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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:20:32 AM EDT
[#1]
Haven't heard any of those arguments before, most of them seem pretty obviously false to me but maybe others like to get into it. However, it is a known fact that Christianity was heavily modified a couple hundred years later by the Romans to coincide better with Pagan rituals and make for an easier conversion of Europe. Ie: Christmas and Easter moved to the Solstices.
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:22:49 AM EDT
[#2]
And we're off to the races. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. End of subject and race over.
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:24:55 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And we're off to the races. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. End of subject and race over. According to his followers. Muslims feel just as strongly about Mohammed to the point they kill people over cartoons. Every faith throughout history has had its devout believers who will only accept their faith as the one true faith. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:24:56 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And we're off to the races. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. End of subject and race over. Amen 
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:26:27 AM EDT
[#5]
Well, that's like, it, then. There will never be another discussion about this or any other religious or faith related topic here, ever.
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:28:18 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And we're off to the races. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. End of subject and race over. Not to everyone. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:29:13 AM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:31:32 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Amen Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And we're off to the races. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. End of subject and race over. Amen If God can have a son, then why not many? 
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:32:19 AM EDT
[#9]
This thread will result in a very productive discussion devoid of any insults, warnings or bans.
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:33:17 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And we're off to the races. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. End of subject and race over. Lol |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:38:03 AM EDT
[#11]
What a credible and non biased website to prove the existence of Jesus.
Also on the website: Red Moon Rapture 
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:46:13 AM EDT
[#12]
"The Zeitgeist film makes a number of wild statements..."
Boy you can say that again. Also, I think that's as far as I need to read. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:49:35 AM EDT
[#13]
Seems to be 'false flag' arguments, misrepresenting the other side.
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:49:46 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And we're off to the races. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. End of subject and race over. What does that mean? Isaac was the only begotten son of Abraham . . but he had other son's. I think Ishmael was even born first. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:51:43 AM EDT
[#15]
 |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:53:00 AM EDT
[#16]
All religion is poppy cock.
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:53:28 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What does that mean? Isaac was the only begotten son of Abraham . . but he had other son's. I think Ishmael was even born first. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And we're off to the races. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. End of subject and race over. What does that mean? Isaac was the only begotten son of Abraham . . but he had other son's. I think Ishmael was even born first. It means he is he special and obedient, like Isaac and Jepthah's daughter. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:59:30 AM EDT
[#18]
Except Jesus was a real, historical man. Documents outside of the Bible prove his existence.
And He actually was crucified. He actually rose from the dead. That is the difference between Him and the other false prophets and gods. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 10:03:45 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except Jesus was a real, historical man. Documents outside of the Bible prove his existence. And He actually was crucified. He actually rose from the dead. That is the difference between Him and the other false prophets and gods. Cite the documents please, and the recorded history (outside of the bible, we want actual recorded history) about his life, miracles and crucifixion |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 10:06:53 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except Jesus was a real, historical man. Documents outside of the Bible prove his existence. . Um, no The Roman historians account is not factual. It's not like there was live reporting and news articles supporting his actions. You'd think that if all of these "miracles" were being performed in front of thousands that some sort of third party reporting would have survived. It didn't. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 10:08:33 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except Jesus was a real, historical man. Documents outside of the Bible prove his existence. And He actually was crucified. He actually rose from the dead. That is the difference between Him and the other false prophets and gods. Is that a fact? Because I have some facts for you, too Odin actually sacrificed himself and hung from the Tree for three nights times three. Odin actually had his rib cage pierced by a spear. Odin actually did it first. And do you see any ice giants around ?
