I am a Canadian. I love my country and am proud of the record of her fighting men in every conflict we were ever involved in. My father is a veteran of the Korean war. Airborne.
I have been in the US for five years now. I am a legal permanent resident (green card).
I used to think Americans were jingoistic flag wavers. A bit over the top, so to speak, when it came to God the flag and country.
I think differently now.
Being a curious, thinking man and somewhat intelligent I decided to learn more about my adopted country and its history with the intention of becoming a citizen. Where would you start?
Easy, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
After reading these documents and some of the writings of the founding fathers I found something I never expected. Nor could anyone with half a brain who read them not find. Inside those documents and the minds of the founding fathers was something so profound and obvious and true a switch turned on in my brain.
These rights we have, all of us, everyone everywhere, ARE GOD GIVEN. ALL OF THEM. Being from Canada, or any other country for that matter, and not being raised knowing the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, these things are not clear to some/most of us(some people in this country don't get it either).
I think I now understand the meaning of being a patriot.
Someone who understands the meaning and ideals of the country as it was founded and is willing to stand and fight for those ideals no matter the consequences or how unpopular.
My questions are these:
I am Canadian. I want to become an American citizen and will the minute it becomes possible. Does that make me a traitor to my own country?
I want to wave the flag of the USA and do the things Americans do as patriots. Is that appropriate since I am not yet an American?
America has something no one else has. The bill of rights. I believe it may be the most important document ever written.
The Magna Carta, The Declaration of Rights, the writings of John Locke and William Blackstone are the roots of these documents and are significant in their own right.
The Bill of Rights is in danger of being rewritten, at worst, eroded at best although recent court decisions are encouraging relative to the SA. Lets be serious, any decisions not in favor will be political, not based on the writings and intentions of the founding fathers.
I digress. Where do I stand as a Canadian in the process of becoming an American? How should I behave as a an "American in training"?
How should i feel as a Canadian in abdication?
Where do I stand as a Canadian giving up his country?
I am proud to be a Canadian, I will be proud to be an American. I feel though, that America has stirred up in me something Canada never could have.
I am afraid to embrace it to tightly yet.  I dont want to be seen as a traitor to my own country nor as a pretender to my new one.

There are many people on this board who's opinions I respect. Some who I desire to hear because they are thinkers and never accept the status quo. Some are merely controversial.
Some are Canadian. Some I have a personal knowledge of.
Opinions from all are wanted.
Specifically:
Striker
Stormbringer
other Canucks
Hiram Ranger
Imbrolio
Eric the Hun(of course)
USMA89
edpmedic
Goatboy
EdAvila SR.
Waverunner
Tatianna
Garandma
Steyraug
lordtrader
armdlibrl
82abn
Anyones comments are wanted, I just wanted single a few who I am familiar WITH the views.
THANKS,
GREATLY APPRECIATED.
BP
Edit;
military and LEO plase respond

Although I'm not on your list....

captainpooby, Great North AMERICAN patriot. Thank you for learning more about our history than most of the Americans in school now learn.

[b]My questions are these:
I am Canadian. I want to become an American citizen and will the minute it becomes possible. Does that make me a traitor to my own country?[/b]

No, you'd be a traitor if you did something to hurt Canada. It's just a choice. I know people who became citizens of Israel and Canada. Doesn't make them traitors in my eyes.

[b]I want to wave the flag of the USA and do the things Americans do as patriots. Is that appropriate since I am not yet an American?[/b]

No. Go for it. You can appreciate another nation by waving its flag without being a citizen, or denigrating your own.

[b]America has something no one else has. The bill of rights. I believe it may be the most important document ever written.
The Magna Carta, The Declaration of Rights, the writings of John Locke and William Blackstone are the roots of these documents and are significant in their own right.[/b]

As a Canadian, you're part of the Anglo tradition of democracy.  At the turn of the century, there were only something like 12 democracies in the world.  With a few exceptions, most of them were Commonwealth or former Commonwealth countries.

