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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:33:53 PM EDT
[#1]
Part 2 of 2.
I think that the main point of controversy here is whether or not he's right about the FBI requirement of 12 to 18 inches of penetration not being valid. I mean, the guys that came up with that requirement were experts on bullet wounds. Shooting some dead hog doesn't exactly debunk their findings. But I'm not an expert on terminal ballistics, so I can't really comment with authority on why they were right or not about limiting the maximum penetration depth to 18 inches. I always just assumed that they made that recommendation in order to limit the possibility of collateral damage and maximize the release of the bullet's kinetic energy into the target. So, I guess that the conclusion from his video should be that for those of us that don't really care about a few inches of overpenetration and want to create the largest wound channel possible, then this new bullet design has indeed made traditional JHPs obsolete. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:34:19 PM EDT
[#2]
no
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:35:14 PM EDT
[#3]
22 plinkster on YouTube used one of their rounds out of a G40. Round went through 2 inches of bullet proof glass. Or that bullet proof plastic window stuff.
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:43:24 PM EDT
[#4]
When I researched this question pretty extensively (a long time ago) I read that only CNS hits or significant skeletal damage reliably put a BG down. I concluded from what I read that FMJ is as good as HP because FMJ's presumptively greater penetration increases the likelihood of a CNS/skeletal hit. In any event, my EDC is HP.
YMMV |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:46:13 PM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:47:45 PM EDT
[#6]
If lawyers and prosecutors did not exist, FMJ would be suitable for stopping bad guys.
Hollow point bullets are designed to minimize the possibility of over penetration, the side benefit is that sometimes they get bigger..... |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:47:47 PM EDT
[#7]
Saw that video this morning, Lehigh makes some interesting bullet for sure, after seeing the ballistics gel results I wouldn't fault anyone for making that their carry round of choice if it feeds reliably in their gun. I don't see a burning need to get rid of my 124gr HSTs though, think the ballistics gel shows that they also get the job done.
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:49:18 PM EDT
[#8]
Depends on the purpose.
Many bullets are good enough. We've been shooting accurately and killing things for a while now. If you are looking for optimum performance and value, then bullets must be tailored to the application. There are things that you wouldn't want a cast boolit for, but in some instances a soft lead bullet will do a better job than a solid copper. Vice versa applies here. Same with velocity. High velocity, low mass of a FN 5.7 vs a Keith cast .44 Mag. Totally different rounds doing totally different things. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:49:50 PM EDT
[#9]
Maybe for 380.
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:50:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Seems like snake oil.....
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:51:19 PM EDT
[#11]
Ammo Oracle has a whole section on terminal ballistics. Its for rifles, but it applies to pistol rounds too.
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:51:36 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryThe only sensible answer 
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:51:48 PM EDT
[#13]
I bet that shit would bind up a 1911 like no ones business
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:51:57 PM EDT
[#14]
I like the idea of this ammo. Expending the bullet's energy to deform the metal bullet seems like a waste of limited KE.
It also seems like this bullet wouldn't have problems with the cavity being clogged. Would I carry it? Yeah. Mass-produce it so it's not so expensive, get some more folks to test it. I don't see any downsides at that point. ETA: assuming it feeds in your gun. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:52:35 PM EDT
[#15]
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:53:00 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If lawyers and prosecutors did not exist, FMJ would be suitable for stopping bad guys. Hollow point bullets are designed to minimize the possibility of over penetration, the side benefit is that sometimes they get bigger..... Wrong |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:54:44 PM EDT
[#17]
Same snake oil from a few years ago.
