Several of us were using our UC type vehicles to snag a guy on felony warrants (Assault 1st and Discharging a Firearm into an Occupied Dwelling) today. We set him up to come meet a girl he knew who has been helping us out on some stuff. This guy has ran (in cars and on foot), fought, kicked patrol car windows out, and generally raised all kinds of hell in our county for years.

Well we jump him as he is walking up to her car and he takes off. I head him off and wrap him up and we go to the ground. What my "target fixation" prevented me from seeing was the fact that one of our K-9 Handlers had let his crazy assed Malinois loose on the guy. About the time I hit him, so did the dog. We were all three on the ground before I realized the dog was in the mix and his crazed eyes were right in my face.

Luckily, he latched onto the BG and not your friendly neighborhood Investigator. That thing was tearing him a new asshole and man, let me tell you I scrambled out of that "dog pile" like a little bitch, scurrying across the ground! That particular dog gets the freaking Devil in his eyes when he is on a bite. I’ve seen it before, just not so close!

Scary stuff! The intimidation factor alone is nearly overwhelming. Those dogs earn their worth. You’d be amazed at how often they are used for SAR, tracking, dope detection and bite work.

The handler said he just knew his dog was gonna get me good. I got razzed pretty bad because we had just had a training session about tactical work using the dogs…

Good dog! Bad cop!

The last dog I handled in the military was a Belgian Malinois, and the one obedience exercise that he absolutely [b]refused[/b] to perform was a standoff (where the dog is released on attack, but called back before he gets a bite.)  That dog's attitude was, "By God, if you didn't want me to bite his ass, you shouldn't have let me off the leash!"

I work a Mal every day on the job. I love that dog. Awesome working dogs.

Everyone says I have the best looking German Shepherd they have ever seen.. [rolleyes]

One thing that the Mals have are absolutely [b]incredible[/b] noses.  Mine was a narcotics detector, and you couldn't hide shit from him.  We used to spend hours coming up with all kinds of hellish exercises, but he found the drugs every time, without fail.

my last dawg was a rescued Tervureen... basicly a long coated Malinois... GREAT dawgs!

I always get a good laugh at the officers who think these police dogs can tell that anyone in uniform is a good guy and therefore won't get bit and end up getting bit in just for moving the wrong way while in the station.  

I stay away from them dogs myself but it's nice to have them when you got a terd running from you.  

[img]http://www.rpiv8.com/Gallery-2/T-shit-bitehard.jpg[/img]

just a few weeks ago a K-9 in Memphis had to be killed because he was attacking other leo's before his handler could get to him. they were pretty pissed about that

My second year in college the police were serving a warrent on this guy, I was at a friends house about a block away. We were on our way to work(both of us were editors for the school's paper) and we were walking by when the police showed up. So we stuck around. The house was a duplex upper/lower. They had to go to the upper, well when they went in the door the guy sprayed two officers down with some flamable liquid and tossed a match. the officers came down, and durring all the comotion to get these guys put out one of the K9 handlers was bit in the ass by his dog. They eventually got the guy out. And I for one would not have blamed any one of those officers for opennen a  can of whoopass on him. Which they did not.

This dog gets freaking crazed when he is training. Just taking the bite suit out of the trunk gets him razzed. I have seen the handler have to damn near choke the thing out to get him to release. If he gets a running start he hits HIGH everytime. I get tempted to wear the suit just for the experience... but then pussitis wells up!

He is a damn good dope dog and tracker but biting his his favorite it appears. That dog's motto is GET SOME! Like Nimrod said he rarely stops if he is called off before making contact. The handler said he is like the terminator... he can not be recalled!

It is fun to watch him work. About 3 months ago were tracking a guy who got ran off from an anhydrous amonia tank he was trying to steal from. We lost sight of the dog for a minute and we hear him hit the river. About the time we get to the bank he has caught up with the BG in the middle of the river and is trying to get a bite in! He got one or two on the guy before he finally came back to us. The BG gave up. I have never even heard of anything like it.

