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Posted: 8/30/2015 2:57:30 PM EDT
[#1]
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Its done regularly in fact. But we have gone from individual weapons to belt feds now. Hey, krauty wants to rock his 600 417s, good on him. Must be based upon all their recent combat experience. I expect the rest of the world to go 7.62 soon. Its inherent superiority its intuitively obvious. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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1000 meters with a 5.56? Been done. By at least one member of this site. Its done regularly in fact. But we have gone from individual weapons to belt feds now. Hey, krauty wants to rock his 600 417s, good on him. Must be based upon all their recent combat experience. I expect the rest of the world to go 7.62 soon. Its inherent superiority its intuitively obvious. Source to this? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 3:00:32 PM EDT
[#2]
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The G36 belongs in a plastic garbage can. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wonder where their old G36 rifles will go. Lithuania uses G36s and G3s, wonder if they'll get these G36s to replace those clunky G3s. They've been giving a shit ton of G36s to the Kurds for use in Iraq against ISIS. Poor Kurds.  The G36 belongs in a plastic garbage can. Recycling bin. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 3:06:41 PM EDT
[#3]
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It' happens. Thanks for not being a prick, I suppose I have made enough of an ass out of myself in here. Got defensive and got stupid I guess. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What's funny? You aren't on here much, but we know the bios of the guys on here pretty well. you have an artillery officer, an infantry officer, a guy who makes custom rifles for no shit .gov shooters (not your standard LEOs), and any number of former and current infantryman. You don't know the bios of the guys on here so when you lecture them its funny. It' happens. Thanks for not being a prick, I suppose I have made enough of an ass out of myself in here. Got defensive and got stupid I guess. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 3:26:09 PM EDT
[#4]
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1000 meters with a 5.56? Been done. By at least one member of this site. Its done regularly in fact. But we have gone from individual weapons to belt feds now. Hey, krauty wants to rock his 600 417s, good on him. Must be based upon all their recent combat experience. I expect the rest of the world to go 7.62 soon. Its inherent superiority its intuitively obvious. Source to this? In competition? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 3:30:08 PM EDT
[#5]
1200 rifles will equip all of their front line troops? Oh how the mighty have fallen.
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Posted: 8/30/2015 3:36:41 PM EDT
[#6]
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1200 rifles will equip all of their front line troops? Oh how the mighty have fallen. A mighty Germany embarrasses them. Plus they can spend more on social projects if they can get the U.S. to subsidize their defense. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 3:39:19 PM EDT
[#7]
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In competition? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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1000 meters with a 5.56? Been done. By at least one member of this site. Its done regularly in fact. But we have gone from individual weapons to belt feds now. Hey, krauty wants to rock his 600 417s, good on him. Must be based upon all their recent combat experience. I expect the rest of the world to go 7.62 soon. Its inherent superiority its intuitively obvious. Source to this? In competition? So you have no sources relating to combat? As for competition, are 77 SMK mag loaded 5.56 rounds the standard load used for 1,000 yard/meter shooting? I thought it was single fed 80 SMK when 5.56 was used. What range does MK262 go subsonic? At PRS matches, you generally don't see many 5.56 guns unless the rules specify a class for it, 223/5.56 is outclassed by basically everything. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 3:44:16 PM EDT
[#8]
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1200 rifles will equip all of their front line troops? Oh how the mighty have fallen. The Bundeswehr has over 180,000 soldiers in it, way more front line troops than 1,200. There is probably more to this story than the article proposes. For instance, could it be they only bought enough to use for deploying troops in Afghanistan? They have 850 troops supporting ISAF, as of May 2015. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 3:49:02 PM EDT
[#9]
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The Bundeswehr has over 180,000 soldiers in it, way more front line troops than 1,200. There is probably more to this story than the article proposes. For instance, could it be they only bought enough to use for deploying troops in Afghanistan? They have 850 troops supporting ISAF, as of May 2015. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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1200 rifles will equip all of their front line troops? Oh how the mighty have fallen. The Bundeswehr has over 180,000 soldiers in it, way more front line troops than 1,200. There is probably more to this story than the article proposes. For instance, could it be they only bought enough to use for deploying troops in Afghanistan? They have 850 troops supporting ISAF, as of May 2015. I suspect this is correct. This is an Afghan thing only. If I wasn't walking anywhere, I could see it. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 3:52:31 PM EDT
[#10]
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So you have no sources relating to combat? As for competition, are 77 SMK mag loaded 5.56 rounds the standard load used for 1,000 yard/meter shooting? I thought it was single fed 80 SMK when 5.56 was used. What range does MK262 go subsonic? At PRS matches, you generally don't see many 5.56 guns unless the rules specify a class for it, 223/5.56 is outclassed by basically everything. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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1000 meters with a 5.56? Been done. By at least one member of this site. Its done regularly in fact. But we have gone from individual weapons to belt feds now. Hey, krauty wants to rock his 600 417s, good on him. Must be based upon all their recent combat experience. I expect the rest of the world to go 7.62 soon. Its inherent superiority its intuitively obvious. Source to this? In competition? So you have no sources relating to combat? As for competition, are 77 SMK mag loaded 5.56 rounds the standard load used for 1,000 yard/meter shooting? I thought it was single fed 80 SMK when 5.56 was used. What range does MK262 go subsonic? At PRS matches, you generally don't see many 5.56 guns unless the rules specify a class for it, 223/5.56 is outclassed by basically everything. When does 80 go sub sonic? If we are going to talk issue rounds and all. 7.62X51 is outclassed by everything, to include 5.56. 5.56 is getting a lot better a lot faster than 7.62. The point is at 1000 yards they are both subsonic and not doing much of anything other than poking holes in flesh. which is enough. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 3:53:20 PM EDT
[#11]