[b]Where do I stand as a Canadian in the process of becoming an American? How should I behave as a an "American in training"?
How should i feel as a Canadian in abdication?
Where do I stand as a Canadian giving up his country?[/b]

Don't break any laws, consider individual freedoms first over what the government can do for you.  Follow politics and get involved once you can vote. How should you feel as a Canadian abdicating citizenship? Well, a lot of Canadians split for selfish reasons, like MD's who make more and pay less taxes by practicing in the US.  That was my friend's GF's plan. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but your reasons for emigrating are a lot more idealistic and noble.

[b]I am proud to be a Canadian, I will be proud to be an American. I feel though, that America has stirred up in me something Canada never could have.
I am afraid to embrace it to tightly yet. I dont want to be seen as a traitor to my own country nor as a pretender to my new one.[/b]

I will be very very happy to see a guy like you be a fellow American. You'll be in company with such great Canadian guys who decided to become US citizens like William F. Buckley, David Frum, and Jim Carry.

traitor, no, i don't think you can fix your country so why stay there.

Hell yes, you waving the American flag is appropriate.

"American in training"?  
relax.  visualize world liberty.  you leave me alone and i will leave you alone and if anyone messes with either of us we team up and kill them.  

Canada is like a gangrenous arm you will be better after you cut if off.  

Where do I stand: pick a side.  call yourself an American.  we have too many African-Americans, Mexican-Americans etc. and too few Real-Americans.

The US is famous for being a nation founded on an idea, not a race or nationality. Anyone who subscribes to the idea can be an American.

Here's a proposal: since America is based on an idea, why limit citizenship to just those born within its borders? Why not let people outside the US--say, in Europe or South America--become citizens once they pass appropriate tests on English, the Federalist Papers, the Consitution, and the rest of the founding American ideas.

Of course this has some problems--imagine trying to sort out the presidential voting in Albania--so we can make this a limited, non-voting form of citizenship. People who are "overseas Americans" get first crack at travel visas, immigration, and maybe heightened interest from the US embassy on human rights issues.

There'd be a run on copies of the Federalist Papers and English lessons. Which would be a good thing.

ALL OF YOUR OPINIONS ARE WANTED!!!!!!!!!!!
I only mentioned a few names due to theirr noteriety and or personal connection.

captainpooby,

There's a lot you can say about this topic. I'll try to keep it under 5 pages-

As far as feeling like a traitor to your country, you aren't. You are supporting God-given ideals handed down to us a millenia ago.  You are, and always will be, "Canadian". Despite what country you are a citizen of.  You are not a traitor, but instead are pursuing ideals that your country might have lost sight of, or never thought to enunciate in the first place.


As far as flag waving and all the other dorky stuff we Americans do, go for it. You are already ten times the American that 50% of the country is.  Am a political science/Int. Relations guy and as I watch the degredation of our country's value system my heart is sick.

Like the girl who turns her back on the flag at her basketball games, she's given up on our ideals.  Like the picture we had here a few months ago where a flag was passing in a parade, and the ONLY person standing was standing out of a wheel chair.  These people have given up on the ideals that our founders fought and died for.  They might live here but they aren't "Americans".  


You sir, are an American, in heart if not officially yet.


Good luck in your journey,  welcome to America.


Matt

You certainly not a traitor.

My great grandfather came here from Italy, and became an American, does that make him a traitor to his counrty?
Certainly not.  There is no difference between you and any immigrant that has come to this country since our founding.

You have obviously read and understood our forefathers, something that is so distant for so many who born "Americans".  For that I congratulate and salute you.  Pick up that flag and wave it every time you can.

And if the stuff should hit the fan, pick up the flag, pick up a rifle, and stand with me.

I will gladly stand beside you, armed as is our right. I wil carry the flag proudly as well.
BP
edit:
Thank you for your kind and honest replies.

Like you, I am here on a green card.  

I never really considered seriously becoming an American citizen, since I would see it as turning my back on my home country.

I'm NOT saying at all that's what you would be doing - please don't take it that way.  This is purely about how I see my own personal situation.  My attitude is in part shaped by the fact the I served in the Danish royal family's personal regiment (where my father served as well, and is kind of our family regiment), and I feel a very strong loyalty to the royal family and the country.

