Helsingin Sanomat newspaper broke the story today that FDF has accepted FN Herstal's offer for new patrol carbines for the FDF special forces. Reportedly the contract hasn't been signed yet, but citing unnamed sources, HS claims that it will be sealed in March. The exact version has not been named, except that it will be 5.56 NATO. Probably SCAR-L Standard. The same report states that FDF is also field testing FN Minimi and HK MG4 for 5.56 light machine gun companions for the new carbines. However, FDF is not buying the whole SCAR maintenance system at this time, which is kind of a hint that FDF doesn't want to go all in and in bed with FN for extensive future rifle needs.

The guys who have been test firing the SCAR-L (as well as Colt M4s and a bunch of other weapons for evaluations) and who will be fielding them foremost, are the Special Jaegers of Utti Jaeger Regiment (with airborne, airmobile and SF assets). These guys.

The Finnish Border Guard and the Bear Group (national police special operations unit) use G36, so this new choice is a little bit of a surprise. Beretta ARX-160 has also been viewed as the strongest possible future replacement of Valmet RK 62 and Sako RK 95, because Sako would then be in a good position to build them.

The main justification for a 5.56 carbine for Finnish SF units is to be able to interface with NATO ammunition logistics in common operations. Personally I welcome this small step in the eventual replacement of FDF main service rifles. I would expect Lapua GB541 (69 gr Scenar) to be the new service round for SF applications. Too expensive for main service round though.

In any case I see a future of lots of excellent Lapua military brass on my reloading bench also in this caliber and being able to take a personal AR to war should the need arise, without having to take all of my ammo stashes with me

Interesting.

I want a Valmet.

What is wrong with the Valmet/Sako?


They have excellent barrels, are highly accurate (I hear that they are 1 MOA at 100 yards), the RK-95 is supposed to be ergonomic, and it has the versatility of an AK.



Could Finland be getting ready to petition for NATO membership?

Valmet/SAKO hasn't made AKs in a long time. The RK95 stopped being produced sometime in the 90s IIRC.

I did not know that.


Well, following the same train of thought that OP was on, I hope any AK food that the Finnish government has gets surplused off nice and cheap.

The SCAR-L is an overpriced 556 thrower.

Go H or go home.

fired the 17L once... did not like the recoil.. the delayed recoil made me feel like i was waiting on the gun.

 

They're heavy as shit and modern designs make it look about as ergonomic as a brick, even with its improvements.
Also, there aren't many modern military firearms less versatile than an AK.

An AK is the same exact gun and fills the same exact niche no matter what barrel length or changes you make to it and every optic/accessory choice is a huge compromise.

Me too.  And a large crate full of Sako 7.62x39.

I always liked the M62 ventilated handguards.

They are no longer being manufactured with even some spare parts getting scarce. FDF is basically eating rifle stocks with training wear and not replacing them due to cut backs of reserve forces. OTOH reserve strenght has been reduced by hundreds of thousands from Cold War levels and there are enough early series Valmets for the support/local forces, so that the earlier third line rifles (Norinco 56 and East German MPi-KM series) have been retired.

So while there is no immediate need for new rifles, they are getting very old indeed. One of the main original motivations was to enable usage of captured 7.62x39 stocks from the Soviet Union, but those are slowly getting phased out even from Russian 2nd line reserve units. With this caliber, we are soon at a point where ammunition supply would become critical in a crisis if domestic production was damaged, because there is very little production of it remaining in Europe.

When it comes to 5.56 vs 7.62x39 in Finnish terrain and weather condtions, the heavier and more stable 7.62 has been considered much better in relative terms, because we got lots of conifers and other vegetation that easily destabilizes 55 and 62 gr 5.56. Even a feet of show does it, while 124 gr 7.62 just pushes through. The snow issue is particularly striking in winter training where you can still get nice hits to so called quarter and half targets (kneeling/prone) behind some snow cover, when shooting an AK, but with an AR you are just blowing up the snow and not having much of an effect.

But times and emphasis changes, now urban warfare is considered more important and Finnish buildings are built so strong due to the weather, that difference between 7.62 and 5.56 in penetration is not important. And that consideration being removed, 5.56 is a much better urban fighting round.

Also, equipping the old rifles with rails is going to cost an arm and a leg, with any new rifle/carbine being equipped with those as standard. FDF is indeed planning to put rails on most of the later model RK 95s, but the cost is making it unlikely most of the older RK 62s are getting rail upgrades.


It's always vehemently denied in Finnish military and political circles that any weapon or support system acquisition with a NSN is motivated at all by NATO compatibility. The unofficial consensus is that the NATO option is considered a very important aspect of all defense planning and goes beyond mere materiel provisioning.

Did they contract out the stock to the local middle school shop class?

 

Curious that they did not adopt an indigenous design

Considering that they're Finns, they were probably drunk when they made it.

Should have bought Diemaco C7s/C8s.

All the cool kids are.