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The Bundeswehr has over 180,000 soldiers in it, way more front line troops than 1,200. There is probably more to this story than the article proposes. For instance, could it be they only bought enough to use for deploying troops in Afghanistan? They have 850 troops supporting ISAF, as of May 2015. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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1200 rifles will equip all of their front line troops? Oh how the mighty have fallen. The Bundeswehr has over 180,000 soldiers in it, way more front line troops than 1,200. There is probably more to this story than the article proposes. For instance, could it be they only bought enough to use for deploying troops in Afghanistan? They have 850 troops supporting ISAF, as of May 2015. I've only seen their transit PSD with rifles. Usually the 36c. Everybody else has the afrrika corps hat and a pistol of some kind. They do put on the shnoozensneer here so they have real guns somewhere. I'm gonna try to figure out where so I can go do it. My 416 shorty was super gay. Maybe it was all the seal build up that led to certain disappointment. Back to a real rifle now. Thank god. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 3:53:20 PM EDT
[#12]
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So you have no sources relating to combat? As for competition, are 77 SMK mag loaded 5.56 rounds the standard load used for 1,000 yard/meter shooting? I thought it was single fed 80 SMK when 5.56 was used. What range does MK262 go subsonic? At PRS matches, you generally don't see many 5.56 guns unless the rules specify a class for it, 223/5.56 is outclassed by basically everything. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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1000 meters with a 5.56? Been done. By at least one member of this site. Its done regularly in fact. But we have gone from individual weapons to belt feds now. Hey, krauty wants to rock his 600 417s, good on him. Must be based upon all their recent combat experience. I expect the rest of the world to go 7.62 soon. Its inherent superiority its intuitively obvious. Source to this? In competition? So you have no sources relating to combat? As for competition, are 77 SMK mag loaded 5.56 rounds the standard load used for 1,000 yard/meter shooting? I thought it was single fed 80 SMK when 5.56 was used. What range does MK262 go subsonic? At PRS matches, you generally don't see many 5.56 guns unless the rules specify a class for it, 223/5.56 is outclassed by basically everything. .308s suck out loud at PRS matches too. Unless you want a special prize for coming in 50th. 
I don't really want to out my source, but it's not competition. Transonic or not, hits can still be made a loooong way out there. Shot is shot. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 3:54:54 PM EDT
[#13]
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So you have no sources relating to combat? As for competition, are 77 SMK mag loaded 5.56 rounds the standard load used for 1,000 yard/meter shooting? I thought it was single fed 80 SMK when 5.56 was used. What range does MK262 go subsonic? At PRS matches, you generally don't see many 5.56 guns unless the rules specify a class for it, 223/5.56 is outclassed by basically everything. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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1000 meters with a 5.56? Been done. By at least one member of this site. Its done regularly in fact. But we have gone from individual weapons to belt feds now. Hey, krauty wants to rock his 600 417s, good on him. Must be based upon all their recent combat experience. I expect the rest of the world to go 7.62 soon. Its inherent superiority its intuitively obvious. Source to this? In competition? So you have no sources relating to combat? As for competition, are 77 SMK mag loaded 5.56 rounds the standard load used for 1,000 yard/meter shooting? I thought it was single fed 80 SMK when 5.56 was used. What range does MK262 go subsonic? At PRS matches, you generally don't see many 5.56 guns unless the rules specify a class for it, 223/5.56 is outclassed by basically everything. Hit up hoover bro, didnt he just put up a video of him shooting 1k with an ar15 at night? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 4:04:47 PM EDT
[#14]
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I don't really want to out my source, but it's not competition. Transonic or not, hits can still be made a loooong way out there. Shot is shot. What were you primarily building 10 years ago before 6/6.5/7mm bullets became all rage? 5.56 precision rifles, or 308? If you were attending a PRS match out to 1,000 meters or a tad more, unknown distance shooting, would you rather have a precision rifle chambered in 308 or 5.56? I've read your posts about your buddy making the ultra long kill with 5.56, I'm not calling him a liar. Crazy shit happens, 1 in a million shots. I've also read about an Army sniper making a first round hit/kill at 1250 meters with an M24/M118LR. The longest kill with a rifle was done with an AI .338 at 2,475 m, which is a bit further than the max effective from even the manufacturer's specs (1500 meters). Simply put, a rare instance of 5.56 being able to deliver accurate and lethal fires at 1,000, does not suddenly mean those weapons new max effective range is changed. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 4:12:50 PM EDT
[#15]
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When does 80 go sub sonic? If we are going to talk issue rounds and all. 7.62X51 is outclassed by everything, to include 5.56. 5.56 is getting a lot better a lot faster than 7.62. The point is at 1000 yards they are both subsonic and not doing much of anything other than poking holes in flesh. which is enough. While it depends on atmospherics, expect MK262 and M118LR to go subsonic around 900 yards. IIRC, the 80s loaded to mag length lose any advantage, but I no longer have access to my source for this. And yes, all you need to do is make holes at extended ranges. You can worry about terminal effect when you're at 25 meters. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 4:13:40 PM EDT
[#16]
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When does 80 go sub sonic? If we are going to talk issue rounds and all. 7.62X51 is outclassed by everything, to include 5.56. 5.56 is getting a lot better a lot faster than 7.62. The point is at 1000 yards they are both subsonic and not doing much of anything other than poking holes in flesh. which is enough. The only issued 5.56 ammo than can come even remotely close to M80 ball external ballistics at longer ranges is Mk262. And a 77 Nosler OTM bullet isn't going to be punching through cover the way a 7.62 tougher bullet that will have more energy, equaling more penetration. While this might not matter if the bullet hits hadji wearing no armor but if he's hiding behind a wall, mound of dirt, tree, or car, it does matter. The 7.62 will be able to chew through that a lot easier than an sort of load in 5.56, minus M995. Most times people are taking cover, so its nice to have a round that can actually penetrate it, which 5.56 sucks at (aside from M855A1 within 300 meters and M995, the holy grail of DODICs, almost impossible to find). |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 4:15:59 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is already talk of scaling LSAT to use a 6.5MM bullet, which could replace the M249, M240, and Mk48. Ought'a be very interesting to see how the DoD goes with the LSAT, and what influence it'll have on other nations when it comes to adopting a new cartridge. Plus, I really do want to see the ballistics chart of that baby.  |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 4:16:31 PM EDT
