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User Panel
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:06:56 PM EDT
[#1]
How about a choice that includes both. Most behaviors have both a genetic and environmental component.
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:08:19 PM EDT
[#2]
FYI, this was a multiple choice question. You could have chosen more then 1 box.[;)]
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:10:52 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: FYI, this was a multiple choice question. You could have chosen more then 1 box.[;)] That still wouldn't get the point accross that you think it's a combination of both [;)] |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:11:57 PM EDT
[#4]
I really think they are born that way. It might take them a while to realize and understand it.
I also think because they are born that way it should be viewed as a birth defect. Scientists should be searching for a cure. Its obvious that one of the side efects of being gay is not believing anything is wrong with you. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:12:30 PM EDT
[#5]
Yeah, your right, this damn multi-choice poll poll suxors!! That's the last damn time I use multi-choice.
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:18:24 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: I really think they are born that way. It might take them a while to realize and understand it. I also think because they are born that way it should be viewed as a birth defect. Scientists should be searching for a cure. Its obvious that one of the side efects of being gay is not believing anything is wrong with you. I guess you could say that about heterosexuality too, eh? Whether it's genetic or environmental has nothing to do with whether or not we should search for a cure. That depends on whether or not [u]you[/u] think it's a bad thing to be. Many cancers are genetically linked, others seem to be entirely environmental. Should we look for cures for one and not the other? |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:20:55 PM EDT
[#7]
Couldn't vote! You didn't have the catagory born and choice.
Met a guy in the Army once that was losing his testicle. It was just going up into him. We did a DNA test and it came out FEMALE. I'd say that ranks as born. Otherwise I have known guys that were women fiends that switched. Nothing in life or nature is black or white except ethics/morals. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:24:23 PM EDT
[#8]
Nothing in life or nature is black or white except ethics/morals. Nature doesn't have ethics or morals. edit to add: I think some guys are gay cuz they like to suck c*ck! |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:28:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Cancer can strike anybody for any number of reasons.
God made Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve. Yes, you are born heterosexual. Or not. Your SUPPOSED to born heterosexual. You could be born with Downs syndrome. That would also be a birth defect, right? So, when a man is born with the desire to do another man in da butt, that ain't right. In fact its soooo not right it has to be a birth defect. Something is wrong with the brain. Shit, is this only obvious to me? |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:33:13 PM EDT
[#10]
if God can make folks with ambiguous genitalia,
IE a kitty and a pokey. i think he can make them with a normal male or female body and a brain that thinks it's the other. say you know your a woman. you feel like one, the inflection in the way you talk is like one the only thing that keeps you from being excepted as one is your personal appearance. i say all this to say if God can screw up this bad he can "flip a switch" that makes you like the same sex. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:36:23 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: edit to add: I think some guys are gay cuz they like to suck c*ck! Dammit Jojo! I think you may be on to something there! |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:36:35 PM EDT
[#12]
Over twenty years ago, all research indicated that most were created by a number of environmental factors; over bearing mother, sexual abuse, not big and strong like dad or jocks, picked on, lack of self confidence when dealing with opposite sex, etc, etc. The list can go on. Because of political correctness, and the unwillingness of the homosexual community to look at themselves objectively, and downright hostility to anyone and any research that defies them, no one will here of this research. It has been suppressed for personal and political reasons. I believe most gays are recruited from these targeted factors, or if someone feels that they don't measure up as a man, and need to reach out. Gays are more than willing to reach out to disenfranchised males. They set up a group mentality, that reinforces that once they are gay that cannot go back. However, there are some that are born that way, but I believe they are a minority among homosexuals. The "born that way" may have hormonal difference that either make them more efeminate, or extremely masculine. Those that are of the high masculine set also have high testosterine levels. These men have elevated sex drives. They will mate with anything, and since men tend to be "easier," they have a better chance at scoring with other men, or recruiting new men.