We have 2 dogs for an 80 man department... Sure wish we could get a few more.

Glad you didn't get torn up in the encounter, FiveO.  But...

Are you actually proud of the fact that a K-9 handler can't even recall his own damn dog?  I'm not at all familiar with that dog breed, but it sounds like both the dog and the handler need some remedial training.

Yeah, it's a good thing you did not have to defend yourself.  It would have been a shame for you to get sent to prison for 5-10 years for assaulting a police officer.  

Oh, I forgot!  Only us "civilians" are subject to THAT law.  When officer friendly knocks the fuck out of some beastie, all is good in the world.  But if one of us insignificant peons does the same thing to an out of control K-9 we can expect to spend a nice long holiday at club fed with Mustafa the ass mangler.  

Nice double standard.

Defcon, yeah, I'll give it a try... One of my fellow Inv.s wore the suit during a demo for a Citizen's Police Academy and he got knocked down so hard he tore his ACL. He JUST got back to work after surgery and 4 months on the couch. Other than that it looks fun...  [:D]

Yankee, when you let a dog off of his lead and send him on a bite about 25% cannot be stopped. You do not release the dog from his lead unless the offense/charge and use of force guide lines warrants that level of force. If the person complies in the last second of a chase/fight/altercation/stand off then fuck him. But I am an asshole so your opinion may vary.

AS far as him not releasing you did note that I was talking about the suit right? It is "play" for him. He comes off a real bite as easily as most other dogs.

They are animals, not machines you know? That's part of it.

Peaches, you know, I am not going to entertain your BS. Start you own thread if you wanna piss and moan. You obviously already know your place. You do not need me reminding you.

Nice story with a good ending.

I hate dog bites, hell I hate people bites too.

I love to watch a GOOD dog work.

COME OUT OR WE ARE SENDING IN THE DOG ! teeheee [:d]

I think the K9s force should be doubled.  

With an attitude like that Five0, you will do nothing but foster a deeper mistrust between the law abiding citizens who value their freedom from JBT's charading as Peace Officers, and commiting crimes in the name of Justice.  

If the handler does not maintain complete control over the animal at all times, then criminal neglegence charges should be filed.  A person who can not control a weapon 25% of the time has absolutely no business handling the weapon.  

If you were already physicaly in contact with the BG, then why did officer Fife release an animal with a known reputation for being uncontrolable when in that type of situation?  Looks like piss poor judgement and excessive force was used in this situation.  

And you are correct. I do know my place.  You are my public servent.  I suggest you don't forget who your Masters are.

DPeacher has a valid point.

And having a dog bite and maul a running criminal is excessive force IMHO.

Why is a dog a cop if I kill it but just a tool if a Leo kills it?

Double standard.

Sgtar15

Forget it, they stopped working for us years ago, now all they can do is accept the brainwashing and work against us.

Well, maybe this is gonna get interesting. ibtl

I had a shepard that was military trained, (insert long story here). He was about 5-6 when I got him. For some reason cops were attracted to him. He HATED uniforms, and the cops would walk right up to him in the back of my truck to pat him, despite my warnings. Happened three times before word got around to the local cops. You should have seen the look of glee on that dogs face when he saw a cop approach. He did not signal his intentions, he just nailed them!!

Anyone got a pic handy of a Malinois?? I wonder if my "Pluto" was one.

Yes, he sure does.  I agree entirely with his identification of the double standard, as well as the "tool out of control 25% of the time" analogy. -- but ideas like these won't go over very well with the Blue mindset.

malinois.com
[img]http://www.malinois.com/otvitosha/carostand.jpg[/img]

He's not a baddog, he's just a dog looking for some fun [:D]

OK, I would rather not get in a pissing match with all of you "wronged, oppressed people" so I will just clarify a few points.

Peachy, I am known on this board and if you have read many of my posts you would know that I am pretty mild. Assertive when I am right and willing to support my opinions, but pretty mild. I, like everyone else, get tired of fending off BS whining. My comments were mainly sarcastic but the point was made. I am sorry you feel "insignificant."

