What is your opinion on using drugs recreationally?
Excluding severe “mind altering” drugs like PCP and LSD, I am mainly concerned with mood or perception altering drugs like Ecstasy, Pot, up to and including opiates.
Outside the libertarian impulse many gun owners have, does anyone else here believe that certain drugs can expand horizons?

Fishing for some opinion from gun owners...

What is your opinion on using drugs recreationally?
Excluding severe “mind altering” drugs like PCP and LSD, I am mainly concerned with mood or perception altering drugs like Ecstasy, Pot, up to and including opiates.
Outside the libertarian impulse many gun owners have, does anyone else here believe that certain drugs can expand horizons? I for sure do (and I know I’ll probably catch hell for it [;)] )
Opinions on drugs amongst some gun owners sometimes show very clearly how powerful the indoctrination process is.
Logically, there is no practical inebriating difference between a joint (illegal) and a few shots of Wild Turkey (legal), just as there isn’t much greater threat posed by an M16 than there is from an AR15. In the end, one is really no different than the other when it comes to the actual application. But since alcohol is “legal” and drugs are “illegal” and we all have been told they are “bad” our entire lives, many gun owners subscribe to the very mindless logic antigunners purvey.

Just wondering what the opinion is here.
The drug issue amongst gun owners shows very clearly how powerful the indoctrination process is.
Logically, there is no practical inebriating difference between a joint (illegal) and a few shots of Wild Turkey (legal), just as there isn’t much greater threat posed by an M16 (heavily restricted) than there is from an AR15 (not heavily restrictred).

In the end, one is really no different than the other when it comes to the actual application. But since alcohol is “legal” and drugs are “illegal” and we all have been told they are “bad” our entire lives, many gun owners subscribe to the very mindless logic antigunners purvey.

Just wondering what the opinion is here.

Were you stoned when you typed this?
It seems that you keep keep keep repeating yourself....

Dude, I think you have had enough drugs already. I think it's starting to affect your ability to have enough drugs already.  I think it's starting to already.  Dude.


Edited to add:  

Dude, I think you have had enough drugs already. I think it's starting to affect your ability to have enough drugs already.  I think it's starting to already.  Dude.

It appears you were indulging when you typed your post.

Why are you asking?

Why are you asking?

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!! [:D]
That must've happened when I C&P's from spell check .

Too damn funny.

Too damn funny.

I don't take them, I won't take them. I don't reccomend that anyone else use them. I don't think they should be illegal. You should be able to walk into your local drug store and purchase what ever you want.

Tax it and FIX MY ROADS.

Drugs
Are
Really
Exciting

I think drugs are some of the neatest things about the world.  I find almost everything about them interesting. Part of the reason why is because they're considered so "taboo" or "bad" by most of society.  

As for expanding consciousness, they can in a way.  Perception and thoughts get set into familiar and fixed ways.  You come to believe that this description of the world IS how it really is.  Powerful drugs can knock you out of those set tracks for a little bit. It's profound at first, but the returns of those experiences dimish very rapidly.

A fictional description of what I'm talking about is well described in the book "Journey to Ixtlan" by Carlos Castaneda.

You dont need drugs to alter or expand consciousness, but doing so without them requires a lot of work and discipline that most people dont have.

"Now, I want you to blow into this tube until this little buzzer sounds-off"

dumbasses do drugs
dumbasses do drugs
dumbasses do drugs
dumbasses do drugs
dumbasses do drugs

You don't need an AK47 or an UZI to hunt with
You don't need an AK47 or an UZI to hunt with
You don't need an AK47 or an UZI to hunt with
You don't need an AK47 or an UZI to hunt with


Those two sayings both share a common thread.
They are programmed responses.

with the drugs part, nothing to do with 'programmed' just common sense

Pot and alcohol are ok, pot is probably better for a person than alcohol.

My professional opinion, and I professionaly handle more drugs in a week and deal with more drug users in a day than most see in a lifetime, is that all drugs should be 100% legal for possession and use, including so called "hard drugs" like Cocaine Base (crack) and Methamphetamine (Speed). I attach no moral significvance to drugs. No drug is inherently "good" or "bad".  

However the punishment for driving under the influence of them should be death.

All of this is a direct result of drugs being illegal and thus highly profitable.  When was the last time you heard of liquor dealers shooting it out in a turf war?  The only time I've ever heard of anything like it was back during Prohibition, when alcohol was illegal and thus highly profitable. Legalize it so it can be regulated and taxed.