This is somewhat oversimplified, but I would have to do a great deal of research to back this up. The research is out there. Bilster |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:36:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: I really think they are born that way. It might take them a while to realize and understand it. I also think because they are born that way it should be viewed as a birth defect. Scientists should be searching for a cure. Its obvious that one of the side efects of being gay is not believing anything is wrong with you. Why cure it? I really have no idea what makes people gay, but I do know few gay people and don't have the problem with their "lifestyle" althought the politics get old sometimes |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:39:15 PM EDT
[#14]
Who CARES ?[rolleyes]
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:39:32 PM EDT
[#15]
I believe it's a matter of choice, either conciously or subconsiouly. No one will ever convince me that someone can be BORN gay.
For the record, I have known several homosexuals and lesbians and never have I passed judgement on them for their lifestyle. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:41:00 PM EDT
[#16]
I think the same assholes who bring god into the whole "gay/straight" equation are the same assholes who would disown their children if they strayed "to the dark side".
Fundamentalism sucks. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:44:19 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Over twenty years ago, [red]all[/red] research indicated that most were created by a number of environmental factors; over bearing mother, sexual abuse, not big and strong like dad or jocks, picked on, lack of self confidence when dealing with opposite sex, etc, etc. The list can go on. Because of political correctness, and the unwillingness of the homosexual community to look at themselves objectively, and downright hostility to anyone and any research that defies them, no one will here of this research. It has been suppressed for personal and political reasons. I believe most gays are recruited from these targeted factors, or if someone feels that they don't measure up as a man, and need to reach out. Gays are more than willing to reach out to disenfranchised males. They set up a group mentality, that reinforces that once they are gay that cannot go back. However, there are some that are born that way, but I believe they are a minority among homosexuals. The "born that way" may have hormonal difference that either make them more efeminate, or extremely masculine. Those that are of the high masculine set also have high testosterine levels. These men have elevated sex drives. They will mate with anything, and since men tend to be "easier," they have a better chance at scoring with other men, or recruiting new men. This is somewhat oversimplified, but I would have to do a great deal of research to back this up. The research is out there. Bilster It's an interesting (not to mention preposterous) idea that we are all just an "overbearing mother" away from being flamers. Being gay is such a social stigma that I seriously doubt that many people would [u]choose[/u] to be. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:45:21 PM EDT
[#18]
Being Black is what you [b]are[/b], being homosexual is what you [b]do[/b]...
If a choice of who you sleep with is genetic, what is wrong with the gene of those who choose to abstain? |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:46:50 PM EDT
[#19]
Just for your entertainment! Notice how hateful and intolerant these freaks are...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID71/736.html WE have to be TOLERANT. If you don't agree with MY definition of TOLERANT though, YOU are a hate-filled, right-wing Christian, conservative, homophobic, sexist, bigoted piece of shit that doesn't deserve life. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:47:37 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Being Black is what you [b]are[/b], being homosexual is what you [b]do[/b]... If a choice of who you sleep with is genetic, what is wrong with the gene of those who choose to abstain? Well said. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:53:24 PM EDT
[#21]
I'm with TJ on this. Lots of grey here.
It's not "natural" to be gay. Doubt me on that? If it was, by using simple biological laws of nature, homosexuals would literally screw themselves out of existence. Humans with those proclivities would cease to contribute to the gene pool because they cannot procreate and ensure the continued survival of their "species". But there are some people out there who are just too damn "GAY" and always have been since childhood. I have known some of those types. They did not decide as a 5 year old that they wanted to pack fudge. There are other factors out there. I look at it from a religious perspective. I don't understand it. I don't like it. I don't wanna have it shoved in my face (so I avoid watching Will and Grace). BUT... I do not judge them and condemn them to the bowells of hell for being gay. There are many puzzling questions that I don't know the answers to. Like how the universe was created. Was there a second gunman on the grassy hill? Who shot JR? And what is the deal with homosexuality? God knows. I will let him deal with it. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 1:09:35 PM EDT
[#22]
Gays are made. Why else would they want the Boy Scouts opened to gay Scoutmasters if not to recruit and train more gays?