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Posted: 4/21/2016 10:14:50 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And we're off to the races. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. End of subject and race over. I'm glad that got settled so early in the thread. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 10:18:34 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is that a fact? Because I have some facts for you, too Odin actually sacrificed himself and hung from the Tree for three nights times three. Odin actually had his rib cage pierced by a spear. Odin actually did it first. And do you see any ice giants around ? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Except Jesus was a real, historical man. Documents outside of the Bible prove his existence. And He actually was crucified. He actually rose from the dead. That is the difference between Him and the other false prophets and gods. Is that a fact? Because I have some facts for you, too Odin actually sacrificed himself and hung from the Tree for three nights times three. Odin actually had his rib cage pierced by a spear. Odin actually did it first. And do you see any ice giants around ? Not in AZ. They all melted. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 10:22:05 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except Jesus was a real, historical man. Documents outside of the Bible prove his existence. And He actually was crucified. His body was found missing from his tomb. That is the difference between Him and the other false prophets and gods. There - I fixed it for you. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 10:23:21 AM EDT
[#25]
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Posted: 4/21/2016 10:26:13 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that a fact? Because I have some facts for you, too Odin actually sacrificed himself and hung from the Tree for three nights times three. Odin actually had his rib cage pierced by a spear. Odin actually did it first. And do you see any ice giants around ? But no one in this thread gives a shit so w/e. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 10:28:29 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, that's like, it, then. There will never be another discussion about this or any other religious or faith related topic here, ever. I have to say, the thing I find most interesting about debates over religion, is how people can argue with such certainty over things that are, of their very nature, unknowable. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 10:29:19 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have to say, the thing I find most interesting about debates over religion, is how people can argue with such certainty over things that are, of their very nature, unknowable. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Well, that's like, it, then. There will never be another discussion about this or any other religious or faith related topic here, ever. I have to say, the thing I find most interesting about debates over religion, is how people can argue with such certainty over things that are, of their very nature, unknowable. But..the pages in a heavily edited book TOLD them so! |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 10:30:09 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cite the documents please, and the recorded history (outside of the bible, we want actual recorded history) about his life, miracles and crucifixion Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Except Jesus was a real, historical man. Documents outside of the Bible prove his existence. And He actually was crucified. He actually rose from the dead. That is the difference between Him and the other false prophets and gods. Cite the documents please, and the recorded history (outside of the bible, we want actual recorded history) about his life, miracles and crucifixion Have you read the books of Josephus? They are hard to read, there are some abbreviations out there. He was a Jewish historian from the timeframe directly after the life of Christ, he does a good job of giving background of people and groups. There are also extensive roman histories. For crying out loud, half of the New Testament is simply letters written about current events of the time, why are those tossed out? They were important enough that Constatine decided they should be aggregated into a book for all Christians, known as the Bible. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 10:30:53 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Um, no The Roman historians account is not factual. It's not like there was live reporting and news articles supporting his actions. You'd think that if all of these "miracles" were being performed in front of thousands that some sort of third party reporting would have survived. It didn't. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Except Jesus was a real, historical man. Documents outside of the Bible prove his existence. . Um, no The Roman historians account is not factual. It's not like there was live reporting and news articles supporting his actions. You'd think that if all of these "miracles" were being performed in front of thousands that some sort of third party reporting would have survived. It didn't. Historians do not doubt the existence of a historical Jesus of Nazareth. Historians also do not consider the works of Josephus and Tacitus to be "not factual". That doesn't mean historians believe he was the son of god or performed miracles and whatnot, just that he existed as a religious leader in 1st century Palestine and was executed by the Romans. Which, on it's own, isn't at all out of the ordinary for the time and place (even claiming to be the Messiah, lots of folks did that). From those sources we also know that John the Baptist was a guy who was executed by Herod, and that Pilate was a guy (some people also claimed Pilate didn't exist either up until 1961, despite appearing in many of the same sources) who was also kind of a dick (which gets him fired). Also, lots of events in ancient history are known by very few or single surviving primary (or secondary) sources. It's quite common and something historians just deal with it. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 10:32:56 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is actually a pretty good example of the problem at hand. Speaking from a scholarly perspective (NOT a religious one) there are often common themes in any religion. Death and rebirth, transformation through death, the fundamental flaws of humanity and how to resolve them etc etc etc. Further, Christian missionaries would often take local religion and weave those elements into it in a sort of "you like your religion, you can keep your religion!" kind of thing. But no one in this thread gives a shit so w/e. