User Panel
Posted: 4/20/2016 10:38:20 AM EDT
A document buried by an AQ bombmaker in Pakistan, dug up and released. Now, it says more about the Saudi's connection to the hijackers.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times/saudi-diplomats-linked-to-september-11-terror-plot/news-story/66592c608fb4b63e577c9a3a086c3b43 |
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You must pay for The Australian, because the site won't let me see the article without paying.
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If you google "Document 17 9/11 Saudi Arabia" then the article appears and you don't have to pay.
New evidence has come to light of a possible link between Saudi Arabian officials and the 9/11 terrorist attacks, further raising tensions as President Obama travels to the kingdom.
Ghassan Al-Sharbi, a Saudi who became an al-Qa’ida bomb maker, is believed to have taken flying lessons with some of the 9/11 hijackers in Arizona but did not take part in the attacks on New York and the Pentagon that killed 3,000 people in 2001. He was captured in Pakistan in 2002 and has since been held at Guantanamo Bay. According to a US memo — known as document 17 — written in 2003 and quietly declassified last year, the FBI learnt that he had buried a cache of papers shortly before he was captured. Document 17 was written by two US investigators examining the possible roles of foreign governments in the attacks. One detail leapt out at them from the papers that Sharbi had tried to hide: his US flight certificate was in an envelope from the Saudi embassy in Washington. Brian McGlinchey, the activist who uncovered document 17, said: “The envelope points to the fundamental question hanging over us today: to what extent was the 9/11 plot facilitated by individuals at the highest levels of the Saudi government?” President Obama is expected to meet on Wednesday with King Salman, whose kingdom is under pressure from low oil prices, an emboldened Iran and Washington’s tougher stance. The Saudi government threatened last week to dump $750 billion in US Treasury securities and other American assets if congress passes a bill that would clear a path for the families of 9/11 victims to file lawsuits against the kingdom. Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, the Democratic presidential candidates, backed the bill, which Mr Obama has signalled he will veto. Donald Trump and Ted Cruz, the leading Republicans in the race, have warned Saudi Arabia that its relationship with the US must change. “Friends do not fund jihadists that are seeking to murder us,” Mr Cruz said. Mr Obama also faces calls to release a redacted 28-page portion of a joint congressional report on the 9/11 attacks, produced in 2002 and thought to link senior Saudi figures to the plot. He suggested on Monday that a decision was imminent. The pages are in a secure room beneath the US Capitol. Congressmen can read them, but are watched to make sure they do not make notes. Thomas Massie, a Republican from Kentucky, said: “I had to stop every couple of pages ... to rearrange my understanding of history.” Bob Graham, a former chairman of the US senate intelligence committee, has alleged that Saudi Arabia was the principal financier of 9/11. “The effect of withholding [the pages] has been to embolden Saudi Arabia to be a continuing source of financial and human terror resources,” he said. Document 17, written by Dana Lesemann and Michael Jacobson, will deepen suspicions. Ms Lesemann is said to have been sacked from the 9/11 commission after she circumvented her boss to access the 28 pages. Mr Jacobson was the principal author of the 28 pages, and document 17 hints at his suspicions. “How aggressively has the US government investigated possible ties between the Saudi government and/or royal family and the September 11th attacks?” it asks. The Times View Quote |
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Is this why the Saudis are dumping oil....end game?
Wish we had a president with some guts |
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Here's "Document 17": link
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Wait, the Saudis aren't our friends? C'mon, next you'll be saying we can't can't trust our allies the Pakistanis.