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Posted: 5/6/2003 1:11:51 PM EDT
[#23]
I think that many are born gay, with a smaller group that might not have been born gay, but was more predisposed to become that way. I don't think that anyone would choose to be gay unless that's what truly felt right to them. And how is gay sex 'wrong'? It may be icky, it may be risky, but it's not wrong. What two consenting adults do behind closed doors to each other is no one's business but their, and it isn't wrong if both agree to it.
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Posted: 5/6/2003 1:17:51 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: I think that many are born gay, with a smaller group that might not have been born gay, but was more predisposed to become that way. I don't think that anyone would choose to be gay unless that's what truly felt right to them. And how is gay sex 'wrong'? It may be icky, it may be risky, but it's not wrong. What two consenting adults do behind closed doors to each other is no one's business but their, and it isn't wrong if both agree to it. I don't like the whole "consenting adults" thing. I do admit that I don't wanna know what Jim and Bob are doing to each other behind their closed doors. It's their deal... to a point. What if Jim and Bob wanna look at some kiddie porn? And they NEVER act toward a child on it. Is that wrong? There have to be some lines SOMEWHERE in this life. I don't go for "anything goes" types of lifesyles. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 1:18:09 PM EDT
[#25]
I suspect that being gay can be a born trait, and also an environental trait. I likewise suspect that most of it is a born tendency and a lot of the factors are used to explain something that makes people uncomfortable.
I'm in the camp that does not feel a need to "punish" gays as long as children are not involved, force is not involved, and it is not radicalized and shoved at me like a weapon. Leave me alone and I'll be happy to let you go away and do your thing. With all the hate involved I doubt very much that many would "choose" to make it a lifestyle choice. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 1:19:35 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Gays are made. Why else would they want the Boy Scouts opened to gay Scoutmasters if not to recruit and train more gays? My mother made me a homo.....AND IF YOU GIVE HER MATERIAL SHE'LL MAKE YOU ONE TOO. They want to be scoutmasters for the same reason they want to be cop,doctors,soldiers,firemen,lawyers,etc |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 1:23:03 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Gays are made. Why else would they want the Boy Scouts opened to gay Scoutmasters if not to recruit and train more gays? Ummmm, just possibly to try to eliminate part of the stigma associated with being gay. That is a possibility, isn't it? |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 1:27:01 PM EDT
[#28]
If they are not born that way, then it must be a matter of training. If that's true then it would also be true that you "straight" people could be persuaded to enjoy a little gay sex. All it would take is the right cute guy, some sweet talk, and maybe a romantic dinner, right?
If that's true for you, or if you think it is true for anyone, then I would suggest that there is some latent bisexuality going on there -- probably inborn. With me personally, I am quite sure that my sexual preferences were inborn. I can recall feeling definite electricity from the presence of females from my earliest childhood. And it wasn't anything intellectual or anything I even thought about. Girls do something for me that guys never did. If it is different for you, and you think that you could be changed into a homosexual by the right cute guy and a little sweet talk, let me suggest that is purely your personal thing. It ain't mine, and never would be. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 1:29:28 PM EDT
[#29]
If its entirely environmental then it could be argued that our chemical laden society is responsible for mutating humans into unnatural sexual practices, amongst other things. But on the other hand, there have been gays around for a looooong time, like ancient Rome, I think.
I think its a combination of environment and learned behavior, enhanced by chemical pollution of our food and water. Pollution has got to have some impact on human behavior. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 1:43:48 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: If its entirely environmental then it could be argued that our chemical laden society is responsible for mutating humans into unnatural sexual practices, amongst other things. But on the other hand, there have been gays around for a looooong time, like ancient Rome, I think. I think its a combination of environment and learned behavior, enhanced by chemical pollution of our food and water. Pollution has got to have some impact on human behavior. If it is "learned behavior" then it naturally follows that a cute guy with a good line could teach you to be a homo. Is that correct? |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 2:12:54 PM EDT
[#31]
Not "learned", chosen. There is a big defference there.