FN Minime?  Im going to have to look that up

Finland hasn't designed entirely new assault rifles in two decades. While Sako probably still has the expertise, it would have to be a huge government sponsored project with subsidized production, because our leftist Foreign Ministry would sabotage any export efforts.

Beretta is moving Sako TRG production to Italy just because of this, Finland denies export licenses to countries another EU member Italy is free to export. This fact is unlikely to change now that Finland signed the UN ATT.

The same politics killed Valmet AKs as a trade article in the 70s, which is the reason IMI Galil in 5.56 made from Valmet drawings and initially with some Valmet machinery is an export success, even used by our brothers, the Estonians!

Valmet had a working 5.56 AK design ready to ship in 1969, several years before IMI, but could only make semi-auto versions of it for export, due to arms trade politics in Finland. Now we cannot export even bolt action rifles anymore!

It's a disgrace.

That's M249 for you.

FN fix the harmonics issue that destroyed optics?

Didn't that only happen with SCAR-H?

Finally some common sense.

I love my SCAR 17, but if it wasnt an "exotic" rifle. I dont know if it would still appeal to me. It's got some funny cheek weld issues that Im still trying to work through. But it is an awesome rifle.

Considering it's a SAKO it will also be a True 1 MOA rifle.

They are funny about that shit..... look like shit, shoot like a true Match rifle.

Only country more focused on Accuracy than the Swedes.... Swedes just require it also look pretty.

Using gas powered systems are extremely touchy in Ice tundras.


See: Alaska state police trials.

That thing is ugly as fuck.



 

Unless you're using a form of blowback, it'll be "gas-powered".

Short-stroke pistons, long-stroke pistons, tappets, stoner DI, true DI are all "gas-powered". The Alaska state police trials are only one data point. IIRC they went with the Galil. Canadians (experts in Arctic warfare) are using C7s and C8s. The Norwegians are using HK416s. Soviets went with the AK series.

Properly maintained guns will work in Arctic conditions. There are very specific lubes and moisture avoidance practices to follow that will keep any rifle running in cold weather. A decades old cold-weather test from a single LEA is a single data point.

The Swedes or the Swiss?

It's pretty obvious that for any rifle going to UtJR use, there has been extensive cold weather tests.

Besides, even a good AR works just fine in arctic conditions if you don't constantly take it in and out of very cold air and keep it properly lubed with Forrest S-761 oil that is rated good down to  -72 F.

It's a complete non-issue. FDF hasn't made the error of procuring a weapon system unsuitable for Finnish weather since 1928, and then the designer was actually drunk (a tenacious rumor is that he had an official written permission from marshal Mannerheim to drink on the job)!

Wait.

Sako rifle production is being moved to fucking Italy?  Italy?  What the shit.

1 MOA at 100 yards... you don't say?  

The long stock of RK 62 is excellent for firing from the supported prone position. But it's even better as a field stool, poker for field stoves, pickaxe for frozen ground, sledgehammer for repairing Russian electrical equipment and for restarting (waking up) the on-duty officer.

Something I think is funny: how many Americans think Valmet is somehow a French word

Are your politicians Greek immigrants?

TRG line only at this time. Beretta wants to make money exporting it out of the EU. They have done so by first moving them from Finland to Italy under various pretenses and then exporting them from there. But the Finnish Foreign Ministry that controls arms exports in Finland and is lead by a socialist (and member of the Communist Finnish Committee of One Hundred) has intervened even in that. I don't think Beretta wants to move the civilian rifle production from Finland (yet).

OTOH, I would rather have more Tikka T3 Tacticals as standard sniper rifles than TRG-22s. In the Anti-Material role FDF is going with the Barret anyway. I've shot both in an antipersonnel application and while the TRG is a nice system, it's just too nice for field work except SF and police CT etc. use.

Yeah, that's not typical for an RK 62/95 with the JVA 0316 service round. It's usually over 2. With hand loads I've seen a 30 mm group with 5 shots from a pretty well kept M92S. It should be noted though that the usual FDF short range shooting is at 150 m, not 100 yards, where groups tend to be on the order of 10 cm or 2.7 MOA.

They are sorely beat in the service rifle competitions by UR-15s (that can shoot 30 rounds, that is thirty, in 0.7 MOA at 100 meters with factory ammo and come with a sub 0.5 MOA guarantee for 5 shots).

Comparing groups is always a numbers game though. Here is a 0.7 MOA 3 round group at 150 meters from an RK 62 with issue ammo. I would call this an extremely lucky 3 shots:



It should be noted that there is no magic involved in the legendary Finnish AK accuracy, it's just hand finished barrels and custom chamber (7.62x39 Sako) and rifling specs. It doesn't work that well with Russian ammo, since it's not designed for it except in emergency use.

IMO, this.

The Canadians, and their C8s didn't get that memo. And last I heard, they called it "The Great White North" up there.

They should go with SCAR-H's...

AKs seem to work pretty well in extreme cold... Are they powered by spirit of communism or something? I thought they were gas operated.

The person who did those trials has stated he regrets them. AST issues M4s.

Is there a difference?