[#18]
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What were you primarily building 10 years ago before 6/6.5/7mm bullets became all rage? 5.56 precision rifles, or 308? If you were attending a PRS match out to 1,000 meters or a tad more, unknown distance shooting, would you rather have a precision rifle chambered in 308 or 5.56? I've read your posts about your buddy making the ultra long kill with 5.56, I'm not calling him a liar. Crazy shit happens, 1 million shots. I've also read about an Army sniper making a single round kill at 1250 meters with an M24/M118LR. The longest kill with a rifle was done with an AI .338 at 2,475 m, which is a bit further than the max effective from even the manufacturer's specs (1500 meters). Simply put, a rare instance of 7.62 being able to deliver accurate and lethal fires at 1,000, does not suddenly mean those weapons new max effective range is changed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't really want to out my source, but it's not competition. Transonic or not, hits can still be made a loooong way out there. Shot is shot. What were you primarily building 10 years ago before 6/6.5/7mm bullets became all rage? 5.56 precision rifles, or 308? If you were attending a PRS match out to 1,000 meters or a tad more, unknown distance shooting, would you rather have a precision rifle chambered in 308 or 5.56? I've read your posts about your buddy making the ultra long kill with 5.56, I'm not calling him a liar. Crazy shit happens, 1 million shots. I've also read about an Army sniper making a single round kill at 1250 meters with an M24/M118LR. The longest kill with a rifle was done with an AI .338 at 2,475 m, which is a bit further than the max effective from even the manufacturer's specs (1500 meters). Simply put, a rare instance of 7.62 being able to deliver accurate and lethal fires at 1,000, does not suddenly mean those weapons new max effective range is changed. you can put a beaten zone out with a 249 just like a 240. 7.62 gives you better tracers. Put a 6X ACOG and a BDC on a SAW and you can do nearly everything you can with a 240. none of which has anything to do with the point of the article. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 4:23:18 PM EDT
[#19]
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What were you primarily building 10 years ago before 6/6.5/7mm bullets became all rage? 5.56 precision rifles, or 308? If you were attending a PRS match out to 1,000 meters or a tad more, unknown distance shooting, would you rather have a precision rifle chambered in 308 or 5.56? I've read your posts about your buddy making the ultra long kill with 5.56, I'm not calling him a liar. Crazy shit happens, 1 million shots. I've also read about an Army sniper making a single round kill at 1250 meters with an M24/M118LR. The longest kill with a rifle was done with an AI .338 at 2,475 m, which is a bit further than the max effective from even the manufacturer's specs (1500 meters). Simply put, a rare instance of 5.56 being able to deliver accurate and lethal fires at 1,000, does not suddenly mean those weapons new max effective range is changed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't really want to out my source, but it's not competition. Transonic or not, hits can still be made a loooong way out there. Shot is shot. What were you primarily building 10 years ago before 6/6.5/7mm bullets became all rage? 5.56 precision rifles, or 308? If you were attending a PRS match out to 1,000 meters or a tad more, unknown distance shooting, would you rather have a precision rifle chambered in 308 or 5.56? I've read your posts about your buddy making the ultra long kill with 5.56, I'm not calling him a liar. Crazy shit happens, 1 million shots. I've also read about an Army sniper making a single round kill at 1250 meters with an M24/M118LR. The longest kill with a rifle was done with an AI .338 at 2,475 m, which is a bit further than the max effective from even the manufacturer's specs (1500 meters). Simply put, a rare instance of 5.56 being able to deliver accurate and lethal fires at 1,000, does not suddenly mean those weapons new max effective range is changed. Occurrences are only rare until people start doing that thing. I recall when Cleckner at GPS came to the realization that 5.56mm will get the job done at distance. If only we were still putting those rifles into the field in proper numbers. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 4:27:15 PM EDT
[#20]
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The only issued 5.56 ammo than can come even remotely close to M80 ball external ballistics at longer ranges is Mk262. And a 77 Nosler OTM bullet isn't going to be punching through cover the way a 7.62 tougher bullet that will have more energy, equaling more penetration. While this might not matter if the bullet hits hadji wearing no armor but if he's hiding behind a wall, mound of dirt, tree, or car, it does matter. The 7.62 will be able to chew through that a lot easier than an sort of load in 5.56, minus M995. Most times people are taking cover, so its nice to have a round that can actually penetrate it, which 5.56 sucks at (aside from M855A1 within 300 meters and M995, the holy grail of DODICs, almost impossible to find). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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When does 80 go sub sonic? If we are going to talk issue rounds and all. 7.62X51 is outclassed by everything, to include 5.56. 5.56 is getting a lot better a lot faster than 7.62. The point is at 1000 yards they are both subsonic and not doing much of anything other than poking holes in flesh. which is enough. The only issued 5.56 ammo than can come even remotely close to M80 ball external ballistics at longer ranges is Mk262. And a 77 Nosler OTM bullet isn't going to be punching through cover the way a 7.62 tougher bullet that will have more energy, equaling more penetration. While this might not matter if the bullet hits hadji wearing no armor but if he's hiding behind a wall, mound of dirt, tree, or car, it does matter. The 7.62 will be able to chew through that a lot easier than an sort of load in 5.56, minus M995. Most times people are taking cover, so its nice to have a round that can actually penetrate it, which 5.56 sucks at (aside from M855A1 within 300 meters and M995, the holy grail of DODICs, almost impossible to find). You might want to run the ballistics on M855 compared to M80. The .30 has a margin on it for windage, as it does with MK262, but the elevation numbers aren't a win. Also, utility means a lot more than barrier penetration at distance. Things like weight (ammunition and rifle), capacity, compatibility, etc. factor into the overall experience. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 4:28:23 PM EDT
[#21]