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Posted: 5/6/2003 2:13:30 PM EDT
[#32]
Learned behavior:
Your comment oversimplifies things... For a person who believes (for religeous or cultural reasons) that being gay is wrong, 'the right individual' won't change a thing... Just like 'the right girl' won't get me to break from my religeous beliefs on straight sex (i.e. get married first)... However, there are also those who lack any form of conviction, and just 'do what feels good'. Those sorts of people may very well be 'convertable', as the question 'is this right' never enters the picture. It's just 'where can I get my rocks off', so to speak (i.e. the 'I'll screw anything live and breathing' type)... Religeon and being gay: It is quite clear for a Christian or Jew that homosexual acts are forbidden (it is not the temptation that is wrong, it's acting on it). It's written, and we believe that this settles the question with no 'wiggle room'. It's also quite clear that it is not our place to pass judgement on those who commit them. Believe it is wrong, yes. However, unless the individual is someone you know and a professing member of your church/religeon (in which case all that's appropriate is a polite comment on how their lifestyle contradicts their professed convctions.), it is between them and God. Personally, I believe it is a choice. It's a choice that may be made more likely by environment or other factors (just like the choice to do anything else that is 'wrong' is influenced by your environment), but a choice none the less. To say otherwise would imply that we are all slaves to our base instincts, and incapable of free will (which is obviously not the case. Otherwise we'd all be in the 'live, breathing, and interested' category wrt sexual habits for either preference). As a sexually inactive individual, I can certainly state that my mind overrules base instinct (there are benefits to not being an inverterate tail-chaser)... |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 2:17:09 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Nothing in life or nature is black or white except ethics/morals. Nature doesn't have ethics or morals. edit to add: I think some guys are gay cuz they like to suck c*ck! Last time I checked my young friend I am in nature and a part of the same. Your edit is a bit crude but is to the POINT of the issue. Tj |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 2:18:28 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: I really think they are born that way. It might take them a while to realize and understand it. I also think because they are born that way it should be viewed as a birth defect. Scientists should be searching for a cure. Its obvious that one of the side efects of being gay is not believing anything is wrong with you. Another side effect is, the American Psyciatric association says there's nothing wrong with them too!! |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 2:22:43 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Nothing in life or nature is black or white except ethics/morals. That's my buddy!! [:D] |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 2:48:34 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: I think the same assholes who bring god into the whole "gay/straight" equation are the same assholes who would disown their children if they strayed "to the dark side". Fundamentalism sucks. Tell it to Jesus..... |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 2:49:01 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Over twenty years ago, [red]all research[/red] indicated that most were created by a number of environmental factors; over bearing mother, sexual abuse, not big and strong like dad or jocks, picked on, lack of self confidence when dealing with opposite sex, etc, etc. The list can go on. Because of political correctness, and the unwillingness of the homosexual community to look at themselves objectively, and downright hostility to anyone and any research that defies them, no one will here of this research. It has been suppressed for personal and political reasons. I believe most gays are [red]recruited[/red] from these targeted factors, or if someone feels that they don't measure up as a man, and need to reach out. Gays are more than willing to reach out to disenfranchised males. They set up a group mentality, that reinforces that once they are gay that cannot go back. However, there are some that are born that way, but I believe they are a minority among homosexuals. The "born that way" may have hormonal difference that either make them more efeminate, or extremely masculine. Those that are of the high masculine set also have high testosterine levels. These men have elevated sex drives. They will mate with anything, and since men tend to be "easier," they have a better chance at scoring with other men, or recruiting new men. This is [red]somewhat oversimplified[/red], but I would have to do a great deal of research to back this up. The research is out there. Bilster 1. What "research" would that be? And "all" of it proves that it is environmental? 2. Homosexual "recruiting" others? Do they have posters and stuff? 2. "Somewhat oversimplified"? Explain lesbians, then. Remember, they're homosexuals too. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 2:51:49 PM EDT
[#38]
I gotta say born that way, some kids just aren't...Right...No matter how great their parents are.