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Is that a fact? Because I have some facts for you, too Odin actually sacrificed himself and hung from the Tree for three nights times three. Odin actually had his rib cage pierced by a spear. Odin actually did it first. And do you see any ice giants around ? But no one in this thread gives a shit so w/e. Well said Rex. I don't think it's fair to say that just because Odin did it in myth means Christ didn't do it, or that he was a simple construct of men wanting a new religion. Was the story of Odin originally a rip-off of the prophecies of Christ? There is a TON of overlap, but which is the chicken and which is the egg? |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 10:39:17 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well said Rex. I don't think it's fair to say that just because Odin did it in myth means Christ didn't do it, or that he was a simple construct of men wanting a new religion. Was the story of Odin originally a rip-off of the prophecies of Christ? There is a TON of overlap, but which is the chicken and which is the egg? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is that a fact? Because I have some facts for you, too Odin actually sacrificed himself and hung from the Tree for three nights times three. Odin actually had his rib cage pierced by a spear. Odin actually did it first. And do you see any ice giants around ? But no one in this thread gives a shit so w/e. Well said Rex. I don't think it's fair to say that just because Odin did it in myth means Christ didn't do it, or that he was a simple construct of men wanting a new religion. Was the story of Odin originally a rip-off of the prophecies of Christ? There is a TON of overlap, but which is the chicken and which is the egg? How can you be sure Jesus isn't the son of Odin |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 10:48:47 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How can you be sure Jesus isn't the son of Odin Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is that a fact? Because I have some facts for you, too Odin actually sacrificed himself and hung from the Tree for three nights times three. Odin actually had his rib cage pierced by a spear. Odin actually did it first. And do you see any ice giants around ? But no one in this thread gives a shit so w/e. Well said Rex. I don't think it's fair to say that just because Odin did it in myth means Christ didn't do it, or that he was a simple construct of men wanting a new religion. Was the story of Odin originally a rip-off of the prophecies of Christ? There is a TON of overlap, but which is the chicken and which is the egg? How can you be sure Jesus isn't the son of Odin He can I guess. If a culture had been taught the same religion as Israel but used their own names, the change is pretty easy. Look at the foundation of the Catholic Church, there was a struggling christian religion that was suddenly endorsed and supported by one fo the most powerful men in the world (Constantine). Eventually a HUGE amount of the pagan religions became crossed with Christianity as it evolved from a sect of Judaism to something more palatable to the pagans. Names and attributes are merged and blended. I'm not saying that Christ was anything other than the Son of God, but even the word 'begotten' was constructed by a committee of men 300 + years later to separate his birth from all others. How many angels dance on the head of a pin? Did Adam have a belly button? There's the truth, and there's the truth blended with all kinds of cultures, misunderstandings, paganism, etc. Do we know the name of God? No, can we call him Odin if that's the cultural name for God in our area? Sure, but that doesn't mean that's really his name. That's just what we call him. His name isn't 'God' either. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 10:51:56 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Historians do not doubt the existence of a historical Jesus of Nazareth. Historians also do not consider the works of Josephus and Tacitus to be "not factual". It's a far cry from saying there is a historical Jesus to saying he was the Messiah Josephus' comments about a historical Jesus were added later by those trying to bolster their case for Jesus being the Messiah As for the other people who were woven into accounts of Biblical events, its no different than The Walking Dead being set in a place known to the modern viewing audience. Just because the show depicts Atlanta swarming with dead walkers doesn't mean it actually happened. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 11:16:23 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a far cry from saying there is a historical Jesus to saying he was the Messiah Josephus' comments about a historical Jesus were added later by those trying to bolster their case for Jesus being the Messiah As for the other people who were woven into accounts of Biblical events, its no different than The Walking Dead being set in a place known to the modern viewing audience. Just because the show depicts Atlanta swarming with dead walkers doesn't mean it actually happened. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Historians do not doubt the existence of a historical Jesus of Nazareth. Historians also do not consider the works of Josephus and Tacitus to be "not factual". It's a far cry from saying there is a historical Jesus to saying he was the Messiah Josephus' comments about a historical Jesus were added later by those trying to bolster their case for Jesus being the Messiah As for the other people who were woven into accounts of Biblical events, its no different than The Walking Dead being set in a place known to the modern viewing audience. Just because the show depicts Atlanta swarming with dead walkers doesn't mean it actually happened. Exactly, it's historical fiction. Much like the Last of the Mohicans, etc. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 11:25:50 AM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 4/21/2016 11:36:01 AM EDT
[#37]
http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/
Of course a religious based website will present "facts" in such a way to pander to the believers, and of course that's what you will take as truth because of faith. The blinders of religion are powerful. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 11:38:18 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
According to his followers. Muslims feel just as strongly about Mohammed to the point they kill people over cartoons. Every faith throughout history has had its devout believers who will only accept their faith as the one true faith. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And we're off to the races. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. End of subject and race over. According to his followers. Muslims feel just as strongly about Mohammed to the point they kill people over cartoons. Every faith throughout history has had its devout believers who will only accept their faith as the one true faith. this Like quoting Apple "theology" to an Android user, it doesn't mean anything to the other group. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 11:38:24 AM EDT
[#39]
what about RNGesus?