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you can put a beaten zone out with a 249 just like a 240. 7.62 gives you better tracers. Put a 6X ACOG and a BDC on a SAW and you can do nearly everything you can with a 240. none of which has anything to do with the point of the article. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't really want to out my source, but it's not competition. Transonic or not, hits can still be made a loooong way out there. Shot is shot. What were you primarily building 10 years ago before 6/6.5/7mm bullets became all rage? 5.56 precision rifles, or 308? If you were attending a PRS match out to 1,000 meters or a tad more, unknown distance shooting, would you rather have a precision rifle chambered in 308 or 5.56? I've read your posts about your buddy making the ultra long kill with 5.56, I'm not calling him a liar. Crazy shit happens, 1 million shots. I've also read about an Army sniper making a single round kill at 1250 meters with an M24/M118LR. The longest kill with a rifle was done with an AI .338 at 2,475 m, which is a bit further than the max effective from even the manufacturer's specs (1500 meters). Simply put, a rare instance of 7.62 being able to deliver accurate and lethal fires at 1,000, does not suddenly mean those weapons new max effective range is changed. you can put a beaten zone out with a 249 just like a 240. 7.62 gives you better tracers. Put a 6X ACOG and a BDC on a SAW and you can do nearly everything you can with a 240. none of which has anything to do with the point of the article. No, it has nothing to do with the article. Its about you claiming that long range machine gunnery with 5.56 is as effective as 7.62. If you want to argue mobility or creating a beaten zone or whatever else, that's one thing. But once those bullets hit something, terminal ballistics is completely different. You're claim that they are identical in performance aside from tracer burnout is grossly incorrect. There is a reason M240s are still used today, its because they can do things that 5.56 LMGs and SAWs can't, besides tracer burnout, which no one really cares about anymore since MGOs exist. Did you ignore 18 pages of the Lost Art of Machine Gunnery thread? Because you tried to make this same claim there and got corrected then too. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 4:34:18 PM EDT
[#22]
We often took heavy SAF from 18+ PAX. It kept our heads down pretty well since there was normally 2-3 RPKs with the rest having AKs. They also somehow acquired a dushka that was putting rather large and deep holes in our armored vehicles. (No pass through) but I think that's only due to the engagement range, had they been closer, might have been a different story.
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Posted: 8/30/2015 4:41:42 PM EDT
[#23]
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No, it has nothing to do with the article. Its about you claiming that long range machine gunnery with 5.56 is as effective as 7.62. If you want to argue mobility or creating a beaten zone or whatever else, that's one thing. But once those bullets hit something, terminal ballistics is completely different. You're claim that they are identical in performance aside from tracer burnout is grossly incorrect. There is a reason M240s are still used today, its because they can do things that 5.56 LMGs and SAWs can't, besides tracer burnout, which no one really cares about anymore since MGOs exist. Did you ignore 18 pages of the Lost Art of Machine Gunnery thread? Because you tried to make this same claim there and got corrected then too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't really want to out my source, but it's not competition. Transonic or not, hits can still be made a loooong way out there. Shot is shot. What were you primarily building 10 years ago before 6/6.5/7mm bullets became all rage? 5.56 precision rifles, or 308? If you were attending a PRS match out to 1,000 meters or a tad more, unknown distance shooting, would you rather have a precision rifle chambered in 308 or 5.56? I've read your posts about your buddy making the ultra long kill with 5.56, I'm not calling him a liar. Crazy shit happens, 1 million shots. I've also read about an Army sniper making a single round kill at 1250 meters with an M24/M118LR. The longest kill with a rifle was done with an AI .338 at 2,475 m, which is a bit further than the max effective from even the manufacturer's specs (1500 meters). Simply put, a rare instance of 7.62 being able to deliver accurate and lethal fires at 1,000, does not suddenly mean those weapons new max effective range is changed. you can put a beaten zone out with a 249 just like a 240. 7.62 gives you better tracers. Put a 6X ACOG and a BDC on a SAW and you can do nearly everything you can with a 240. none of which has anything to do with the point of the article. No, it has nothing to do with the article. Its about you claiming that long range machine gunnery with 5.56 is as effective as 7.62. If you want to argue mobility or creating a beaten zone or whatever else, that's one thing. But once those bullets hit something, terminal ballistics is completely different. You're claim that they are identical in performance aside from tracer burnout is grossly incorrect. There is a reason M240s are still used today, its because they can do things that 5.56 LMGs and SAWs can't, besides tracer burnout, which no one really cares about anymore since MGOs exist. Did you ignore 18 pages of the Lost Art of Machine Gunnery thread? Because you tried to make this same claim there and got corrected then too. terminal ballistics in 5.56 or 7.62 is irrelevant at 800Ms. In that same thread the same 70 year old talking points were repeated. the repetition of incorrect assumptions does not lend them legitimacy. 240s are in use today because we have them and the military is slow to adapt. This is the same military that issued out M14s as a solution to "not enough range" when all they needed were Mk12s. Grown ups who can choose, generally don't choose 7.62. Appeal to authority when it comes to decisions of the military holds no weight with me. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 4:42:18 PM EDT
[#24]
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We often took heavy SAF from 18+ PAX. It kept our heads down pretty well since there was normally 2-3 RPKs with the rest having AKs. They also somehow acquired a dushka that was putting rather large and deep holes in our armored vehicles. (No pass through) but I think that's only due to the engagement range, had they been closer, might have been a different story. RPKs? Didn't see a lot of those in afghanistan. saw a shit load of PKMs however. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 4:46:48 PM EDT
[#25]
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Occurrences are only rare until people start doing that thing. I recall when Cleckner at GPS came to the realization that 5.56mm will get the job done at distance. If only we were still putting those rifles into the field in proper numbers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't really want to out my source, but it's not competition. Transonic or not, hits can still be made a loooong way out there. Shot is shot. What were you primarily building 10 years ago before 6/6.5/7mm bullets became all rage? 5.56 precision rifles, or 308? If you were attending a PRS match out to 1,000 meters or a tad more, unknown distance shooting, would you rather have a precision rifle chambered in 308 or 5.56? I've read your posts about your buddy making the ultra long kill with 5.56, I'm not calling him a liar. Crazy shit happens, 1 million shots. I've also read about an Army sniper making a single round kill at 1250 meters with an M24/M118LR. The longest kill with a rifle was done with an AI .338 at 2,475 m, which is a bit further than the max effective from even the manufacturer's specs (1500 meters). Simply put, a rare instance of 5.56 being able to deliver accurate and lethal fires at 1,000, does not suddenly mean those weapons new max effective range is changed. Occurrences are only rare until people start doing that thing. I recall when Cleckner at GPS came to the realization that 5.56mm will get the job done at distance. If only we were still putting those rifles into the field in proper numbers. For 1,000 meter precision shooting, no one is rallying behind 5.56. Hardly anyone is still rallying behind 308, even with M118LR or better ammo, because of the popularity of either 6/6.5/7mm rounds for PRS comps, or because of .300 Winmag or .338 Lapua for the mil community. But 7.62x51 still has a major advantage over 5.56 at long ranges, especially in wind resistance and barrier penetration. When it comes to terminal ballistics, find me any 5.56 load that can mimic the performance, external or terminal, of a Berger Juggernaut or Sierra TMK. For issued ammo, Mk262 or Mk3118 isn't going to beat out M118LR or Mk316. When it comes to small arms for the average grunt, I'd definitely say that them shooting 5.56 beats 7.62, as none have a weapon system even capable of making regular hits out to 800-1000. But it really is debateable when it comes down to DMRs, and stating a 5.56 M249 beats a 7.62 M240 in anything but weight is just hogwash. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 4:52:37 PM EDT