Pushing lightweight bullets at extremely high pressures is nothing new. It will wreck barrels and cause premature wear and tear. Bonded bullets are the best you'll get right now until we come up with something "in the 40 watt range" |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:54:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I bet that shit would bind up a 1911 like no ones business a proper ramp and throat job on a 1911 and it can feed empty brass...... |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:55:19 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If lawyers and prosecutors did not exist, FMJ would be suitable for stopping bad guys. Hollow point bullets are designed to minimize the possibility of over penetration, the side benefit is that sometimes they get bigger..... Given that only 17% or whatever paltry number of rounds actually hits the intended target during a heated gunfight, simply the number of errant rounds flying all over the place makes overpenetration a moot point. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:01:15 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same snake oil from a few years ago. Pushing lightweight bullets at extremely high pressures is nothing new. It will wreck barrels and cause premature wear and tear. Bonded bullets are the best you'll get right now until we come up with something "in the 40 watt range" except when you change bullet shape and materials you have to test it ...because it might be better... |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:01:26 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If lawyers and prosecutors did not exist, FMJ would be suitable for stopping bad guys. Hollow point bullets are designed to minimize the possibility of over penetration, the side benefit is that sometimes they get bigger..... I'm interested here. Not trying to be difficult, but do you have case law or any links to support what you just posted. I always believed hollow points expanded to release energy upon the body quickly instead of rapidly going through the flesh while leaving a smaller wound cavity, but that could be just sophistry on my part. I am no expert in ballistics. Any lawsuits or example you can give me regarding over FMJ verses hollow points would be of interest. Any studies I can read? |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:01:40 PM EDT
[#22]
A quality JHP will reliably create a larger wound channel compared to an FMJ, and will give you all the penetration that you need. I believe that JHPs are overall a better choice than FMJs (especially for 9mm). The 9mm HST and Ranger-T will often expand to 0.75"+, and that's a massive increase compared to the size of the bullet as it's leaving the barrel (0.355").
Perhaps this is an "interesting" bullet design, but I think I'll stick with the tried-and-true Winchester Ranger-T series (the 127gr +P+ RA9TA is my personal fav). |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:02:21 PM EDT
[#23]
DRT rounds are the BOMB
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:06:06 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wrong Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If lawyers and prosecutors did not exist, FMJ would be suitable for stopping bad guys. Hollow point bullets are designed to minimize the possibility of over penetration, the side benefit is that sometimes they get bigger..... Wrong If CNS shots are the only guaranteed way of stopping a target, what difference does it make if its a hollow point or FMJ. Also, I should clarify Im talking about handgun rounds in a non-LEO defensive role. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:06:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same snake oil from a few years ago. Pushing lightweight bullets at extremely high pressures is nothing new. It will wreck barrels and cause premature wear and tear. Bonded bullets are the best you'll get right now until we come up with something "in the 40 watt range" I'm fairly certain you have not done your homework on this bullet. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:07:09 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A quality JHP will reliably create a larger wound channel compared to an FMJ, and will give you all the penetration that you need. I believe that JHPs are overall a better choice than FMJs (especially for 9mm). The 9mm HST and Ranger-T will often expand to 0.75"+, and that's a massive increase compared to the size of the bullet as it's leaving the barrel (0.355"). Perhaps this is an "interesting" bullet design, but I think I'll stick with the tried-and-true Winchester Ranger-T series (the 127gr +P+ RA9TA is my personal fav). These aren't typical FMJs, though. If you watched the video, you'd see that these Underwood bullets outperformed a 124-grain Federal HST - widely regarded as one of the best JHPs. Not only was the wound track wider, but it was much longer as well. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:11:53 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryIs the dude on the right in black face? Or is that tactical shoe polish? |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:13:06 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
a proper ramp and throat job on a 1911 and it can feed empty brass...... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I bet that shit would bind up a 1911 like no ones business a proper ramp and throat job on a 1911 and it can feed empty brass...... My cheap little RIA does that. Any in spec and correctly functioning 1911 will, ,and you don't need any ramp or throat work. Good mags and a correctly tuned extractor, along with the proper weight recoil and hammer spring is all that is needed. The empty case test is actually an original feeding test procedure done since the guns were first produced. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:13:35 PM EDT
[#29]
LOL just carry G2R Rip rounds and youll be set
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:15:22 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If CNS shots are the only guaranteed way of stopping a target, what difference does it make if its a hollow point or FMJ. Also, I should clarify Im talking about handgun rounds in a non-LEO defensive role. You are correct that a CNS shot is the only thing that will reliably stop a fight. With that said, you have a better chance of severing a spinal cord with a 0.75" diameter projectile vs. one that is only 0.355". I'll take any edge I can get if I am ever forced to use my pistol to defend myself. I recall reading an FBI report about 10 years ago regarding a knife-wielding guy who was shot 4-5 times in the chest by an officer with a .45 ACP, and his response was something to the effect of "those feel like bee stings". He only stopped what he was doing after the last round, and he did not die (I can try to find the source if anyone is interested). The human body is amazing. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:15:57 PM EDT
[#31]
OP, you can use something like the Hornaday XTPs, which are actually hunting rounds originally, and designed to penetrate more than they are to open big. They don't open as large as some, will penetrate deeper than most, but still, my average on animals is about .750 diameter, from a .45acp 230gr.
