Do you carry your pistol in Condition 1 or 0?

If I understand this correctly:

Condition 1:

Magazine loaded, one in the chamber, hammer cocked, and thumb saftey ON.

Condition 0:

Magazine loaded, one in the chamber, hammer cocked, and thumb safety OFF.

I'm leaning toward Condition 1 but that may slow reaction time.  What do you all think?

Cocked and locked...the only way to fly

Practice will virtually eliminate reaction time for condition 1. Condition 0 = AD when holstering.... your choice.

[/quote]
Practice will virtually eliminate reaction time for condition 1. Condition 0 = AD when holstering.... your choice.[/quote]

Yeah, I was thinking about that.  But my damn Fobus paddle holster, doesn't give me  confidence, sometimes.  I practice  quick draws (per the instructions that came with the holster) and 4/5 times it's quick.  And one time, it snags.  Same result on the Fobus holster for my XD40.

Cocked and locked, because it was designed to be carried that way.

Thats an issue with your holster... not the condition of carry. With a Fobus holster and a 1911 in condition 0, you'll be creating holes in the floor or worse when holstering.

You should not be touching the saftey until you are clear of the holster anyway.  

If fobus holsters are so unsafe to put a gun in when it's in condition 0, then how do people with Glocks safely use them? This is an honest question. I have an XD, so I just keep my hand off of the grip safety if I can. I don't know about the Glocks though. Is a fobus able to hit the trigger but not the "trigger safety?"

As to the holster locking up, they were talking about this over on HS2000talk.com Apparantly, the solution is to drill holes and insert screws and shims, instead of the factory rivets. This should allow you to adjust tension. I'm planning on doing it with mine in the near future.

Remember our old friend "incident #2?"

[url]www.frontsight.com/safety.htm[/url]

Multiply the condition codes times 100 to get the IQ of the folks who use each....

An AD is a definite posibility, depending how you carry.  I have a micro, which I often carry in my pocket - I don't wear jackets (note the State).  After practice and years of habit, I can carry with hammer down without loss of time on the draw.  My thumb sweeping over the hammer (and the right hammer) is a very natural action now.  I don't recommend it for defensive use unless you are VERY used to it, not even conscious of it.

So, start with condition 1, and practice.  Fiddle with the other with an UNLOADED weapon, please.

uhh, any thought to buying a better damn holster?

try Blade-Tech, much nicer design and construction IMHO.

Yep

The 1911 was meant to be carried cocked & locked.
But you must do your part. Practice [b]smoothly[/b] presenting the gun from your holster,  [b]finger off trigger ![/b] As the gun comes up to the target, your thumb should swipe the saftey off and place you finger inside the trigger guard.

You must also practice snapping the [b]saftey back on[/b], and placing [b]your finger outside the trigger guard[/b] as you lower the weapon.

Do it a zillion times until it becomes natural.

I had the same problem with my Fobus for the 1911. After some analysis it seems the front sight would catch on the front edge of the holster if my draw wasn't perfectly straight. Solved the problem by going to an Uncle Mike's. I still like my Fobus for my 4 inch 686, but the Uncle Mike's is a much better choice for 5 inch 1911's.

I carry my 1911 with no round in the chamber, and rack the  slide as I pull it out of the holster. It is only a few hundreths of a second slower, if you practie for a while. The round n the chamber and pulling the hammer back was a bit of a hassle, as my thumb doesn't really grip the hammer to well, and I ended up not locking the hammer once, and shooting the ground a few feet in front of my foot.

point 1: Did any of you read his post? In both conditions he mentioned, the weapon was cocked and locked. He was asking whether he should have the safety on or not. Are you guys defining "locked" differently than me? IMHO, if you don't have time to disengage the safety, you don't have time to point the weapon! Keep the safety on. Feel free to tape down that damn grip safety though.

point 2: I don't know much about holsters. Can some of you gurus out there tell me what the real good ones are? Fixer: I'll check into the blade-tech thing.

If you're gonna carry a 1911, then C&L'd is the way to go.  I've used a Milt Sparks SS2 for five years now without any problem a'tall.