[#26]
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You might want to run the ballistics on M855 compared to M80. The .30 has a margin on it for windage, as it does with MK262, but the elevation numbers aren't a win. Also, utility means a lot more than barrier penetration at distance. Things like weight (ammunition and rifle), capacity, compatibility, etc. factor into the overall experience. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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When does 80 go sub sonic? If we are going to talk issue rounds and all. 7.62X51 is outclassed by everything, to include 5.56. 5.56 is getting a lot better a lot faster than 7.62. The point is at 1000 yards they are both subsonic and not doing much of anything other than poking holes in flesh. which is enough. The only issued 5.56 ammo than can come even remotely close to M80 ball external ballistics at longer ranges is Mk262. And a 77 Nosler OTM bullet isn't going to be punching through cover the way a 7.62 tougher bullet that will have more energy, equaling more penetration. While this might not matter if the bullet hits hadji wearing no armor but if he's hiding behind a wall, mound of dirt, tree, or car, it does matter. The 7.62 will be able to chew through that a lot easier than an sort of load in 5.56, minus M995. Most times people are taking cover, so its nice to have a round that can actually penetrate it, which 5.56 sucks at (aside from M855A1 within 300 meters and M995, the holy grail of DODICs, almost impossible to find). You might want to run the ballistics on M855 compared to M80. The .30 has a margin on it for windage, as it does with MK262, but the elevation numbers aren't a win. Also, utility means a lot more than barrier penetration at distance. Things like weight (ammunition and rifle), capacity, compatibility, etc. factor into the overall experience. Enemy is hiding in some mountainous brush and crevices, 900 meters away from you, firing up your position. To your immediate left is a M240 on a bipod with 100 round belt and MGO, firing M80. To your right there is a M249 PIP, 14.5" barrel, MGO, firing M855. Which do you jump on to engage the enemy? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 4:55:30 PM EDT
[#27]
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5.56 is getting a lot better a lot faster than 7.62. This is the most important point in this debate. If someone made a modern load and bullet for 7.62 it would seem a lot more appealing. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 4:57:11 PM EDT
[#28]
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RPKs? Didn't see a lot of those in afghanistan. saw a shit load of PKMs however. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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We often took heavy SAF from 18+ PAX. It kept our heads down pretty well since there was normally 2-3 RPKs with the rest having AKs. They also somehow acquired a dushka that was putting rather large and deep holes in our armored vehicles. (No pass through) but I think that's only due to the engagement range, had they been closer, might have been a different story. RPKs? Didn't see a lot of those in afghanistan. saw a shit load of PKMs however. Maybe that was it, it's been a while and my memory stinks. Best I recall there cycle rate was way the hell up there. I could google it and figure it out I'm sure. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 4:58:11 PM EDT
[#29]
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For 1,000 meter precision shooting, no one is rallying behind 5.56. Hardly anyone is still rallying behind 308, even with M118LR or better ammo, because of the popularity of either 6/6.5/7mm rounds for PRS comps, or because of .300 Winmag or .338 Lapua for the mil community. But 7.62x51 still has a major advantage over 5.56 at long ranges, especially in wind resistance and barrier penetration. When it comes to terminal ballistics, find me any 5.56 load that can mimic the performance, external or terminal, of a Berger Juggernaut or Sierra TMK. For issued ammo, Mk262 or Mk3118 isn't going to beat out M118LR or Mk316. When it comes to small arms for the average grunt, I'd definitely say that them shooting 5.56 beats 7.62, as none have a weapon system even capable of making regular hits out to 800-1000. But it really is debateable when it comes down to DMRs, and stating a 5.56 M249 beats a 7.62 M240 in anything but weight is just hogwash. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't really want to out my source, but it's not competition. Transonic or not, hits can still be made a loooong way out there. Shot is shot. What were you primarily building 10 years ago before 6/6.5/7mm bullets became all rage? 5.56 precision rifles, or 308? If you were attending a PRS match out to 1,000 meters or a tad more, unknown distance shooting, would you rather have a precision rifle chambered in 308 or 5.56? I've read your posts about your buddy making the ultra long kill with 5.56, I'm not calling him a liar. Crazy shit happens, 1 million shots. I've also read about an Army sniper making a single round kill at 1250 meters with an M24/M118LR. The longest kill with a rifle was done with an AI .338 at 2,475 m, which is a bit further than the max effective from even the manufacturer's specs (1500 meters). Simply put, a rare instance of 5.56 being able to deliver accurate and lethal fires at 1,000, does not suddenly mean those weapons new max effective range is changed. Occurrences are only rare until people start doing that thing. I recall when Cleckner at GPS came to the realization that 5.56mm will get the job done at distance. If only we were still putting those rifles into the field in proper numbers. For 1,000 meter precision shooting, no one is rallying behind 5.56. Hardly anyone is still rallying behind 308, even with M118LR or better ammo, because of the popularity of either 6/6.5/7mm rounds for PRS comps, or because of .300 Winmag or .338 Lapua for the mil community. But 7.62x51 still has a major advantage over 5.56 at long ranges, especially in wind resistance and barrier penetration. When it comes to terminal ballistics, find me any 5.56 load that can mimic the performance, external or terminal, of a Berger Juggernaut or Sierra TMK. For issued ammo, Mk262 or Mk3118 isn't going to beat out M118LR or Mk316. When it comes to small arms for the average grunt, I'd definitely say that them shooting 5.56 beats 7.62, as none have a weapon system even capable of making regular hits out to 800-1000. But it really is debateable when it comes down to DMRs, and stating a 5.56 M249 beats a 7.62 M240 in anything but weight is just hogwash. I guess we need to decide on a goal post. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:00:32 PM EDT
[#30]
Ha it was PKMs that's the 54R bastard we really hated I was talking about earlier.