Dogs are animals. Animals are never 100%. Period. Take up the use of LE dogs with your Congressman or someone.

Reread my account. I was not in physical contact when the dog was released. It is in black and white, no further elaboration is needed. Piss poor inerpretation of the written word on your part.

Sgtar, the subject is a violent felon known to be armed. The use of the dog was 10000% acceptable.

Folks I was just telling what I thoought was an interesting story about a unique thing that happened to me. Sorry if I made some of you upset.

First off, I never said that you were an asshole, nor do I believe that you are an asshole, even though you seem to be trying very hard to prove me wrong about that.

25 percent failure in following the handler's commands sounds pretty damn pathetic.  If my shep fails to follow commands immediately (barring such things as traffic noise, etc.), we go back to the beginning of obedience training.  I simply won't tolerate a dog who obeys 75 percent of the time.  Nor will I get any slack should my dog bite somebody, even somebody trespassing on my own property.  



I understand completely that the dog thinks of it as "play".  That's how dogs think.  Surprising that the K-9 handler considers what should be training as play-time, too.

To quote AC/DC - [b]Who made who?[/b]



I have owned sheps and dobies...I am fully aware that they are not machines.  I'm also aware of my responsibilities as the owner of an animal capable of inflicting serious physical injury.  Which is why I wouldn't (and won't) accept a 75 percent compliance rate for commands I give to my dog and be satisfied with it.

Thanks baddog. Pluto wasn't a malinois, he had the tan coloring. Lot bigger than the one in the photo. I'd guess Pluto was close to 140 lbs.

No fat!!!

Five0, I don't care if you have more posts then ETH, drink beer with the Avila's every weekend, and have your likeness hanging in more places then the FBI's 10 most wanted.  Post cockamayme bull shit and I will call you on it, regardless of how well you are "known" on this board or anywhere else.  And as far as "supporting" your opinions is concerned, you have offered NOTHING but retoric and doublespeak for the defense of your opinion in this thread.

If you can't stand the heat in the GD forum, or don't have the mental capacity and debating skills to prove that a double standard for Law Enforcment DOES NOT EXIST in this country, where "Equal Protection Under The Law" is the supreme standard of the land, then take your weak drivle over to the "Brothers Of The Shield" forum.  There, you can rest assured, I will not humble your actions.  Post it here, and you can stand the fuck by.

What I do care about is the cavalier "we are better then the society we serve, and the law doesn't apply to us" set of double standards flaunted by many in the law enforcement profession.  What is even more disgusting is when the so called honorable members of your profession blindly toe the thin blue line and cover for the thugs they call collegues.

If you and the dog reached the suspect at the same time.  This means one of two things.  Either you should have more gold medals for sprinting then Eric Johnson and Jesse Owens combined, or the K-9 handlers judgement to release the dog was suspect at best.  

Are you implying that you had the suspect on the ground but did not have control of the situation and that he K-9 was required to stop the threat?  

That the suspect was such a threat to you and the other officers present that deadly force with a weapon, that by your own admission can NOT be controlled 25% of the time in that exact situation, was 10000% justified?  

And if so, why did you not have one of your own weapons drawn, in such dire circumstances?

If having the K-9 bite the suspect was justified, why didn't you employ pepper spray, shoot, or strike the suspect with a baton?  All of which CAN be controlled 100% of the time.

Were any deadly weapons found on the suspect?

Did the suspect make any threatening moves towards you or anyone else?  Or, did the suspect flee from a potentially deadly encounter with a "crazy assed Malinois" that "gets the Devil in his eyes when he is on the bite".

Would it not be reasonable to assume that under those circumstances that the "fight or flight" reaction of the suspect would be in full swing and should have been expected by the LEO's who were sent to apprehend the suspect?

By using your logic of "the suspect was a violent felon known to be armed" is justification for the use of deadly force, should I, or anyone else for that matter, apply that same logic everytime we encounter a LEO?  I mean, how are we supposed to KNOW which ones are the good cops and which ones are thugs with a badge?