That said, after September 11, I have started to think very seriously about becoming a citizen.  Despite how I might whine about U.S. foreign policy and piblic policy, I have develop as strong attachment over the last 13 years - and I felt like I was attacked on Sept. 11 along with everyone else.

I did contact the Pentagon the week after 9/11 and volunteered my services in case they had any use for an old infantry lieutenant with a bad knee.  Unlikely, granted, but I wanted to do something for the country that has been my home for the last decade.  I had to settle for giving blood.  [:(]


I can't answer whether or not you are betraying Canada, because I think it's very much a personal matter.  But in my mind I could not become a U.S. citizen without feeling like I was turning my back on my home country - renouncing a citizenship does sort of say "you suck" to the old country.  I don't think I can do it - but if I ever had kids, I'd want them to be American.

Post from captainpooby -

Nope, you are still a 'Canadian' in the respect of where you were born and grew up.

You will simply no longer have a [u]political[/u] connection to that country. Only a sentimental one, for friends, family, and childhood memories.

It would be as if you were born in Florida and wound up living in Oregon. You would happily consider the new home you made in Oregon made you an Oregonian, but there would still be sweet, maybe even bittersweet, memories that
kept you, or a part of you, a Floridian.

Up in Oregon, watching the Weather Channel, the weather in Florida would still be of some interest to you. If there was a hurricane heading for your former home in Florida, you would pay more attention to it than the average Oregonian!

That's only natural, and it should not make you feel less of an Oregonian, simply because you took an interest in your former home state.

[b]Absolutely![/b] As a matter of fact, some of the most memorable photos taken of the US flag, have been taken of that flag being waved by the citizens of another country.

For someone who has made it to our shores, and declared his intention to become a US citizen, it should be expected that you would want to catch up on a lifetime of waving Old Glory!

You have a depth of knowledge in matters that every US citizen [u]should[/u] have, but, alas, does not.

Their's is the loss, and what an inheritance they have renounced! A patrimony of priceless liberties, hardfought for, and won, re-won, and maintained, only at the point of a citizen-soldier's bayonet!

As far as I can tell, you are doing great already! On this Board, in these Forums, the membership will give you as much guidance as you wish.

Just ask us what you will - and don't be surprised if there is more than one 'correct' answer to any of your questions - that's just how [u]we[/u] Americans are, right?

You are not declaring war against your homeland, you are simply choosing to take on the citizenship of another country, one which is very similar in most respects to what you grew up with, just a little more righteously independent!

It has stirred up such feelings in a whole lot of folks! In folks from cultures a lot more radically different from the US than Canada.

Luckily for you, Canada and the United States are not currently engaged in a war against each other, and haven't been for at least 188 years!

So, I doubt the Mounties are going to be looking for you anytime soon!

Eric The(American)Hun[>]:)]

I'm not on your list either. [:(] But I will try and help.

First off, being an American is no more about where you were born, but more realistically is about how you think and act.

I am an American by birth, but I am an [i]American[/i]  by my actions and choices.

Being American is about being yourself, understanding yourself, and bettering yourself. True Americans do not quit, do not complain, and live the ideals of honor and integrity.

Being American is about having the intestinal fortitude to stand up for yourself, against all odds, and stick to your guns.

Being American is about tossing Tea into the harbor; about paying your slaves in Virginia in 1845; about flying a single prop for the Limies during the Blitz; about climbing the sea walls of Inchon; about sitting an a dirty embassy for over a year in Tehran; about storming an airfield over open ground to rescue hostage countrymen; about eating sand and wearing salty uniforms while freing Kuwait; about voulenteering down at the local food bank; it's about bottom of the ninth, two outs, full count, bases loaded, and down by four.

Being an American is about very few and simple ideals.

1- Standing up for yourself and for those who cannot do so themselves
2- Fighting against all hope and all odds, even in the face of defeat; NEVER giving up
3- being yourself, and allowing others to do the same, even if it is against your beliefs


This in my eyes are what separates Americans from the rest of the world.