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:01:51 PM EDT
[#31]
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Enemy is hiding in some mountainous brush and crevices, 900 meters away from you, firing up your position. To your immediate left is a M240 on a bipod with 100 round belt and MGO, firing M80. To your right there is a M249 PIP, 14.5" barrel, MGO, firing M855. Which do you jump on to engage the enemy? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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When does 80 go sub sonic? If we are going to talk issue rounds and all. 7.62X51 is outclassed by everything, to include 5.56. 5.56 is getting a lot better a lot faster than 7.62. The point is at 1000 yards they are both subsonic and not doing much of anything other than poking holes in flesh. which is enough. The only issued 5.56 ammo than can come even remotely close to M80 ball external ballistics at longer ranges is Mk262. And a 77 Nosler OTM bullet isn't going to be punching through cover the way a 7.62 tougher bullet that will have more energy, equaling more penetration. While this might not matter if the bullet hits hadji wearing no armor but if he's hiding behind a wall, mound of dirt, tree, or car, it does matter. The 7.62 will be able to chew through that a lot easier than an sort of load in 5.56, minus M995. Most times people are taking cover, so its nice to have a round that can actually penetrate it, which 5.56 sucks at (aside from M855A1 within 300 meters and M995, the holy grail of DODICs, almost impossible to find). You might want to run the ballistics on M855 compared to M80. The .30 has a margin on it for windage, as it does with MK262, but the elevation numbers aren't a win. Also, utility means a lot more than barrier penetration at distance. Things like weight (ammunition and rifle), capacity, compatibility, etc. factor into the overall experience. Enemy is hiding in some mountainous brush and crevices, 900 meters away from you, firing up your position. To your immediate left is a M240 on a bipod with 100 round belt and MGO, firing M80. To your right there is a M249 PIP, 14.5" barrel, MGO, firing M855. Which do you jump on to engage the enemy? Being right-handed, I'll probably reach right, unless I know that one weapon or the other has been problematic or is needed by someone else in a better position to use it. Ammunition on hand will be a factor, too. The one with the fresher belt, I suppose, or the one I've become more more famikiar with in recent practice, knowing zero and compensation off the top of my head. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:03:23 PM EDT
[#32]
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I guess we need to decide on a goal post. whatever gets us to 7.62X51. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:03:37 PM EDT
[#33]
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Ha it was PKMs that's the 54R bastard we really hated I was talking about earlier. Usually loaded without tracers? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:04:18 PM EDT
[#34]
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Ha it was PKMs that's the 54R bastard we really hated I was talking about earlier. PKMs are a bad mama jama. I generally don't like combloc guns, but I gained a healthy respect for PKMs in AFghanistan. Their lightweight tripod was decades ahead of us. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:05:14 PM EDT
[#35]
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Usually loaded without tracers? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ha it was PKMs that's the 54R bastard we really hated I was talking about earlier. Usually loaded without tracers? almost always in my experience. green tracers were a rare (thank god!) experience. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:07:54 PM EDT
[#36]
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terminal ballistics in 5.56 or 7.62 is irrelevant at 800Ms. In that same thread the same 70 year old talking points were repeated. the repetition of incorrect assumptions does not lend them legitimacy. 240s are in use today because we have them and the military is slow to adapt. This is the same military that issued out M14s as a solution to "not enough range" when all they needed were Mk12s. Grown ups who can choose, generally don't choose 7.62. Appeal to authority when it comes to decisions of the military holds no weight with me. The entire Army and Marine Corps infantry community disagrees greatly with you in pretty much everything you wrote, because dudes fucking love the M240 for its killing power, while no one says the same about the M249. As for the grown up comment, uou herped when you should have derped. You have really no idea what you are talking about. 