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I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile View Quote The issue is less about nation states and more about culture/religion anyway. People want to identify a limited target. A nation, a group, or some criminals responsible. They don't want to admit what we actually face. |
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No, old man, that's the correct way to make 'learn' past-tense. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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"Learnt"...article written by a millennial? No, old man, that's the correct way to make 'learn' past-tense. Please tell me you were joking............ |
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Snap,rash decisions were made,there was never going to be a change in the narrative. View Quote Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions. The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else. |
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Saudi Arabia is the country we should have invaded after 7/11 9/11
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Quoted: I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile View Quote OPEC is hopelessly splintered. The US relies on far less Saudi oil than it used to, and if we had to go without it we have other sources we could switch to without badly harming the economy. The Saudi foreign leadership bribery budget is probably shrinking rapidly and it's obvious that their hold on power has been severely weakened. They are on the losing side of a multi front war against Iran, Russia, Syria, the Houthi rebels in Yemen et al. Obama basically told them to fuck off after they begged for help in Syria and against the Iranian nuclear program. They're about to spend money they're short on and eat some sanctions on top of that to build/buy their own nukes. The Saudi government isn't indispensable any more. Keeping them in power will be wildly expensive and will show diminishing returns. More people in power are doing the math and finding that the personal cost of protecting Saudi dirty secrets exceeds the benefit. And all of a sudden we're talking seriously about something everyone knew all along. |
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Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions. The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Snap,rash decisions were made,there was never going to be a change in the narrative. Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions. The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else. This is a great summation. Though, I'd argue that there was a hope at the time that discreet surgery could cure the cancer, and eliminate the need for radiation and chemicals. |
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View Quote I'm confused. If the pages are in a secure room how did I just read them? |
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OBL was the money man to the Baluchis, and KSM was head Baluchi free agent terrorist. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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So how do OBL, and KSM fit in? OBL was the money man to the Baluchis, and KSM was head Baluchi free agent terrorist. That's what I'm thinking, but if OBL was the money man, then why would the Saudis need to fund? |
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The issue is less about nation states and more about culture/religion anyway. People want to identify a limited target. A nation, a group, or some criminals responsible. They don't want to admit what we actually face. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile The issue is less about nation states and more about culture/religion anyway. People want to identify a limited target. A nation, a group, or some criminals responsible. They don't want to admit what we actually face. And what exactly do we "actually face"? |
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Quoted: I'm confused. If the pages are in a secure room how did I just read them? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: I'm confused. If the pages are in a secure room how did I just read them? |
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Quoted: I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile View Quote But the basic answer is people stay uninformed, thank you main stream media. |
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And what exactly do we "actually face"? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile The issue is less about nation states and more about culture/religion anyway. People want to identify a limited target. A nation, a group, or some criminals responsible. They don't want to admit what we actually face. And what exactly do we "actually face"? Cultural and religious war. The problem doesn't begin or end with AQ, ISIS, or other such groups. It wasn't caused by the West. Islam is waking up, looking around and challenging the dominate cultures. |
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Quoted: OPEC is hopelessly splintered. The US relies on far less Saudi oil than it used to, and if we had to go without it we have other sources we could switch to without badly harming the economy. The Saudi foreign leadership bribery budget is probably shrinking rapidly and it's obvious that their hold on power has been severely weakened. They are on the losing side of a multi front war against Iran, Russia, Syria, the Houthi rebels in Yemen et al. Obama basically told them to fuck off after they begged for help in Syria and against the Iranian nuclear program. They're about to spend money they're short on and eat some sanctions on top of that to build/buy their own nukes. The Saudi government isn't indispensable any more. Keeping them in power will be wildly expensive and will show diminishing returns. More people in power are doing the math and finding that the personal cost of protecting Saudi dirty secrets exceeds the benefit. And all of a sudden we're talking seriously about something everyone knew all along. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile OPEC is hopelessly splintered. The US relies on far less Saudi oil than it used to, and if we had to go without it we have other sources we could switch to without badly harming the economy. The Saudi foreign leadership bribery budget is probably shrinking rapidly and it's obvious that their hold on power has been severely weakened. They are on the losing side of a multi front war against Iran, Russia, Syria, the Houthi rebels in Yemen et al. Obama basically told them to fuck off after they begged for help in Syria and against the Iranian nuclear program. They're about to spend money they're short on and eat some sanctions on top of that to build/buy their own nukes. The Saudi government isn't indispensable any more. Keeping them in power will be wildly expensive and will show diminishing returns. More people in power are doing the math and finding that the personal cost of protecting Saudi dirty secrets exceeds the benefit. And all of a sudden we're talking seriously about something everyone knew all along. I am not advocating defending the Saudi's, I am just saying things to think about. Stuff could get real, very quickly. |
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This is a great summation. Though, I'd argue that there was a hope at the time that discreet surgery could cure the cancer, and eliminate the need for radiation and chemicals. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
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Snap,rash decisions were made,there was never going to be a change in the narrative. Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions. The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else. This is a great summation. Though, I'd argue that there was a hope at the time that discreet surgery could cure the cancer, and eliminate the need for radiation and chemicals. Yes. I thought the advances of the West would be the winning factor in the larger conflict. I'm not so sure now. |
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I am not advocating defending the Saudi's, I am just saying things to think about. Stuff could get real, very quickly. View Quote Yes, and more. Iran likely had its hands in 9/11 as well. But Iran and SA are currently facing off, and Russia is a friend of Iran. Russia and Iran have both increased their stature in the ME, due to the current administration. If the House of Saud falls it won't be replaced by something that we like better. It will become the Sunni version of Iran. Like it or not our interests in the region are tied up with the House of Saud. |
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So how do OBL, and KSM fit in? View Quote The whole point of 9/11 was to implicate the Saudi's in attacks on the US, so that the Muslim Brotherhood could drive a rift between the US-Saudi alliance. If the Saudi's were behind 9/11, they would have recruited Iranians. If you know even the least bit of history about the Ottoman-Turkish Caliphate and how it ended after The Great War, largely due to The House of Saud helping the British Empire attack the Turks in their strategic rear to distract them from the European Theater, then you understand what is happening. Since most people don't know geography or history, and only respond to emotional stimuli, they can easily be mislead into thinking the Saudis were behind 9/11. Khalid Sheikh Mohamed specifically tasked Mohamed Atta and the other Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood cell leaders with recruiting Saudi nationals for the Big Event. This is well-known to those who have worked the investigation. The end game goal is to create bad blood between the US and the Saudis, so the major obstacle to the Caliphate can be toppled once they lose US support. |
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And what exactly do we "actually face"? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile The issue is less about nation states and more about culture/religion anyway. People want to identify a limited target. A nation, a group, or some criminals responsible. They don't want to admit what we actually face. And what exactly do we "actually face"? A worldwide group of people who think their god has commanded them to kill or subjugate everyone else. |
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Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions. The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Snap,rash decisions were made,there was never going to be a change in the narrative. Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions. The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else. Everyone else underestimates the big picture Bush and his NSC had, that can't be shared publicly. It's very common for peasants to assume the NSC is filled with idiots, but it wasn't, despite what Rachel Maddow and Chris Mathews assert. |
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Quoted: You know what? Saudi Arabia is not our friend. View Quote *We need a long term exit strategy from the Saudi's. We do not need jump on the band wagon and attack them. Not out of consideration for them, but out of self preservation for us. Just something to think about. |
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Everyone else underestimates the big picture Bush and his NSC had, that can't be shared publicly. It's very common for peasants to assume the NSC is filled with idiots, but it wasn't, despite what Rachel Maddow and Chris Mathews assert. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Snap,rash decisions were made,there was never going to be a change in the narrative. Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions. The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else. Everyone else underestimates the big picture Bush and his NSC had, that can't be shared publicly. It's very common for peasants to assume the NSC is filled with idiots, but it wasn't, despite what Rachel Maddow and Chris Mathews assert. Bush probably placed too much stock in the advice of Bernard Lewis, which made reforming the ME seem like an easier task than it was. Nevertheless the post Surge Iraq was a success we threw away. Our choice to retreat from the region gave the bad actors a victory which gave them incentive to double down. And this self inflicted defeat was done simply because the left saw it as a path to domestic power. |