-UHLEK-


Edited because I screwed up. Another good quality of an American

Stand up and be counted as a proud AMERICAN. The sheer fact that you read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights puts you ahead of alot of natural born Americans. Welcome!!!!
Dave C

You are more of an American than most Americans I know.

America is more of an idea then a reality these days.  Thank you for giving a shit.

I serve with soldiers from Haiti to Guam to Jamaica and Canada, to list a few.  I never look at them in any light other than American soldiers doing what they love, defending our great nation and our way of life.  We welcome you with open arms and are proud to call you our brother.  Don't think that you have to give up your love for Canada, the foundation of this nation was built from those from afar.  Be proud to be an American, be proud of Canada, if you want to kick it up a notch move to TEXAS!  Welcome friend and good luck with becoming a citizen, you are already an American.

mustang39d

There are those here who would say you need not be guaranteed those rights while living in the US, since you aren't a citizen.

Funny....Some of the same people encouraging you to give up your Canadian citizenship, would call an American who gave up citizenship for another flag a traitor......

Hypocrisy is alive and well..... I wonder why they don't tell you the same thing they tell mexicans?
Go back to YOUR OWN country and change it!!
Far as I'm concerned ALL immigrants should go home, not just "Brown-skinned", or those who speak a language I don't understand. We have too many foreigners in our nation as it is right now........

Holy sweeping and unfounded generalizations, Batman!  Anyone who doesn't want to be a US citizen and renounces their citizenship is not a traitor.  If they have serious issues with the US they can't abide by, like that tool Ken O'Keefe, it's better that they leave.  For both parties. Some people leave the US for religious or political reasons, some as a matter of preference.  If they're happier elsewhere, fine. No big deal.

Even as the stridently anti-American O'Keefe rails against the US and organizes people to put their lives on the line for Saddam Hussein, I wouldn't call him a traitor.  Because how is he harming the US?  He's harming the health and well being of a lot of naive individuals, but it's not like he's any serious threat.

[img]http://www.bluecorncomics.com/pics/sitbull.gif[/img]
Sitting Bull say Buh Bye.

I'd more than happy to see floods of immigrants come into the country, as long as all of them are waving the bill of rights around like it's the best thing since sliced bread. now the ones who want to turn the USA into a richer version of their home cesspool ...

captainpooby,

welcome

Hate speech?? I beg your pardon??? What is this? D/U?? My point is this; We have too many foreigners, (both legal and illegal), in the country now as it is. Several million a year for over 10 years. We need to assimilate those who are here now, and take fewer into the country. There's nothing "hateful", or "fearful", about it! Look at the threads about those coming from south of the border, you sure see a different tune being played there!!

Please point to the specific violation. How are my comments racist? I specifically said [b]"ALL immigrants" [/b], it's safe to say that is a race neutral statement.... What I am saying, is that between legal and illegal immigration, we have to take a "holiday", on ALL immigration to assimilate those who are here.

Nobody here is trying to "weasel" out of anything. I simply am trying to demonstrate how some "immigrants" are welcomed, while others are not.... There's nothing "racist" about my remarks other than the different treatment some here give to different immigrants.

Your comments were not "race specific" - they were clearly "racist" to anyone who is not a US citizen.

Now I suggest we stop here and let others reply to the topic, so the author of the thread gets the responses he asked for.