As far as FOBUS holsters are concerned, FOBUS is an Israeli company (I think it is.  I may be wrong).  Israeli doctrine is to carry with an empty chamber, so there's no chance of an ND whether the holster is a high quality, hand-crafted sturdy piece of leather, or an injection molded piece of k-rap.

How do you define it? I define it as, "Having the safety on." That's also how Para Ordnance defines it in their ad, FWIW.

Point 1: Apparently you do have a different definition.  Hammer "cocked" and safety "locked" on is usually what "Cocked and locked" refers to with the Govt Model.  He mentioned Condtition one (which is commonly referred to as "cocked and locked"), and condition 0 (which would be cocked and unlocked).  The term "locked" is used diferently for diferent platforms (for instance it means a totally different thing in the Army now than it does with the .45 Auto).  On a .45 Auto it refers to the safety.  So the answer is "Yes, we read his post" and "Yes, our defintion of "locked" appears different than your's."  You are otherwise correct, the safety should be ON (i.e. LOCKED).

Point 2: Kramer, etc. really the top of the line holsters aren't going to be cheap, but you get what you pay for.  Also you can get away with a cheaper holster if you have a good belt.  An expensive holster is worthless on a cheap belt.  Buy a good belt, made for carrying a gun.  It will cost twice as much as a Wal-mart special, but it will make the difference in the real world.

Ross

Sorry, I'm just a crotchety old fart who likes to keep his semantics simple. This would explain my confusion. "Locked" to me has always meant that the weapon was, well, locked - as in in battery, with some mechanism in place to prvent the bolt from flying out of battery when as the round is fired - at leats, not unitl it is supposed to (except, of course, for blowback actions which have no locking mechanism and rely on the inertia from the bolt) In the case of a semi auto, the slide would be forward. Cocked meaning the hammer is, well, cocked.

Locked used to mean only one thing in firearms parlance. I guess this is kind of like the whole "clip" thing. Though I have admittedly gotten used to the odd looks from people when I tell them to go ahead and load the magazine on my Krag, 1903, or M1s and they look at me funny. If it is not a detachable mag, they are confused, and with the M1 it is usually, "the mag is already loaded."

Why must we insist on making the language so complicated?

Because that's language.  "lock and load" originally came from flintlock rifles.  It's hung around in various guises, but became pretty much part of American culture when John Wayne yells the command "LOCK AND LOAD!" to his squad in the landing craft in "The Sands of Iwo Jima".  In this case (actual USMC/Army command) referred to locking the M1's bolt to the back and loading an 8rd clip.  Today with the M16, the term still exists today, even though now it refers to "locking" a magazine in place and "loading" from that magazine (you have run at least one rifle range in your time I dare say, so the command shouldn't be unfamiliar-see this directly from FM 23-9).  
"[b]Lock[/b] one ten round magazine, [b]load[/b]"
"Is the line ready?"
"Ready on the right?"
"Ready on the left?"
"The firing line is ready"
"Firers, watch your lane"  

It just depends on the context as to what it means.  Oddly enough, I've never heard "locked" used in the way you use it, and I've been around a long time, sonny[;)]

Ross

Sorry Ross, but I beg to differ. "Lock" in the military has always meant the same thing - and that is where I got my definition. Why do you think locking lugs are called "locking" lugs?

To confirm I was not smoking crack, I looked it up here: [url]http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-22.9/c04.htm#4_2[/url]

"c.   Locking (Figure 4-5). As the bolt carrier group moves forward, the bolt is kept in its most forward position by the bolt cam pin riding in the guide channel in the upper receiver. Just before the bolt locking lugs make contact with the barrel extension, the bolt cam pin emerges from the guide channel. The pressure exerted by the contact of the bolt locking lugs and barrel extension causes the bolt cam pin to move along the cam track (located in the bolt carrier) in a counterclockwise direction, rotating the bolt locking lugs in line behind the barrel extension locking lugs. The rifle is ready to fire."