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Posted: 4/21/2016 11:39:57 AM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 4/21/2016 11:42:11 AM EDT
[#41]
Religious beliefs aside, there is ample evidence that Jesus, the man, did in fact exist. You can argue whether or not he was the Messiah, but not whether or not he was a real person.
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Posted: 4/21/2016 11:45:52 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a far cry from saying there is a historical Jesus to saying he was the Messiah Josephus' comments about a historical Jesus were added later by those trying to bolster their case for Jesus being the Messiah As for the other people who were woven into accounts of Biblical events, its no different than The Walking Dead being set in a place known to the modern viewing audience. Just because the show depicts Atlanta swarming with dead walkers doesn't mean it actually happened. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Historians do not doubt the existence of a historical Jesus of Nazareth. Historians also do not consider the works of Josephus and Tacitus to be "not factual". It's a far cry from saying there is a historical Jesus to saying he was the Messiah Josephus' comments about a historical Jesus were added later by those trying to bolster their case for Jesus being the Messiah As for the other people who were woven into accounts of Biblical events, its no different than The Walking Dead being set in a place known to the modern viewing audience. Just because the show depicts Atlanta swarming with dead walkers doesn't mean it actually happened. That was not the thesis of your statement that I originally quoted. You said that Jesus did not exist as a historical person and that the Roman and Jewish sources were "not factual". These are not considered historically valid positions. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 11:47:39 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryNot actual evidence, mostly just rationalizations. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 11:54:46 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not actual evidence, mostly just rationalizations. Quote HistoryWhat I find interesting is people that claim to have faith, attempting to prove those same things they have faith in. Religious faith by definition is belief in something despite the proof. Which is fine if that's what you're in to, but don't get bent out of shape about it when others that want proof don't follow the same belief system because there isn't any. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 11:55:00 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not actual evidence, mostly just rationalizations. Quote HistoryExplain |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 11:57:58 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What I find interesting is people that claim to have faith, attempting to prove those same things they have faith in. Religious faith by definition is belief in something despite the proof. Which is fine if that's what you're in to, but don't get bent out of shape about it when others that want proof don't follow the same belief system because there isn't any. Quote HistoryQuoted:
What I find interesting is people that claim to have faith, attempting to prove those same things they have faith in. Religious faith by definition is belief in something despite the proof. Which is fine if that's what you're in to, but don't get bent out of shape about it when others that want proof don't follow the same belief system because there isn't any. The background to this book is someone who set out to disprove the historical existence of Jesus, yet through his research, came to the exact opposite conclusion. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 11:58:34 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except Jesus was a real, historical man. Documents outside of the Bible prove his existence. And He actually was crucified. He actually rose from the dead. That is the difference between Him and the other false prophets and gods. This. It has been proven by historians that he existed. Many that hated him also spoke of the miracles he performed. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 12:00:16 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The background to this book is someone who set out to disprove the historical existence of Jesus, yet through his research, came to the exact opposite conclusion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What I find interesting is people that claim to have faith, attempting to prove those same things they have faith in. Religious faith by definition is belief in something despite the proof. Which is fine if that's what you're in to, but don't get bent out of shape about it when others that want proof don't follow the same belief system because there isn't any. The background to this book is someone who set out to disprove the historical existence of Jesus, yet through his research, came to the exact opposite conclusion. It's already been stated that many historians belief Jesus walked the earth, and was probably a religious icon. It's the supernatural stuff that people question. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 12:01:05 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread will result in a very productive discussion devoid of any insults, warnings or bans.
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Posted: 4/21/2016 12:02:40 PM EDT
[#50]
The only reason Josephus is even brought up is because unlike the dozens of proven interpolations of Jesus of Nazareth into other works no copies of Josephus prior to the interpolation survived.
No serious historian gives Josephus any credence as proof of historicity. It's faith, faith is great, if you're so inclined. Don't be deceived into believing there's evidence to negate the need of it. |
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