By becoming an American citizen I will not have to renounce my Canadian citizenship. I will become a "dual citizen" by default. Able to hold a passport of either country as I understand the law.
I grew up in northern Ontario in the small town of North Bay. Located in North Bay is an underground complex much the same as Cheyenne Mtn. in Colorado. There was a large American military presence there.While never taught to "duck and cover" we did have air raid sirens and they did go off regularly in tests.
Many of my friends were Americans, "base brats" as we called them. By the way, even the kids of the Canadian soldiers were called "base brats" even by themselves.I lost my virginity to an American girl when I was fifteen. I could never tell the difference between an American and Canadian when I was young.
As I grew up and became more political, I began to see the difference.
I was probably a liberal back then, I even voted NDP(socialist) in one election because I voted issues more than anything else. I hated the conservative government of Brian Mulroney and thought PET was a great Prime minister. Mostly because he had the balls to tell parliament to "fuck off"(the fuddle duddle incident) and to give the finger to reporters once.
I realize now, after five years here why that is. Canada has no real history or culture of action. It has always been someone else's place.
Subjects to the British and home to anyone who showed up. I think we invented the term multiculturalism. I remember in history class being compared to America: we were the "fruitcake" and the US was the "melting pot".
We accepted everyone as they were, while America expected you to melt in and become Americanized.
Canada has never owned a clear history or direction unless as a reflection of someone else. Trying to help everyone else and losing themselves in the fray. While these are noble ideals, the country has lost an opportunity to become its own.
America, on the other hand has had a clear blueprint from the beginning. The constitution and the Bill of Rights. You fought and died for these ideals while in Canada our politics were given to us. Our fight over our constitution was mainly over how to please Quebec just so they'ed sign. They had be recognized as a "distinct society". It was written by politicians, so guess what. Its not really about rights but privledges we the unwashed can have.
I came here because I married an American. Not purposely to immigrate. I chose to hop in the pot and get "melted". That was what prompted my original post.
While getting melted and learning about my new home I realized I liked it here better. The expression "Its a free country" actually meant something. The freedoms are guaranteed. Not just doled out at the whim of the elected few.
This concept appeals to me and I choose to accept the responsibilities that go along with it.
I just began to feel a little guilt about leaving my home. After all the times I sang "We'll stand on guard for thee!" I guess it did mean something. Not just: let the hockey game begin. The words to the Canadian anthem have changed so much over the years I dont know the anymore. That says something for how much they meant in the first place.
I know all the words to "The Star Spangled Banner" and at the Maple Leaf/Lightning game a couple weeks ago I swear a tear came to my eye while it played.
I suppose I am already there in spirit.
I wish the Canadian government had more balls and would stand up for its neighbor. After all, the US is really our big brother. Ready to protect us from any bullies who may come along.
Given the choice I have been given, I choose to be American. I will never forget my home and it wasnt a love it or leave it thing. I think its just better to have a clear set of principles to believe in and to stand up for yourself than have a nanny government.
Liberty86 and Khar9, you are welcome at my home for dinner if you are ever in the neighborhood.[;)]
edit to say:
I cheered for the Leafs.  I couldn't help it. They won.
 

Capt

I dont see the giving up on your own country. Traitor is a bit harsh of a word, more like dumping your wife of 20 years for a pretty and younger model after she has your kids. It is done everyday.

Dual citizenship sound better to me. You can love two women why not two countrys ?


Liberty86 I understand your point and I think it has been misunderstood.

To anyone who even thinks about calling me a racist or a xenophobic ( nice word RAF )you would be dead wrong. I am not a neither and anyone who knows me will tell you so.

This is america and that is why Captainpoopy is happy to be here. We should be one country united. It seems like many of the people coming into this counrty do not want to be americans, they just want to be able to enjoy the freedoms of being a american.

[b]Captpoopy I am happy to have you and anyone like yourself. [/b]

No, it doesn't.Since the flag of the United States has been a symbol of freedom for millions of people the world over for decades, Yes, it is appropriate. You are neither.

raf and EricE - Please check your Email.

I would like to thank everyone who has responded.
EVERYONE! I wanted all thoughts, good and negative.
Imagine yourself in my place. Marrying someone from a foreign country and moving there to be together. Not for any other reason.
After a while, you become accustomed to and preferable to that country's values.
Being a person who likes to participate in the political process. You find yourself unable to vote and unable to participate. Your only choice to contribute to that country, besides working hard and paying taxes, is to become a citizen so you can speak with your vote.
I have nothing against Canada. It is my Country of birth. The socialist governments are are carrying the handbasket and now I am unable to speak with my vote there either.
I have chosen to embrace my new home and want to be part of the process that you all consider your duty, not just your right.
Much of what I have learned about this country's history and constitution I have learned on this board and it has shaped my political views somewhat.
I am not a dope. I dont believe everything I read, certainly not here. I have sought knowledge elsewhere. I still come to the same conclusion. I would rather be here than in Canada.
I have some guilt over these feelings and am not sure just how to reconcile them.
So here I am. Asking in a place where I feel patriotism is not just a word or a concept to most. Somehow, I feel many of the folks here have a deeper feeling of patriotism and what it means than I do.
I thank you all for sharing those feelings.
As for those that think I should go home:
"Its a free country" I'm staying.
I think a little guilt for leaving Canada is good thing. It shows I cared.
I just learned that today.