You are simply misinterpreting the range commands. "Load" is the command of execution. "Lock ..whatever..." is the preparatory command. It is no different than saying right, FACE. That command does not mean that "right" means straight ahead. Instead, it is the end state we will be at upon execution of the command.

Either that, or the people writing the commands were smoking crack (a distinct possibility, based on the other command to "lock and clear all weapons") If it were up to me, to avoid confusion, it would say, "[i]Insert[/i], one XXX magazine, LOAD (Since neither loading nor locking are accomplished until the bolt is sent forward).

There is a video out there that shows the IDF method for this.  I think it's called 'The Israeli Quickdraw Method' or something like that.  Anyway, the guy in the video can draw, load, and shoot his gun faster than most can just draw and shoot.  Pretty interesting stuff.

Regardless of whether it's a preperatory command, or command of execution, the command is still "lock...load" which differs from your definition of "lock" simply because it means different things for different weapons.

Your own example of:
"Cease fire, lock and clear your weapon." (Place the selector lever in the SAFE position.)

from your own reference would seem to bear me out.  You know full well that on that command the firer is going to "lock" the bolt to the rear and not in battery.

As further support for my position that the term means different things for different weapons...I present the range commands for the M14(FM 23-8):

"[b]lock[/b]; with one magazine of ten rounds,[b]load[/b]"
"Watch your lanes"
"Lock" here refers to the saftey switch on the M14.

Even farther back, just to beat a dead horse, the Duke didn't say:"Unlock and Load!" in the LVT[:D]

But since we're talking about the .45 M1911A1, the absolute proof is: (from FM 23-35, 1971...for the M1911A1)
"Table one, seven rounds"
"Load and [b]lock[/b]"
"Ready on the right"
"Ready on the left"
"Ready on the firing line"
"[b]Unlock your weapons[/b]"
"Watch your lane"

Since we are talking about the Govt model .45 auto, "cocked" is hammer back, and "locked" means safety [b]lock[/b] on.  If we were to follow through on the logic, "Cocked and locked" would be hammer back, safety on.

None of these commands would indicate that "locked" pertains to the weapon being in battery.  While certainly "locking lugs" and a "locked breech", etc. do exist, it's just a further example of a term meaning different things for differnt purposes.

Ross

The official "range commands" are written by bureacrats and safety ninjas. In that area, the Army is as guilty as any other organization in misusing an already defined term. The 8 fundamental functions of ALL modern small-arms (heck, all guns period) are, and always have been:

1) Feeding
2) Chambering
3) Locking*
4) Firing
5) Unlocking*
6) Extracting
7) Ejecting
8) Cocking

* not applicable to blow-back operated weapons

How these particular functions are accomplished my the M16 series of rifles is clearly explained in the link I gave. This is the part written by technical experts, not the morons who create terms like "up and down range" and that invent procedures like "rodding" of weapons that have caused more injuries and accidents than they have prevented.


Any other use of "lock" simply adds the confusion we have in this thread. The only exception I have ever seen in any technical writing is when a specific preposition follows the verb, as in "Lock [i]to the rear[/i]."

To get back to the issue of the M1911, I have dug up the applicable pistol FM here: [url]http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/23-35/FM23-_2.htm#REF2h2[/url]

The applicable portion on the operation of the M1911 follows. Emphasis is mine.

b. Operation.

(1) Each time a cartridge is fired, the parts inside the weapon function in a given order. This is known as the functioning cycle or cycle of operation.

(2) The cycle of operation of the weapon is divided into eight steps: feeding, chambering, [i][b]locking[/i][/b], firing, unlocking, extracting, ejecting, and cocking. The steps are listed in the order in which functioning occurs; however, more than one step may occur at the same time.

(3) A magazine containing ammunition is placed in the receiver. The slide is pulled fully to the rear and released. As the slide moves forward, it strips the top round from the magazine and pushes it into the chamber. The hammer remains in the cocked position, and the weapon is ready to fire.

(4) The weapon fires one round each time the trigger is pulled. Each time a cartridge is fired, the slide and barrel recoil or move a short distance [i][b]locked[/i][/b] together. This permits the bullet and expanding powder gases to escape from the muzzle before the unlocking is completed.