M110, SR25, Mk11 are rather popular in the military. I guess they don't subscribe to your opinion. They must not be truly professional snipers I guess. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:07:56 PM EDT
[#37]
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whatever gets us to 7.62X51. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I guess we need to decide on a goal post. whatever gets us to 7.62X51. Apparently, and even in Germany, too. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:12:25 PM EDT
[#38]
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Being right-handed, I'll probably reach right, unless I know that one weapon or the other has been problematic or is needed by someone else in a better position to use it. Ammunition on hand will be a factor, too. The one with the fresher belt, I suppose, or the one I've become more more famikiar with in recent practice, knowing zero and compensation off the top of my head. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Enemy is hiding in some mountainous brush and crevices, 900 meters away from you, firing up your position. To your immediate left is a M240 on a bipod with 100 round belt and MGO, firing M80. To your right there is a M249 PIP, 14.5" barrel, MGO, firing M855. Which do you jump on to engage the enemy? Being right-handed, I'll probably reach right, unless I know that one weapon or the other has been problematic or is needed by someone else in a better position to use it. Ammunition on hand will be a factor, too. The one with the fresher belt, I suppose, or the one I've become more more famikiar with in recent practice, knowing zero and compensation off the top of my head. Both weapons are in pristine conditions, perfectly zeroed, no issues whatsoever. 100 round belt in each gun, perfectly aligned. Weapons are perfectly clean and lubed properly. You're unit is being suppressed from 900 meters away by enemy hiding in the hills, behind cover. Friendly casualties are reported. Which do you grab? M249 or M240? This is a pretty simple question answered even in Benning OSUT or SOI ITB, let alone BNCOC or Squad Leader's Course. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:13:42 PM EDT
[#39]
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The entire Army and Marine Corps infantry community disagrees greatly with you in pretty much everything you wrote, because dudes fucking love the M240 for its killing power, while no one says the same about the M249. As for the grown up comment, uou herped when you should have derped. You have really no idea what you are talking about. https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xpa1/t51.2885-15/e15/10948988_748672585240407_27403285_n.jpg http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2090932!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_307/reaper25n-12-web.jpg http://earth66.com/img/A-Ranger-with-the-75th-sights-in-his-SR-25-sniper-rifle-during-marksmanship-training-at-a-range-in-Balkh-province-Afghanistan-Jan-20-2014.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/15/32/07/153207a35293c3bd3019983a52072646.jpg M110, SR25, Mk11 are rather popular in the military. I guess they don't subscribe to your opinion. They must not be truly professional snipers I guess. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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terminal ballistics in 5.56 or 7.62 is irrelevant at 800Ms. In that same thread the same 70 year old talking points were repeated. the repetition of incorrect assumptions does not lend them legitimacy. 240s are in use today because we have them and the military is slow to adapt. This is the same military that issued out M14s as a solution to "not enough range" when all they needed were Mk12s. Grown ups who can choose, generally don't choose 7.62. Appeal to authority when it comes to decisions of the military holds no weight with me. The entire Army and Marine Corps infantry community disagrees greatly with you in pretty much everything you wrote, because dudes fucking love the M240 for its killing power, while no one says the same about the M249. As for the grown up comment, uou herped when you should have derped. You have really no idea what you are talking about. https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xpa1/t51.2885-15/e15/10948988_748672585240407_27403285_n.jpg http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2090932!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_307/reaper25n-12-web.jpg http://earth66.com/img/A-Ranger-with-the-75th-sights-in-his-SR-25-sniper-rifle-during-marksmanship-training-at-a-range-in-Balkh-province-Afghanistan-Jan-20-2014.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/15/32/07/153207a35293c3bd3019983a52072646.jpg M110, SR25, Mk11 are rather popular in the military. I guess they don't subscribe to your opinion. They must not be truly professional snipers I guess. Popular or just what was issue? The guys in the photos didn't make the selection. Most guys with the Mk12 option went that way. I liked the Mk11 and M110 when they became the standard, because they were not the M24, but I carried the Mk12 without thinking twice about any of those rifles. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:15:35 PM EDT
[#40]
we got issued 110s, too.
The pictures you are posting are GP units who are stuck with what they are given. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:19:31 PM EDT
[#41]
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Popular or just what was issue? The guys in the photos didn't make the selection. Most guys with the Mk12 option went that way. I liked the Mk11 and M110 when they became the standard, because they were not the M24, but I carried the Mk12 without thinking twice about any of those rifles. So you don't think MARSOC, Rangers, or CAG can't get MK12s if they wanted to? That they are stuck with AR10s because nothing else is available? Of course they made the selection. A conventional sniper team has at least four rifles to choose from to carry, M40/M24/M2010/Mk13 bolt action, a SR25/M110/Mk11 AR10 rifle, a MK11/DM/M4 AR15, or a M107/M82 SASR. You think they can't pick and choose what they want to bring on missions? SOCOM snipers have even a more diverse array of weapons to choose, and amazingly enough, many choose 7.62. But I guess they are all ignorant. 
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:19:59 PM EDT
[#42]
Is there a slow change coming among militaries, at least in Europe? I just saw a report that Turkey is going with a 7.62x51 AR type rifle.
Reaction to a perception, or coincidence? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:21:00 PM EDT
[#43]
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we got issued 110s, too. The pictures you are posting are GP units who are stuck with what they are given. LOL, you have zero clue what you are talking about if you think those units have only one rifle per team, per man, and don't have Mk12s too that they could have brought. I'm guessing you left your M110s back in the truck with the M240s too, right? Don't need M110s in combat, 5.56 can do everything much better, right? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:25:14 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is there a slow change coming among militaries, at least in Europe? I just saw a report that Turkey is going with a 7.62x51 AR type rifle. Reaction to a perception, or coincidence? With Turkey, it makes sense that they stick with a 7.62x51mm cartridge considering their terrain. The Germans have a good reason to stick to a battle rifle, for what reason, we'll find out soon. There's a lot of this, and this and that.  |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:25:27 PM EDT
[#45]
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So you don't think MARSOC, Rangers, or CAG can't get MK12s if they wanted to? That they are stuck with AR10s because nothing else is available? Of course they made the selection. A conventional sniper team has at least four rifles to choose from to carry, M40/M24/M2010/Mk13 bolt action, a SR25/M110/Mk11 AR10 rifle, a MK11/DM/M4 AR15, or a M107/M82 SASR. You think they can't pick and choose what they want to bring on missions? SOCOM snipers have even a more diverse array of weapons to choose, and amazingly enough, many choose 7.62. But I guess they are all ignorant.
