Radio paging alarm?  I would guess anybody driving around in an actual M998 on public roads and is not transporting the vehicle from one base to another is a MORON.  All the guys on this board that have been in them for real will tell ya...they ain't the pinnacle of comfort.  

"If somebody breaks into my car the last thing I want to do is shoot them. My NRA training has taught me well, to never point a gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.It is unlikely I would ever shoot anyone breaking into my car, but would if they attacked me. What is a best way to show up and greet a thief, but maintain control of the situation."

Nice try, but quoting Jeff Cooper's rule and claiming to have NRA training doesn't cut it.  If you really understood life, you'd realize it is just a vehicle.  It will be a shit-bucket in ten years and you won't want it.  But, then again, with your "imaginary M998" it will probably have rocket jets attached to it in ten years.

"right now garage is not an option, but am building new one at SHTF house in mountains. Mine is too small. The hummer is 7'5" wide with water fording exhaust. already have it insured, but it is not easily replaced. it was not 100K, less than half that. This M998 is exactly the same as in Blackhawk down"

You have enough dough for a 50k vehicle but no place to park it?  What, do you live out of it?  Oh, just how big is that SHTF house going to be?  10,000 sqft?  With a really strong back-up generator?  

I really love the "same as in Blackhawk down" message.  Too funny.  Hey, how is your good buddy Hoot?

This entire thread is like a mini comedy.  If you are just trolling, congrats, it is entertaining.  If you are serious might I suggest a good doctor, help you come out of fantasy land.

-Fuji

Fuji,

clearly you are a stupid twit. If you are ready to back up your BS with cash, I will buy you an airline ticket to Denver and we can go for a ride
on the streets of Denver. You have 1K $ to bet on this? I thought so, you are just another big mouth shooting it off. I am glad my ownership of things you will never own pisses you off so much. Should I send you a copy of the deed to my mountain property? You have another 1K $. Want to
see my condo in denver and garage measurements?
Want my wife to drive her Mercedes over your jealous ass? I thought not. Guys like you are just so fun to piss off because they don't have a life and worry about what everyone else has.

Good Luck

Yankee,

a Troll?, Me, come on over next Saturday
we will go to the Aurora Gun Club in the Humvee
We can put on my body armor and "play" Military
Moron. My 50 Cal is on order, but we can throw
all the ammo I purchased at targets. What you say
want to get together and burn some powder.

M4ortunate.

[:K]

Sorry Fuji, I call bullshit on you, [;D]
[url]http://newsite.real4wd.com/content/hmmwv-vehicles.asp[/url]
I have seen my share around here all tricked out and I'm not talking about the H2 either.

Edited to add:
In August 1999 a new chapter was written in the military HMMWV story. The US Marine Corp made an arrangement with a defense contractor to take used HMMWVs in exchange for new equipment and allowed the HMMWVs to be sold at auction to dealers. These HMMWVs range from good condition to near scrap, but they are legitimate vehicles with the Form 97 documentation of legal sale. About 500 were sold to dealers and exporters at prices in the $17 - 20,000 range and more may be coming though this channel. (See Miltary Vehicles magazine, Sept/Oct 1999 for the full story.) As these are absorbed into the market, prices should drop due to the increased availability. Official DoD policy has not changed, but these USMC HMMWVs will be hitting the streets and you should start to see them advertised for sale.

Excerpted from this link:
[url]http://www.olive-drab.com/od_mvg_hmmwv.php3[/url]
So Fuji, I think you owe a little [hail2][hail2][hail2][hail2][nana]

cs223,

No shit.  I guess I am out of the loop on these things.  It has been some times since I have been around that element. When I am wrong, I am wrong.  So I guess m4orunate may have a M998.  

But, I still ain't buying his story.   I also find the insults and bragging to be of particularly funny instance as well.  

"Fuji, clearly you are a stupid twit"  - Hey with stuff like that, how does one compete?

"Want my wife to drive her Mercedes over your jealous ass? I thought not. Guys like you are just so fun to piss off because they don't have a life and worry about what everyone else has."

-Wow are you clever.  Throwing out the comment about your wife's Mercedes and your .50 cal(on order.) This is the typical, "see I have lots of money!" comeback.  I also like how you have deducted that I have no life, I am jealous, etc...

The truth is, I was scanning the boards, saw the thread, read it & commented on it.  You don't like my comments?  Fankly I don't give a shit.

The truth is your entire post wreaks of self-inflated garbage. I'm not pissed, I am amused.

Re-examine your initial post.

What makes you think that a used, beat-to-shit, uncomfortable, old, military vehicle, with a top speed of about 65-70mph is a burglers dream?

You should be more concerned about when your wife drives to the supermarket to get groceries.  Your "Mercedes"(which is ever poised to run up someones ass) is a much more desirable mark.

Now, let's say you do have a surplus M998 and I am wrong.  I can live with that.  But jealous?  Are you nuts or just plain ignorant?  I have spent many hours in those miserable vehicles.  No thanks, you can keep 'em.  

Oh, I will refrain from making any vulgar personal attacks.  But do my a favor will ya, don't forget to say hello to Hoot ok?

-Fuji

Ok, just a couple of ideas.  number one, you don't need a fuel line cutoff.  All hmmvee made for the military are diesel, 6.2 GM.  Unless the military changed the design, the injection pump is run by a start/run/stop soleinod inside the top cover.  If you are lost already, get a chilton manual on diesels for the 6.2, and 7.3 (GM and Ford) both use the same basic design.  One wire passes juice to the solenoid to enable it to turn the injection pump on, if you install a cutoff somewhere on that circuit, no pump no start.  Next, if possible, install someform of motion sensing light and I mean BIG light to shine on it if movement is there.  Think about a 500 watt light in some form would be about right 2 if there is a way one per side.  If motion will not work, but the lights can be installed, trigger them when the alarm goes off.  if you are forced to confront an intruder, the biggest baddest light that surefire or streamlight puts out should be on him first, REMEMBER the 21 ft rule!!  DONT forget to check for his friends,  you can only reasonably defend your life, not property, soccer moms will be on the jury, dont fuck up.  Better yet never get to that point, can   you rent a garage closeby, with power of course, that would allow you to set up the lights and perhaps be more suitable to security like locks and alarms.