I haven't done a single drug (other than alcohol) in more than ten years. When I was in college, I tried acid a few times. It was good acid. Really good. All I can say is that if you haven't tried acid, there's nothing that I can tell you that can adequately describe it. Un-frickin-real.

In college I was drunk about 5 nights a week...real drunk. I drove far too often - as did everyone. I was far more dangerous driving drunk than I was sitting at home staring at ceiling tiles while tripping on acid.

I know it's pretty bad to say this, but I'm glad I tried it. (ALTHOUGH I DON'T ENCOURAGE ANYONE TO TRY IT) It really shows how fragile human consciousness is, how fleeting reality is. As in the Matrix, reality is just electrical impulses going through your mind. LSD makes that shockingly clear.

i could live with that!

Ahhh yes, LSD! Its good the first 2 times, but once you see the unicorns in the forest you need to stop. True story :(

Question: Do you think you and society would have been better off if we had locked you away for twenty years or so because of your bad habits?



So how do we tell the difference between the expanded horizons you claim from Buddhism and those that others claim from LSD?



OK, you are wrong there. First, the currently illegal drugs were not a major social problem until they were made illegal. You can read the history of that subject at [url]http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/cu/cumenu.htm[/url] Nearly all of the current problems happened as a direct result of the prohibition laws. See the first several chapters of that book for a good short history.

For another excellent and funny history of the laws see [url]http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/whiteb1.htm[/url]

In short, the drug laws were the product of racism, ignorance, and nonsense.

And BTW, you are wrong about places like Singapore having solved the problem. In the first place, the government of Singapore kills more people for drug offenses than the drugs kill themselves. It ought to be obvious that is not a good solution.  In the second place, they continue to have a serious drug abuse problem. The reason is that, of all the methods of dealing with drug abuse, law enforcement is the least cost-effective. (See the Rand Corp website for research on that topic or see Major Studies of Drugs and Drug Policy at [url]http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer[/url]



Just like during alcohol prohibition, they are due to the laws that made drugs more valuable than gold. See the references above. If you want more, just ask. I have a ton of them besides that.  For example, if you want to read some juicy quotes about the effects of alcohol prohibition on crime see [url]http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/debate/miranda_devine.htm[.url]  Don't be surprised if a lot of that info there sounds exactly like the results of our modern drug war.



Read the book I linked above. Among other things, it points out that cocaine was freely available without any restrictions at one time. It was even included in Coca-Cola, and Pepsi-Cola, and they sold cocaine cheroots (crack). Kids could buy it without restrictions and producers didn't even have to put the contents on the label. Even under those extreme conditions we didn't have the problems we have today.

And, if you care to read much of the history, you will find that gun control laws are largely the product of the effects of drug prohibition. The first and best example was the National Firearms Act of 1933 that immediately followed the gang warfare of alcohol prohibition.

In short, if you are a gun owner and you support drug prohibition then you are shooting your right to own guns in the foot.

As I have always said, the people who support gun prohibition share something in common with the people who support drug prohibition. Neither one of them knows anything about the subject. You can prove that in both cases in a matter of minutes by just asking them a few simple questions about the subject. Wanna try?

If I could actually conduct my life, and do LSD every single day of it, I would.  I used to, back in the day, like it THAT much.  No drug is good or bad, it is all set and setting.  There is indeed a time and place for 'most everything, and the "Drugs are bad, mmkay" response is pure pablum.   Man oh man, do I miss dropping good, clean, occasionally Owsley concocted LSD.  

Did most all of them back in hs/college.

They are fun if you don't abuse em.  Its not worth the hassle and cost to my freedom to do them anymore.  But if I am at a party and someone passes a joint I might puff it, but not inhale [}:D]

You are unusual then. The research shows that while many people with experiment with LSD, very few take it for more than a couple of years at most. The most common explanation is that they found it interesting but not interesting or fun enough to continue using on a regular basis. Twelve hours is a long time to be stoned that bad, not like the mild buzz one would get from a couple of beers.

Just for the record, the research was also unable to establish any real harm done to anyone by taking LSD. Some people had bad experiences, but those were rare, and there weren't any long-term effects that could be tied to LSD. Even the "enlightment" that some claimed from it didn't seem to last.

You can find a good discussion of it at [url]http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/cu/cumenu.htm[/url]

[img]http://home.arcor.de/theis.klussmeier/a_trailer/200207/c_the_crocodile_hunter.jpg[/img]
and here we see the disgusting JBT in action

krikey

these are imported pests not natural to the USA
they've become a big problem lately

Mind altering chemicals and weapons?
Oh yeah, THATS responsible.

They won't come and kick in my door, arrest me, and take my weapons becase I'm in possesion of "Budweiser".