(5) The barrel then unlocks from the slide and continues to the rear, extracting the cartridge case from the chamber and ejecting it from the weapon. During this rearward movement the magazine feeds another cartridge, the recoil spring is compressed, and the hammer is cocked.

(6) At the end of the rearward movement, the recoil spring expands, forcing the slide forward, [i][b]locking[/b][/i] the barrel and slide together. The weapon is ready to fire again. The same cycle of operation continues until the ammunition is expended.

(7) As the last round is fired, the magazine spring exerts upward pressure on the magazine follower. The stop on the follower strikes the slide stop, forcing it into the recess on the bottom of the slide and locking the slide to the rear. This action indicates that the magazine is empty and aids in faster reloading.


FWIW, it is after step 6, above, that the weapon is "cocked and locked."

Cocked, Locked and ready to rock!

Keep the safety on as not to alarm others although it is not necessary with the grip safety.

Try these guys out:
[url]http://www.fistholsters.com/[/url]

Get a closed bottom on the holster to keep lint out of the barrel.

BigDozer66

Now, if I may quote from BOC:

Step into a world or strangers
Into a world of unknowns
Even friends are potential dangers
Secrets wound around their phones

Everybody else's got one
Packin' high caliber heat
If you don't wanna be dancin'
You don't dare miss the beat

Keep the hammer back
Hammer back
Don't keep my safety on

Keep the hammer back
Hammer back
'Til the livin' shadow's gone

Maybe at a Seven-Eleven
Maybe at a quick car jack
You'll verify there ain't a heaven
If you don't keep the hammer back

Keep the hammer back
Hammer back
Don't keep the safety on

Keep the hammer back
Hammer back
'Til the livin' shadow's gone

Keep the hammer back
Hammer back
Don't keep the safety on

Keep the hammer back
Hammer back
'Til the livin' shadow's gone

Hammer back
Hammer back
Don't keep the safety on

Keep the hammer back
Hammer back
'Til the livin' shadow's gone

Keep the hammer back
Hammer back
Don't keep the safety on

Keep the hammer back
Hammer back
'Til the livin' shadow's gone

Keep the hammer back
Hammer back
Hammer back
Hammer back

[i]-"Hammer Back," by Blue Oyster Cult[/i]

Since you are using a Jeff Cooper rifle quote as your sig may I suggest you follow his advice on the .45, the weapon that he is most often seen as being one of the modern experts in the care and feeding of.

As far as the hijacked discussion, I always heard "load and LOCK"  with loading referring to the movement of the round into the chamber (and potentially including inserting a magazine or clip) and lock referring to the actuation of the safety.

"Lock" like many other words has many meanings and some have changed or the common usage has changed.  I've never seen Condition One referring to  anything other than hammer back, chamber loaded and safety on.

I did see one instance where a Navy Senior Chief (twidget) tried to tell me I needed to put the safety on without the hammer back.  I asked him to show me how and then he finally realized it weren't possible.  I took one of the 45s from the ready service board, cleared it, showed him and the POOW that it was in fact cleared, popped the safety out with my keys and showed hin why it wouldn't., then put the piece back together.

You live in NV and you haven't been to Front Sight yet?  You ought to check in with Fingers, he can set you up with a certificate.  But you ask a good question.

The 1911 is designed to be carried cocked and locked, i.e. with the thumb safety "ON".

During your presentation your safety comes off***.  Same thing with long guns.  Since the safety comes off during the presentation, it costs you no time.

Furthermore, I know of at least one person who put a bullet down his leg holstering a 1911 with the safety off.  Don't do it!  If you don't want to deal with external safeties or long heavy double-action triggers, get a Glock.

*** Four universal rules of firearms safety apply.  ESPECIALLY "Never cover anything with the muzzle you are not willing to destroy (including your own body parts)" and "Keep your finger off the trigger until the sights are on the target".