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OPEC is hopelessly splintered. The US relies on far less Saudi oil than it used to, and if we had to go without it we have other sources we could switch to without badly harming the economy. The Saudi foreign leadership bribery budget is probably shrinking rapidly and it's obvious that their hold on power has been severely weakened. They are on the losing side of a multi front war against Iran, Russia, Syria, the Houthi rebels in Yemen et al. Obama basically told them to fuck off after they begged for help in Syria and against the Iranian nuclear program. They're about to spend money they're short on and eat some sanctions on top of that to build/buy their own nukes. The Saudi government isn't indispensable any more. Keeping them in power will be wildly expensive and will show diminishing returns. More people in power are doing the math and finding that the personal cost of protecting Saudi dirty secrets exceeds the benefit. And all of a sudden we're talking seriously about something everyone knew all along. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile OPEC is hopelessly splintered. The US relies on far less Saudi oil than it used to, and if we had to go without it we have other sources we could switch to without badly harming the economy. The Saudi foreign leadership bribery budget is probably shrinking rapidly and it's obvious that their hold on power has been severely weakened. They are on the losing side of a multi front war against Iran, Russia, Syria, the Houthi rebels in Yemen et al. Obama basically told them to fuck off after they begged for help in Syria and against the Iranian nuclear program. They're about to spend money they're short on and eat some sanctions on top of that to build/buy their own nukes. The Saudi government isn't indispensable any more. Keeping them in power will be wildly expensive and will show diminishing returns. More people in power are doing the math and finding that the personal cost of protecting Saudi dirty secrets exceeds the benefit. And all of a sudden we're talking seriously about something everyone knew all along. Negative. See my post above. "Everyone" doesn't know the basic history of the region, and is so ignorant about the world outside of their daily rabbit path, they should be tased every time they try to form a foreign policy opinion, especially since they don't even know the basic geography of their own State or region, let alone the demographics, economy, or any other relevant data that would come into play at an international level. Your assumptions about Saudi oil are based on energy, not strategic threats in the region. Take the natural path of your suggestions, and see what oil is priced at once Iran exerts more aggression in the Strait of Hormuz. Who does that benefit? Russia and Iran, as prices will go back up to over $200/barrel. All they need to do is attack a ship or two, no major conflict is necessary. All of a sudden, prices sky-rocket and the Kremlin and Tehran can get back to raking in good margins. That's with the US totally independent by the way. China, Japan, India, South Korea, Australia, and other high demand customers will be bent over again, the US will have to devote more military operations for stability, and people at home will ask why we are paying for it since they don't understand basic supply and demand after 12 years of public retarding. You think Canada, Mexico, and our own suppliers are going to ignore the international rate and sell to the US at a discount? |
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Ok, and I don't particularly like them, but tell then....who is? Right now anyway? *We need a long term exit strategy from the Saudi's. We do not need jump on the band wagon and attack them. Not out of consideration for them, but out of self preservation for us. Just something to think about. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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You know what? Saudi Arabia is not our friend. *We need a long term exit strategy from the Saudi's. We do not need jump on the band wagon and attack them. Not out of consideration for them, but out of self preservation for us. Just something to think about. I think we need a long term strategy based on the fact that their oil will not be able to maintain the current structure in the region for ever. Also, a key factor in foreign policy is being a reliable ally. We have had trouble with that, since many of our allies in the non-Western world are ill-behaved, so we kicked them to the curb with disastrous results: Batista, Somoza, the Shah, etc. The economic and military power we have is not nearly as useful if we can't be counted on. Putin with his weak hand has made inroads in ME by providing more reliable leadership. |
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Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions. The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Snap,rash decisions were made,there was never going to be a change in the narrative. Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions. The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else. Not the wars,picking teams and proclaiming that the Pakistanis and Saudis were allies. |
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I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile View Quote The Obama administration has been trying to conduct a switch in alliances in the middle east, and tilting away from Saudi Arabia and towards Iran. It's basically insane, but Obama gonna Obama. This is probably part of that campaign. BTW, this guy: http://observer.com/2016/04/uncovering-the-hidden-truths-of-911/ Has some interesting background, including the possibility that Iran was also providing support to AQ. |
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Everyone else underestimates the big picture Bush and his NSC had, that can't be shared publicly. It's very common for peasants to assume the NSC is filled with idiots, but it wasn't, despite what Rachel Maddow and Chris Mathews assert. View Quote I don't know that this is true cause I don't know, but I'm surprised more people don't hold this opinion or - at least - allow themselves to include it as part of the equation. Great post, as usual. |
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