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Posted: 5/6/2003 3:10:41 PM EDT
[#39]
There is no doubt that the culture you are in can make you a practicing homosexual. Look at Ancient Greece, parts of the Islamic world even today, and parts of China. The demeaning of women is a trademark of these cultures.
However, in our western society, the Christian faith has been trying for the better part of 1500 years to eliminate this behavior. Persecutions of "sodimites" were quite severe in both midevil and early-modern Europe and America. Given that we still HAVE gay people in spite of this, this would tend to suggest-a tendency reenforced by sociological and psychological studies of gays today- that it is for part of the population a heredatery predisposition. The fact is that suppressing it may have caused the trait for predisposition to homosexuality to spread. Gay people for a long time in the west had to get married, and have families for cover. Think about it. A gay couple cannot reproduce sexually... Probably, it is a double recessive trait, which therefore only expresses itself occasionally. The more families carrying the recessive traits (a gene or genes) the more homosexuals are going to pop up in society. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 3:30:50 PM EDT
[#40]
Both. One new idea on being born that way, is that homosexuality is caused by the fertilized egg being too warm at the wrong time.
I wonder if there are examples of identical twins where one brother is homosexual while the other brother isn't? |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 3:34:21 PM EDT
[#41]
This is easy. For a grown man to become excited at the sight of another man's hairy ass, he has to be have been born that way. I have nothing against gays, although I don't believe they should serve openly in the military. Having said that, I worked with a few gays when I was in the army at one time or another. They did there jobs quietly and were very discrete about their lifestyle. Gays are not new to society. They have been around since the dawn of man. They are not going away, and are very vocal about their lifestyles in free countries. I don't know that they try to "recruit" and "convert" heterosexuals as much as they seek out others of their persuasion. Bill Clinton was wrong for trying to "emancipate" them, but that is a subject for a different thread. Panzer Out |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 3:35:12 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: Both. One new idea on being born that way, is that homosexuality is caused by the fertilized egg being too warm at the wrong time. I wonder if there are examples of identical twins where one brother is homosexual while the other brother isn't? I know of twins that are both gay [lesbians] |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 6:37:24 PM EDT
[#43]
I hear some are sucked into it.
Bobwrench |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 6:51:00 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Not "learned", chosen. There is a big defference there. OK, so a good-looking chick hits on you, and a good-looking guy does, too. In other words, you might "choose" to have sex with one but both are equally attractive to you. Both ring the same kind of bells in your body, you just "choose" not to have sex with guys? That is, all guys have strong homosexual desires, they just don't act on them? If that was true, then it occurs to me that with the difference in the rate at which men and women will agree to have sex, most men would be having most of their sex with other men. Most of them would be actively homosexual. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 7:00:27 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: Personally, I believe it is a choice. It's a choice that may be made more likely by environment or other factors (just like the choice to do anything else that is 'wrong' is influenced by your environment), but a choice none the less. To say otherwise would imply that we are all slaves to our base instincts, and incapable of free will (which is obviously not the case. Otherwise we'd all be in the 'live, breathing, and interested' category wrt sexual habits for either preference). As a sexually inactive individual, I can certainly state that my mind overrules base instinct (there are benefits to not being an inverterate tail-chaser)... I agreed with all your stuff about not passing judgment. That was great. But, if it was a "choice" then that means that you must feel desires for men equally strong to those you feel for women. Is there no tendency either way? Just to give you an example, I get nothing at all from men - zip, nada. To me they simply don't arouse anything to do with sex. With women, however, there is a bolt of electricity that goes straight to my spine. No question about it, something happens with girls that just doesn't happen with boys. I would have to think that anyone who argues that sexual preference is a choice just don't get that same clear feeling. For them, a cute guy must have as much impact as a cute girl -- they just choose not to have sex with one variety of them. That is, they have homosexual desires, they just don't act on them. I can't see any other explanation, because I know that for me and most of my male friends, there isn't any "choice" about it. It's built into the spinal cord. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 7:00:31 PM EDT