Solution: Blade-tech and a good belt such as the Wilderness.  Smooth as silk.

ive Never heard of Condition 0
1911s are condition 1 or 3 ONLY
there really is no condition 2 SA 1911.

the israelis teach condition 3, hammer down, safety off, empty chamber, loaded mag.
they teach to bring the gun up to chest level, left hand grabs slide, while the right gun hand pushs the gun forward and racks the slide loading a round.

look, after reading all this, the bottom line is:

carry the 1911 style firearm "cocked and locked"

which means:

loaded mag, round in the chamber, thumb safety ON.

no need to fool around with holsters or taking a chance of shooting your leg off (cocked and unlocked).

as stated in an earlier post, it was "designed that way". that is true.

That must make Barney Fife the smartest man on earth.  One bullet in your shirt pocket is like what? Condition 6?
[img]http://wehaveneatstuff.safeshopper.com/images/b80vuzcq.jpg[/img]

Ben, The Emu
PS, i carry my 1911 in condition 1 and have a IQ around 150.

They don't.  That's why the number 1 on-the-job disability of LEOs is hole-in-foot disease.

Cocked & Locked is how I have been doing it for several years now.  HOWEVER, I use holsters with thumb straps.  I just like that added degree of safety.  As for draw speed, I don't claim to be an Ed McGivern (sp?) but years of practice has done me well and I don't think the thumbstrap hinders me any.

DO NOT carry it with the safety off.  

Adam-
Your contention is that "locked" can only mean one thing.  Mine is that it can mean several things.  It doesn't matter who wrote the commands or how confusing they are, those words ARE THERE.  That's where the term "cocked and locked" came from.  Locked can mean that it's in battery, you are correct there. It also can mean that the safety is on.  From the evidence presented, it's obvious that the term "lock" has more than one definition (even in the military), whether you believe it or not.

No one in this entire thread has used the term "cocked and locked" to mean anything but "hammer back, safety on".  No one except for you.  Think about it.

You've been presented evidence that the term "locked" means not only "in battery", but various other meanings to different weapon situations in the military.  The manuals may be worded poorly, or not depending on how you look at it.  Regardless the words are there, and no amount of dissmissal on your part is going to make them go away.

You've been presented evidence that "cocked and locked" means hammer back and safety on from a civillian source (gee, I wonder where they got that?), i.e. Para Ordnance.  If you read any of Cooper's work (even though I'm no fan), he explains the "conditions" as they have been used by everyone, save you, in this thread.

Finally, everyone else here uses the term in this thread to mean hammer back and safety on.  You're the only one refusing to, which is well within your rights to do so.  However the only confusion about the subject is your's.  

I believe I've shown where the term "cocked and locked" comes from.  It may not fit your definition, it may not be a correct usage, it may just be that everyone else is wrong and only you are right.  Like it or not though, this is where the term comes from.  It doesn't have to be correct usage to be common usage.

You can use whatever term you want to use, of course.  But if you're on a completely separate sheet of music than everyone else....well, let's just say the tune sounds different than the rest of the band.

Ross

Another vote for cocked and locked.

Oh, and get rid of that piece of shit holster too.  I suggest Blade-Tec, Comp-Tac, or G-Code.  I just bought a G-Code for a government model and it is awesome!  Very comfortable, and quite fast (it's the paddle model with 15 degree cant).

Anybody using a Milt Sparks IWB w/a 1911?

Condition 1.  Only.  If the holster doesn't work well, you really should get another holster.

OH, god no, I have been doing it the same way the israelsis have, damn it. I am definitaly going for cocked and with the safety on. Damn it, I am left handed without the ambi safety, now I have to go and buy a new safety.

Ive been carrying a full size all steel 1911 concealed in a Sparks Versa-max II for several years.  I can literally hide it under a t-shirt. I ordered mine in horsehide as thats my prefered "organic" holster material.

You people that carry in Condition 3 crack me up.

Is that why your nick is LUMPY???[shock]

That could be very dangerous to you if you ever get one of those wide mouthed rounds hung up on the barrel ramp!

Even if you bump the mag and it still loads you have lost precious seconds!

Its yours to carry how you wish but my vote is to have one allready in the pipe!

 Bob  [:D]