This man knows what I'm talking about.

I have done most drugs out there.  I enjoyed most some alot more then others.  But that was some time ago.  They shouldn't be illegal but parents should try to teach there kids to stay away from them.  I have many exfriends that are addicts and havn't quit or well remind me to much of the good old days.  Basicly Drugs are bad BUT a WHOLE LOTA FUN.

Did anyone recommend handling weapons while intoxicated? How about drunk driving?

Just a tip -- I have never met anyone who suggested any change in any law that would allow anyone to pose a hazard to anyone else, while intoxicated, or not, on anything. That is, except silly prohibitionists trying to set up a straw man argument.



Which ought to make you question the drug laws right there because alcohol is the only drug with any real connection to drug-induced violence. See "Psychoactive Substances and Violence" US DOJ, Feb. 1994 at [url]http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/govpubs/psycviol.htm[/url]

Just a little quiz of everyone's knowledge of the subject.

Can anyone here name the only society in human history that DID NOT use drugs recreationally?

If you can name the society, then you know why.

[ROFL2][party]

[lol]

Use of any psychotropic substance is obviously a monumentally stupid thing to do.  

I do hold the Libertarian viewpoint on the subject, however.  You should have the freedom to be a total fuckhead if that's really what you want to do.  But that doesn't extend to offering that shit to minors.  That should draw the death penalty.

I hold an equally dim view of alcohol.

CJ

A lot of the early advances in computing were made by guys tripping on LSD.  Steve Jobs(founder of apple, GUI, etc) has admitted that he used LSD to help him in the early days of apple.  He is one example, there are a lot more out there.

My question is cmjohnson, is Steve Jobs monumentally stupid if LSD helped make him a billionaire????

Like Mountain Dew, Coca-Cola, coffee, tea, chocolate, etc. I suppose. I am relieved to hear that you don't do anything that might feel good.



So someone who gives their kid a glass of wine ought to be killed? That would wipe out most of Europe, and a good part of the US.

Just a hint here, CMJ -- the majority of kids experiment with drugs before they reach maturity. Most of them don't wind up with any problems as a result. Psychological studies show that those kids who do experiment with drugs are, overall, pyschologically healthier than those who don't. The reason is that experimentation with lots of things is a sign of good, healthy development and those who are afraid to experiment with new things are depriving themselves of valuable life experiences. I am not recommending drugs for kids, just telling you that for the vast majority of them, drugs are not a major disaster. Most of them will get over it and ultimately realize that life is better when you are sober most of the time.

Let us also note that most of the founders of Microsoft were dedicated pot smokers (and who knows what else) as well.

I think people who are currently using drugs or have recently used drugs almost always feel this way.  But once they've been clean for several years, they realize how ridiculous this claim is.  The only thing drugs do is cloud your thoughts, without your knowledge.  And it's amazing how effective they are at that.

I have met a few tens of thousands of them myself. My own informal survey doesn't agree with you. My research shows that the majority of them do it for the same reason they shoot guns, have sex, or play golf -- for them it feels good. If you care to read the major research on the subject, you will find that is probably the best explanation.



It is no more ridiculous than claiming that religion expands your horizons. If you can explain how the "enlightenment" gained from a "religious experience" is any different than the "enlightment" some people claim from getting stoned, I would love to hear it.

I take it you have never dropped acid sr15.

You have no idea what you are talking about until you have dropped a few tabs of lsd ;)

I think you're twisting the facts a little bit.  Steve Jobs may have experimented/used LSD, but I don't think it helped him with computer developement.  I seriously doubt that LSD "helped make him a billionaire."

Um Isnt there a question on the yellow form about drug use?  So your saying you lied on an official govt document.  Does not bode well for you!

As to Tom Jefferson's comments about the drug war, Im making too much money fighting the war for it to end, If that makes me stupid, Then Stupid be me.

Apparently it didn't hurt him much, did it? If you are looking for famous and successful people who claimed that their drug use actually helped them, there are more than a few. Carl Sagan is one.

Keep living the lie man.  Belive what you want to believe.  I take it you are too lazy to do a google search.

http://www.geocities.com/psychedelics101/huxleyshulgins3.html

Oh trust me, I know exactly what I'm talking about.  Start doing 5-10 hits a week for a couple of years, get clean for 12 years, and then we'll compare notes.

thats abuse man.  No way I could take coming down off lsd that often ;)

I didn't say it hurt him, I just said I didn't think it helped him with his career.  I don't think that drugs help anyone do anything better, especially long term.

[img]http://www.angelfire.com/yt/scully/images/sp5.jpg[/img]