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:16:31 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is the dude on the right in black face? Or is that tactical shoe polish? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is the dude on the right in black face? Or is that tactical shoe polish? I noticed that too. My guess is tactical black face, courtesy of Photoshop. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:18:19 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems like snake oil..... This, but I'm willing to let others guinea pig it for me. 
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:20:23 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My cheap little RIA does that. Any in spec and correctly functioning 1911 will, ,and you don't need any ramp or throat work. Good mags and a correctly tuned extractor, along with the proper weight recoil and hammer spring is all that is needed. The empty case test is actually an original feeding test procedure done since the guns were first produced. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I bet that shit would bind up a 1911 like no ones business a proper ramp and throat job on a 1911 and it can feed empty brass...... My cheap little RIA does that. Any in spec and correctly functioning 1911 will, ,and you don't need any ramp or throat work. Good mags and a correctly tuned extractor, along with the proper weight recoil and hammer spring is all that is needed. The empty case test is actually an original feeding test procedure done since the guns were first produced. I know this  and when I say proper throat and ramp job I am talking about when the gun is put together...
but a lot of companies have dropped that ball on this... |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:23:15 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If lawyers and prosecutors did not exist, FMJ would be suitable for stopping bad guys. Hollow point bullets are designed to minimize the possibility of over penetration, the side benefit is that sometimes they get bigger..... My sarcasm meter is perhaps broken, given that hollow points have been around a long, long time, and exist for a very good reasons, and none of them have to do with lawyers or prosecutors. a serious clue that you are wrong - they're illegal in NJ. if your premise was accurate, they would not be illegal there. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:26:13 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My sarcasm meter is perhaps broken, given that hollow points have been around a long, long time, and exist for a very good reasons, and none of them have to do with lawyers or prosecutors. a serious clue that you are wrong - they're illegal in NJ. if your premise was accurate, they would not be illegal there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If lawyers and prosecutors did not exist, FMJ would be suitable for stopping bad guys. Hollow point bullets are designed to minimize the possibility of over penetration, the side benefit is that sometimes they get bigger..... My sarcasm meter is perhaps broken, given that hollow points have been around a long, long time, and exist for a very good reasons, and none of them have to do with lawyers or prosecutors. a serious clue that you are wrong - they're illegal in NJ. if your premise was accurate, they would not be illegal there. NJ is a horrible example. You can't even pump your own gas there
Keep in mind this is GD and my initial response is GDish. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:27:34 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If CNS shots are the only guaranteed way of stopping a target, what difference does it make if its a hollow point or FMJ. Also, I should clarify Im talking about handgun rounds in a non-LEO defensive role. two things: tissue destruction and blood loss. You may not get an instant stop, but more damage usually means you will get a stop at some point. I want as much damage from each shot as possible. Then there is the penetration issue that is lessened by the use of hollow points, but that's a secondary consideration - important, but secondary. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:30:21 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
NJ is a horrible example. You can't even pump your own gas there
Keep in mind this is GD and my initial response is GDish. that's why I said my sarcasm meter was not working. NJ is a good example as they are trying to limit the effectiveness of handguns. If HP ammo was only due to lawyers, they'd be pushing it. Ironically, they are putting more people at risk but it is NJ. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:32:32 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL just carry G2R Rip rounds and youll be set Beat me to it.  |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:32:53 PM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:34:17 PM EDT