Would I be justified in letting my Boxer bite a LEO under those circumstances?  And if not, then tell me which circumstances would justify those actions.

Last time I checked, LEO's were there to apprehend the suspect, not administer the punishment.

On a side note, if refering to me as "peachy" is the best you can do to belittle me, then you need to get a few of your friends to give you some help.  I'm David Peacher, my friends call me Dave.  You can refer to me by my board name, or Mr. Peacher, whichever you prefer.  I assume your "professional" demeanor will take over, or should I refer to you, in kind, as FiveBlowTheCockSuckingFag?

DING DING DING DING DING.........and the ref calls a stop to the fight at 1 minute 37 seconds in the first round. TKO by DPeacher.
Somebody call the friggin paramedics.

I had hoped to get a reply from Five0 by now.  I'll wait a while longer for him to answer my questions......If he can.  

BTT

DePeacher, that was well said, so well said I fear you have chased him off in shame.  You can not argue with a man who is right kinda thing. Well done.

BTT One more time.  Just to see if he has what it takes to defend his position.  I don't think he can, but never let it be said I did not give him a chance.

Allrighty. Sorry, I have been busy; I have put a couple of deserving souls in jail and played with my daughter this day. That said, the thought of you checking the thread every few minutes has made me chuckle a few times. Thanks for that.

My point regarding my history on this board was simply that my positions are known and I have argued and debated them until I am blue in the face. As I stated many times, I was telling a story. I did not intend the discussion to go the way you took it. Naive on my part, perhaps. I have long since bowed out of fruitless diatribes, defending what is a proud profession, with people of your type. You have your opinion and I am sure it makes you popular at parties.

I assure you, you are not capable of "humbling my actions." That is not a concern of mine.

Therefore I do not intend on arguing about "THE DOUBLE STANDARD." There is one, no doubt. There are double standards in every aspect of life. It is human nature. I am part of a profession whose obligations to society require that we be deemed with certain powers and authorities. That is the way it is. Yes one cop will often cut another one some slack on a speeding ticket. Get over it. That is life. A judge favors a party in a lawsuit because he is on the Bar, a man gets a job because he went to the same school as the boss, kids in school form cliques and ostracize others, a man is a stud, a woman a whore, Wal Mart employees get a discount... I mean it is endless. There were double standards in the USMC, no doubt.

If you deny that it is human nature and contend it is more systematic or formalized in LE than in other realms then so be it. You have your views from outside, I have mine from inside.

If you have a problem with human nature, then go live in the woods or better yet, cap yourself and take it up with God. He, by the way, has a double standard as well.

Also, I have never denied that there are many asshole cops. Know a bunch of 'em. I know more truly good guys but I doubt you would acknowledge that. Assholes are everywhere. Assholes with authority and solemn duties stand out more and even non-assholes are seen as assholes by little people who simply do not like others with any power, perceived or otherwise, over them. Bosses, teachers, preachers, umpires, wives, mothers, fathers, WTF ever. Again, human nature.

Anyway, I posted a story about an event and I will clarify some thing you seem to have not been able to follow...

[b]"If you and the dog reached the suspect at the same time. This means one of two things. Either you should have more gold medals for sprinting then Eric Johnson and Jesse Owens combined, or the K-9 handler’s judgment to release the dog was suspect at best." [/b]

It may mean more than your "two things", Skippy. I said "I headed him off." I was perpendicular to his path and he did not see me until the last second, the dog handler was in line behind the BG and did not see me until I came from between my Explorer and a truck by which time the dog had been released. Do you really think that your PERCEPTION of what happened out there is that flawless based on my quick narration? You are wrong there.

[b]"Are you implying that you had the suspect on the ground but did not have control of the situation and that he K-9 was required to stop the threat?" [/b]

As said the first time around, "About the time I hit him, so did the dog." READING and UNDERSTANDING is important and would save us all time. I do hope you do not require additional explanation. I will say that there are many men more bad assed than me. A "man on the ground" does not always mean "having control."