Dude. You ARE an American. Now get the paperwork taken care of. Welcome!

I wont be able to raise my right hand for another couple years. If my marriage had of lasted more than four years I could become a citizen next fall. As of now it must be five years from the date on my green card. That will tack on another couple years.
I wont be able to vote 2004, but I do support the NRA, GOA, SAF, and contribute financially to the candidates that support my views.

You have no idea what it feels like to subjugate third world shit holes, that is, until you become an american.  

Here's to your first purchase of chinese goods, mexican produce, and korean made cars, with American money.  (and being an American, to boot, Ay!)

captainpooby, you are very gracious to invite me to dinner, especially after my original comments in your thread. It is obvious to me you are somewhat excited at the prospect of becoming an American citizen. I should have withheld my uninvited comments about immigration, but instead I rained on your parade, and for that I hope you will accept my apology. While I DO NOT retract my comments, I certainly did not show class by posting them in this particular thread. I want you and others to know, that I am under NO pressure whatsoever by staff or mods to make this post, It's all on my own.
After reading your first and subsequent posts, I am confident you will make a better American than some on this board.
Again please forgive me for raining on your parade, and I would be honored to break bread with you in the future.

u-baddog, thanks, I was beginning to wonder if I was writing in Martian, and didn't know it!!  [:D]

captainpooby, You are a shining example of the kind of people this country desperately needs. It would be an honor to have more men like you cross the border so to speak to become a US citizen. My wife also has dual citizenship, only it's between the US and dare I say, the UK. However she is a true patriot in her heart just like most of us here. So please wave the flag, heck, you have earned that right based on your character alone and that says more to me than a peice of paper. You are a brother in my eyes, so be proud to display your love of America.

If you understand that, and you believe what it means, than you are an American.  All Americans have come from another place, whether it is this generation, or their parent's generation, or 200 years ago.  What makes us American is what we believe.  You, my friend, are an American.  And that tear in your eye during the Anthem sealed it.  Even if you don't take citizenship, you've become one of us.

And Liberty86:  I can understand where you are coming from, but there is a distinction between coming here because you are an American in your heart and coming here to take advantage of a socialist leaning society.  Those are the people we have to avoid.  It is the people that come here to stand up for what we all believe in that we have to welcome with open arms.  These are the men that have always come to America and made it the great country that it has been.  Too many of our natural born citizens are only American in name.  It is the Americans of spirit that we should embrace.

Hey, if I could do that, I'd be applying for U.S. citizenship in a New York minute.  Denmark doesn't allow dual citizenship, so what's holding me back is that I would feel like I was "abondoning" my home country.

If I had your option, I would not hesitate, because that was I could feel like I was contributing to the U.S., my new home, without completely turning my back on my old home.

I'd rather have an immigrant who loves this country that a native that could care less...

All my ancestors imigrated to America.  They all learned the language, became productive citizens and some served during the World Wars.

So.........when are you leaving? The reason I ask is because unless you're a 100% native American (ie: American Indian), somewhere on down the line, somebody from your family was an immigrant. I guess they should have just booted all of our ancestors (in my case, my Father) back to wherever they came from, right?

Take it easy on Liberty. I would have a problem with anyone coming to my country (legally or illegally) who is here just for the advantages.
Unwilling to take on the values and responsibilities of my new home.It is a huge problem in Canada also.
First generation immigrants who have been here fo ten years and cant speak english is a bit discouraging, to say the least.

he didn't say all ancestors of immigrants should go home, he said all immigrants should go home.