[#41]
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:35:21 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
These aren't typical FMJs, though. If you watched the video, you'd see that these Underwood bullets outperformed a 124-grain Federal HST - widely regarded as one of the best JHPs. Not only was the wound track wider, but it was much longer as well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A quality JHP will reliably create a larger wound channel compared to an FMJ, and will give you all the penetration that you need. I believe that JHPs are overall a better choice than FMJs (especially for 9mm). The 9mm HST and Ranger-T will often expand to 0.75"+, and that's a massive increase compared to the size of the bullet as it's leaving the barrel (0.355"). Perhaps this is an "interesting" bullet design, but I think I'll stick with the tried-and-true Winchester Ranger-T series (the 127gr +P+ RA9TA is my personal fav). These aren't typical FMJs, though. If you watched the video, you'd see that these Underwood bullets outperformed a 124-grain Federal HST - widely regarded as one of the best JHPs. Not only was the wound track wider, but it was much longer as well. There are no studies linking the diameter of the "wound track" in ballistic gel to human soft tissue. The only one in existence is about penetration. And longer wound tracks are not necessarily desirable. Over penetration is one of the main reasons JHPs are preferred to FMJ. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:36:23 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
two things: tissue destruction and blood loss. You may not get an instant stop, but more damage usually means you will get a stop at some point. I want as much damage from each shot as possible. Then there is the penetration issue that is lessened by the use of hollow points, but that's a secondary consideration - important, but secondary. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If CNS shots are the only guaranteed way of stopping a target, what difference does it make if its a hollow point or FMJ. Also, I should clarify Im talking about handgun rounds in a non-LEO defensive role. two things: tissue destruction and blood loss. You may not get an instant stop, but more damage usually means you will get a stop at some point. I want as much damage from each shot as possible. Then there is the penetration issue that is lessened by the use of hollow points, but that's a secondary consideration - important, but secondary. Ill see your blood loss and raise you: Lets pretend your .356 HP expands to .430 with one entry hole Ill say the .356 FMJ completely penetrates the target now making two .356 holes... .712 worth of leaks > .430 worth of leaks.... Tissue destruction, well, not as prevalent in service caliber handgun rounds as it is in rifle calibers. Sure there is temporary wound cavity, still not great with common handgun rounds....
FWIW- I carry 124 gr Gold dots in my pistol. Im simply playing devils advocate for the sake of GD, please, don't let anyones FEELS get hurt. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:36:29 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP, you can use something like the Hornaday XTPs, which are actually hunting rounds originally, and designed to penetrate more than they are to open big. They don't open as large as some, will penetrate deeper than most, but still, my average on animals is about .750 diameter, from a .45acp 230gr. I opted for XTPs in 10mm, main use would be hogs. I reckon they'd work alright on humans too. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:38:43 PM EDT
[#45]
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:38:51 PM EDT
[#46]
This is my carry round in my 10mm , fuck them and everyone around them
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:41:13 PM EDT
[#47]
I watched the video, and I think he's confusing temporary cavity and permanent cavity, pointing to the TC and calling it PC. Regardless, the resultant total cavity is simply going to be proportional to the kinetic energy of each round - if this 90 grain bullet has more KE than the HST, then it is going to leave behind a larger cavity volume. But, not all cavity is created equal. PC is, in general, going to be more effective than TC. And, I think the HST is going to produce more PC.
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:42:57 PM EDT
[#48]
mmm 10mm, not this pic, but wicked anyway
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:48:52 PM EDT
[#49]
The Underwood I have are 140 Gr and say 1500 fps, will check the mv in the future, looks the same as the post above
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Posted: 9/1/2015 8:55:53 PM EDT
[#50]
Black Talons or your dead every time
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