[#46]
[b]NSFJojo
Team AR15.Com Wrote: ________________________________________________ I think the same assholes who bring god into the whole "gay/straight" equation are the same assholes who would disown their children if they strayed "to the dark side". Fundamentalism sucks. ________________________________________________[/b] Well, Let's see NSFJojo, about fundamentals: Point: Homo Sapiens (Us/People) are classified by scientists (Darwin, Sagan, et al) as belonging to the Group called Mammals. Point: I know of no other mammalon this planet that practice homosexual behavior. Point: Since heterosexual behavior is normal for mammals on this planet, then homosexual behavior is abnormal for mammals on this planet. Point: Please don't bring in amoebas and worms or any other sexual behaviors found in other Groups on this planet. They are not part of our Group according to Science. Point: Don't tell me you saw one male dog try to mount another male dog. True? Yes. But, what was the reaction of the male dog being mounted? That's right, instant bared fangs! And no actual copulation. Gee, didn't have to bring God into it at all. Just science. And of course, fundamentals. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 7:05:09 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: Both. One new idea on being born that way, is that homosexuality is caused by the fertilized egg being too warm at the wrong time. I wonder if there are examples of identical twins where one brother is homosexual while the other brother isn't? My daughter knows a guy and his twin sister, raised in a stable environment by their natural parents. The guy is a flaming, swishy, obvious homosexual, and his sister is a bull dyke. OK, all you people that say it is environment, explain that one. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 7:24:30 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Point: I know of no other mammalon this planet that practice homosexual behavior. There was some study on a group of some species of monkey that had a lot of homosexual behavior in the group, even when there were monkeys of the opposite sex to mate with. So what did these monkeys do, make a choice to go against their instincts? |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 7:31:26 PM EDT
[#49]
deadman
Member -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: Point: I know of no other mammalon this planet that practice homosexual behavior. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [b]There was some study on a group of some species of monkey that had a lot of homosexual behavior in the group, even when there were monkeys of the opposite sex to mate with. So what did these monkeys do, make a choice to go against their instincts?[/b] Providing "some study" by "them,they"... Sorry, hearsay evidence won't stand up in court. I will be happy to examine any evidence put forward that I can further investigate myself. |
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Posted: 5/6/2003 7:31:52 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: [b]NSFJojo Team AR15.Com Wrote: ________________________________________________ I think the same assholes who bring god into the whole "gay/straight" equation are the same assholes who would disown their children if they strayed "to the dark side". Fundamentalism sucks. ________________________________________________[/b] Well, Let's see NSFJojo, about fundamentals: Point: Homo Sapiens (Us/People) are classified by scientists (Darwin, Sagan, et al) as belonging to the Group called Mammals. Point: I know of no other mammalon this planet that practice homosexual behavior. Point: Since heterosexual behavior is normal for mammals on this planet, then homosexual behavior is abnormal for mammals on this planet. Point: Please don't bring in amoebas and worms or any other sexual behaviors found in other Groups on this planet. They are not part of our Group according to Science. Point: Don't tell me you saw one male dog try to mount another male dog. True? Yes. But, what was the reaction of the male dog being mounted? That's right, instant bared fangs! And no actual copulation. Gee, didn't have to bring God into it at all. Just science. And of course, fundamentals. yes but Humans unlike almost every other mammal (i belive dolphins are the only other one) have sex for pleasure and not just mating. pint is someones gay becouse they like doing what they do. Why I dontkknow having something shoved up my butt or a mans member in my mouth isnt something that I want to do but some do and as long as they keep it to themselfs I dont care. |
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