Here we get just dumb: [b]"That the suspect was such a threat to you and the other officers present that deadly force with a weapon, that by your own admission can NOT be controlled 25% of the time in that exact situation, was 10000% justified?

And if so, why did you not have one of your own weapons drawn, in such dire circumstances?

If having the K-9 bite the suspect was justified, why didn't you employ pepper spray, shoot, or strike the suspect with a baton? All of which CAN be controlled 100% of the time." [/b]

1. A LE dog is not deadly force. At least not in my state.

2. Weapons were drawn. Please let me point something out to you that may save your life one day, brandishing a weapon on someone does not always cause them to obey your orders. I have seen rookie cops absolutely SHOCKED that a BG kept running/fighting/threatening after a verbal order with weapons drawn failed to work. This would be a totally stupid question but perhaps you have never been in that set of circumstances.

3. Pepper spray and baton strikes would have been fully appropriate and would have been used gladly had any Deputy or Investigator had closer contact with the BG. We did not. Shooting him was not an option as he was not threatening our lives or the lives of others. Simple "Use of Force" stuff here.

[b]"Were any deadly weapons found on the suspect?"[/b]

No. Makes not one shred of a difference.

[b]"Did the suspect make any threatening moves towards you or anyone else? Or, did the suspect flee from a potentially deadly encounter with a "crazy assed Malinois" that "gets the Devil in his eyes when he is on the bite"."[/b]

No. He ran when he saw the Po Po. We bailed and shit happened. Shit does that sometimes.

[b]"Would it not be reasonable to assume that under those circumstances that the "fight or flight" reaction of the suspect would be in full swing and should have been expected by the LEO's who were sent to apprehend the suspect?"[/b]

Fully reasonable and anticipated. He ran. We figured he would. We caught him. We knew we would. Always the first with the most. “Fight or flight” during an arrest gets people hurt. Thankfully, it is usually the BG. We minimized potential complications with proper selection of time and place. You can never fully control a situation like that. Well, maybe YOU can, cause you 'da man and all, apparently.

[b]"By using your logic of "the suspect was a violent felon known to be armed" is justification for the use of deadly force, should I, or anyone else for that matter, apply that same logic everytime we encounter a LEO?" [/b]

It is not justification for deadly force but go ahead, be my guest.

[b]"Would I be justified in letting my Boxer bite a LEO under those circumstances? And if not, then tell me which circumstances would justify those actions."[/b]

Huh?

[b]"Last time I checked, LEO's were there to apprehend the suspect, not administer the punishment."[/b]

WE HAVE A WINNER! You are correct. We were there to apprehend him. We used an acceptable amount of force in doing so and his injuries (surprisingly minor, BTW) were his fault and a result of his actions. Actions which started when he beat up his wife and pistol whipped her father, drove to HIS OWN HOUSE where his two kids were and shot the place up (because they could never be happy without him anyway), and finally ran from us when we attempted to put the fucking piece of shit in jail where he belongs. His punishment will come at the hands of one of our stern assed Judges, the Alabama Department of Corrections and hopefully soon, God Almighty. If he hurt a few days so be it.

[b]"...or should I refer to you, in kind, as FiveBlowTheCockSuckingFag"[/b]

Well, dunno what to say about that other than if it makes you feel good inside, call me what you will. Hell, perhaps you are into that kind of shit.

Thanks for "giving me the chance."

45 minutes of my life I will never get back.

  Sounds to me you had the guy without  the "crazy assed" uncontrolable dog!
 Shit like this makes me root for the bad guys.
 And you called him a "good dog",perhaps you are giving him points for entertainment value.

And that is the whole point I have been trying to make, Five0.  I see no reason for the K-9 to have been unleashed.  IMNSHO...The dog handler used poor judgement in this situation, given the facts presented here.

I think it's great that the BG was caught!  I think YOU did a great job!  I wouldn't trust your K-9 handler for a second!    