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Popular or just what was issue? The guys in the photos didn't make the selection. Most guys with the Mk12 option went that way. I liked the Mk11 and M110 when they became the standard, because they were not the M24, but I carried the Mk12 without thinking twice about any of those rifles. So you don't think MARSOC, Rangers, or CAG can't get MK12s if they wanted to? That they are stuck with AR10s because nothing else is available? Of course they made the selection. A conventional sniper team has at least four rifles to choose from to carry, M40/M24/M2010/Mk13 bolt action, a SR25/M110/Mk11 AR10 rifle, a MK11/DM/M4 AR15, or a M107/M82 SASR. You think they can't pick and choose what they want to bring on missions? SOCOM snipers have even a more diverse array of weapons to choose, and amazingly enough, many choose 7.62. But I guess they are all ignorant.
I'm sure all things are possible somewhere, but I don't think the Mk12 is available through the JOS at this point. Having been involved in T&E for the selection of similar rifles, I can tell you that Now carries what he's given and just goes and does good work. There's very little choice |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:37:47 PM EDT
[#46]
the Germans and Norwegians had G3s fielded in Afghanistan for many years...and not just as a DMR
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:37:50 PM EDT
[#47]
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I'm sure all things are possible somewhere, but I don't think the Mk12 is available through the JOS at this point. Having been involved in T&E for the selection of similar rifles, I can tell you that Now carries what he's given and just goes and does good work. There's very little choice Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Popular or just what was issue? The guys in the photos didn't make the selection. Most guys with the Mk12 option went that way. I liked the Mk11 and M110 when they became the standard, because they were not the M24, but I carried the Mk12 without thinking twice about any of those rifles. So you don't think MARSOC, Rangers, or CAG can't get MK12s if they wanted to? That they are stuck with AR10s because nothing else is available? Of course they made the selection. A conventional sniper team has at least four rifles to choose from to carry, M40/M24/M2010/Mk13 bolt action, a SR25/M110/Mk11 AR10 rifle, a MK11/DM/M4 AR15, or a M107/M82 SASR. You think they can't pick and choose what they want to bring on missions? SOCOM snipers have even a more diverse array of weapons to choose, and amazingly enough, many choose 7.62. But I guess they are all ignorant.
I'm sure all things are possible somewhere, but I don't think the Mk12 is available through the JOS at this point. Having been involved in T&E for the selection of similar rifles, I can tell you that Now carries what he's given and just goes and does good work. There's very little choice A conventional three man Army sniper team has 3 M4 carbine, 1 M320, 1M2010, 1 M110, 1 M107, often also has M14 or Mk12 the unit managed to get a hold of. Its not even possible to carry all the weapons at once.Who do you think decides which weapon the team members must carry? The golf bag system of rifle issue and selection has been part of the US military since they started issuing AR10s without turning in bolt guns, while also issuing out XM3, Mk12s, M25, M14EBR and other non MTOE rifles. SOCOM units have even a larger selection. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:39:56 PM EDT
[#48]
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With Turkey, it makes sense that they stick with a 7.62x51mm cartridge considering their terrain. The Germans have a good reason to stick to a battle rifle, for what reason, we'll find out soon. What you are showing me is ground with a lot of micro terrain that can be used to walk or crawl right up to a position, devoid of trees that I might want a larger bullet to penetrate. If I were to draw a picture of terrain that the 5.56 was made for it would be either that or a mature tropical jungle. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:41:37 PM EDT
[#49]
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Just send the g36 to America All the retards on hkpro will buy them at retarded inflated prices They are already pay retarded money for parts kits and paying even more money to have them built. It is a crazy amount of money for a shit gun. The parts kits run somewhere around $2k and some douchebag is charging about $1k to do the build. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:41:49 PM EDT
[#50]
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A conventional three man Army sniper team has 3 M4 carbine, 1 M320, 1M2010, 1 M110, 1 M107, often also has M14 or Mk12 the unit managed to get a hold of. Its not even possible to carry all the weapons at once.Who do you think decides which weapon the team members must carry? The golf bag system of rifle issue and selection has been part of the US military since they started issuing AR10s without turning in bolt guns, while also issuing out XM3, Mk12s, M25, M14EBR and other non MTOE rifles. SOCOM units have even a larger selection. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Popular or just what was issue? The guys in the photos didn't make the selection. Most guys with the Mk12 option went that way. I liked the Mk11 and M110 when they became the standard, because they were not the M24, but I carried the Mk12 without thinking twice about any of those rifles. So you don't think MARSOC, Rangers, or CAG can't get MK12s if they wanted to? That they are stuck with AR10s because nothing else is available? Of course they made the selection. A conventional sniper team has at least four rifles to choose from to carry, M40/M24/M2010/Mk13 bolt action, a SR25/M110/Mk11 AR10 rifle, a MK11/DM/M4 AR15, or a M107/M82 SASR. You think they can't pick and choose what they want to bring on missions? SOCOM snipers have even a more diverse array of weapons to choose, and amazingly enough, many choose 7.62. But I guess they are all ignorant.
I'm sure all things are possible somewhere, but I don't think the Mk12 is available through the JOS at this point. Having been involved in T&E for the selection of similar rifles, I can tell you that Now carries what he's given and just goes and does good work. There's very little choice A conventional three man Army sniper team has 3 M4 carbine, 1 M320, 1M2010, 1 M110, 1 M107, often also has M14 or Mk12 the unit managed to get a hold of. Its not even possible to carry all the weapons at once.Who do you think decides which weapon the team members must carry? The golf bag system of rifle issue and selection has been part of the US military since they started issuing AR10s without turning in bolt guns, while also issuing out XM3, Mk12s, M25, M14EBR and other non MTOE rifles. SOCOM units have even a larger selection. Yes, keep on schooling him on Army sniping programs.
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