Now here is a straight forward question.  You said that when this K-9 gets a running start he hits HIGH every time.  Does that mean the dog goes for the face and throat?

And as for the "type" of person I am, well you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover.  you would be fortunate to have a person of my "type" as a next door neighbor.  I have a clear sense of what is right and wrong and the moral conviction to stand up to what is wrong.  I will agree that Law Enforcement is a proud profession, however it's luster is somewhat tarnished due to quite a number of politicians in uniform and a few thugs with badges.  

You probably think I'm anti cop.  But that would be FAR from the mark.  It's just that there have been way to many miscarrages of justice and abuse of power by the LEO community for me to be fully trusting of them.  When I see a "Bad Guy" I KNOW exactly where I stand with him.  But with a cop, you just don't know if they are honorable or not, but you are forced to comply with their demands.  If they are honorable, and most likely they are, then everything will be OK.  But if you get a thug with a badge, you then have a bad guy with the power of the Courts to back him up.  I hear what you are saying about the rest of the worlds professions having their fair share of thugs too, and I agree.  But a boss, teacher, preacher, umpire, can't put put me in jail.  And that is why I will beat this dead horse......cops hold a very special place of public trust.  Their actions on and off duty must be beyond reproach or that trust will be broken for a long long time.

Thanks for the engaging debate Five0!

[b]"I see no reason for the K-9 to have been unleashed. IMNSHO...The dog handler used poor judgement in this situation, given the facts presented here."[/b]

I don't see it. Had I not been in just the right place we would have had a possibly lengthy foot pursuit followed by who knows what. This guy is fast. There was an even chance of him making it to the wood line. He had got a fair jump on us. He just had to run, we had to unass our vehicles.

Fuck a fair fight. This ain't the movies. If I have my way, I will have a baton in a fist fight, a pistol in a knife fight, a rifle in a pistol fight and a GD ERT team in a rifle fight. The dog insured that the BG went to jail. Overkill? I do not think so but if it is then he can sue me. It would not be the first time.

The mistake made that day was mine. I simply forgot about the damned dog and my reflexes sent me after the guy. Had I gotten bitten I would have no one to blame but myself, just like the BG has no one to blame but himself.

[b]"Now here is a straight forward question. You said that when this K-9 gets a running start he hits HIGH every time. Does that mean the dog goes for the face and throat?"[/b]

No. I have seen him hit the chest and shoulder area. He hits hard. Our other dog seems to hit the legs every time. I guess this one wants to be a Frisbee dog.

I always try to avoid "judging a book by its cover." I have not seen your "cover" but you showed some content of a type that I have seen before. If I misjudged, well I can't bring myself to offer an apology.

[b]"I will agree that Law Enforcement is a proud profession, however its luster is somewhat tarnished due to quite a number of politicians in uniform and a few thugs with badges."[/b]

I guess that is true just as it is true for the "luster" of the Catholic Church, the Judiciary, the Medical profession, the Bar, taxi drivers, butchers, bakers and candle stick makers, and the USMC, too. But, you have acknowledged that in some way I guess.

Also true is the fact that some power, authority and even privileges come with the job. These are by necessity. How am I to do my job with out the power and authority of my badge?

Are you an anarchist? If not, I would be interested in hearing your alternatives to Law Enforcement.

Anyway, I guess my other points were made adequately as you are not dissecting them...

[b]"Thanks for the engaging debate Five0!"[/b]

"Engaging?" Idunno about that but you sure kept trying to engage, that's for sure. Way to call me out. I usually ignore this crap.

'Nuff said.

Peanut gallery?

Peanut gallery?

Hello.

Are you there?

Chime in, please!

I guess they are only athletic supporters, not athletes.

LOL..... stop it with the huge comebacks "Rocky". We, in the peanut gallery, like quick clean kills that we can oooooo and ahhhhh at. I hate it when they end up respecting each other [sort of]. [;D]  

LMAO! Sorry, but I try to refrain from becoming a "quick clean kill" when ever possible.