I wonder how Jerry Miculek or Bob Munden (RIP) would do in a real life shoot out with lead flying form a 2 or 3 bad guys?

I mean no one ever knows how they will react until the real deal happens.



I have an older friend who survived 3 tours in combat in Vietnam.

Too many fire fights to count, most times he said they never even saw who was shooting at them.

I asked him how he handled facing death all that time.



He said he convinced himself he was going to die there, even visualized it.

He said after he faced it like that he wasn't afraid to die anymore.

my guess is if it was a close range fight,  it'd be over very very fast, and everyone would be dead.  While I'm sure the getting shot at and competition pressure's are different, they aren't so different that there would be no edge.  

I suspect Mikulek in particular would be dominant in a gun fight due to being used to shooting very fast, very accurately, under heavy pressure. Mundun was more of a trick shooter, and while I'm sure there is some pressure there, I suspect it's not the same as having competition, and in connection your livelihood, sponsorships etc on the line.  

but that's just my guess. I could be completely wrong.

When you freak out muscle memory takes over.  I think it is safe to say Jerry has the proper amount of muscle memory.

 

I imagine even if Jerry's skills declined 50% under stress he'd still be a better shot that most anyone he'd be up against.

I'd have to agree.

Methinks Jerry would 'win' 99.99% of the time.  

Some people do, others freeze and until they are in a life & death situation no test or drill will determine whether you freeze or react.

Training at Jerry's level and level of performance he achieves would certainly give him the edge as long as he kept his head.

I have the feeling Jerry world react and it would be over before anyone could blink.



 

Losing 50% of your ability is one thing, completely freezing up is all together different.

Some of the toughest guys in the world have froze.





 

I think it comes down to training...

There are just some things that you can't "train."

But...

This kind of reminds me of an out-of-shape mentally, spiritually, and physically officer I talked to...

He said, "My bullet can travel faster than the criminal can run. That is all that matters."

There are so, so many variables in any potential use-of-force situation that makes that attitude completely ridiculous.

My response was, "There is a use-of-force spectrum, and if the only level of force you can operate at is either sitting on your butt or lethal force,  and nothing in between, you are going to get yourself into trouble..."

We argued/talked for a minute... But the only other thing I remember him saying to defend his laziness other than the "bullet traveling faster..." statement was I said, "What if a really tough thug tries to disarm you."

He said, "I never let them get that close."

Training is very important.

Developing muscle-memory is very important.

Being mentally prepared, considering and thinking about scenarios and how you would react is very, very important.

Actually being there when something *actually* happens.

I remember the first time in my life I saw something happen. I saw a guy stab another guy right in front of me. When I was younger. I saw it. Thought, "did I just see that?" Then thought, "Yeah, I just saw that." It was all-over in a fraction of a second. I yelled, like an idiot. "Hey, drop the knife." And ran towards the "fight." He dropped the knife, and ran away. Probably saved the victims life... Still wonder to this day what would have happened if he had decided to stab me, too. But...The stabbing itself was a more-than-likely a crime of opportunity between two thugs, and the stabber probably knew he was only going to get one strike in, maybe two... So me being in the wrong place at the wrong time was probably enough to stop it when it did.

So... Is there any way to practice *every* event or scenario. No.

It is impossible.

Some great fighters have been totally-prepared... And then taken-down by a sniper that they cannot see... Or stepped on a landmine, or were following-orders and moving under-orders into fire...

But...

There is absolutely zero excuse for not training. There is no excuse for not building proper muscle-memory...

These guys have good training, and good muscle memory... But the real-deal is the real-deal. Look at any team from the Pro's to a Middle-School girls basketball team... Their ability to sink shots diminishes with better competition. The competition adds elements they just cannot prepare for. At the gym I run in when it gets cold, (a lot the last few weeks) they have a jogging track around the upper-deck of the outside of the gym. So the kid leagues are practicing when I am running... And sometimes I get to see the same team play on the weekend that I saw practicing earlier... In practice, the coach is setting up the play. They look brilliant. Everyone is going where they are supposed to go. They are setting up picks against imaginary opponents... Looking good. Same team on the weekend... It has all gone to heck. The coach is yelling, they are trying to do what the coach is telling them... And the opposing team is doing everything *they* can do to also win...

But...

I can see the kids *trying* to set up the plays the coach set-up... And I can see that when it comes together, their chances of beating the defense are *better.*

Look...

Nobody out there is going to beat every single person in every single scenario... It is impossible. Training *increases* your chances you will do *better* in any given scenario...

And... Running is very important. Cardio and heart health have "fighting" benefits outside just being healthy... A lower heart rate under pressure can mean the difference.

Weight lifting and strength conditioning are important too. They contribute to confidence and physical ability in *any* potential scenario... And that can mean the difference.

Reload drills and tap-rack drills are important. Confidence with the weapon system... Can mean the difference.

Moving and shooting drills are important. Nobody is just going to stand there, waiting to get shot, and neither should you.. Moving while you are shooting is important... And can mean the difference.

But all in all... Building the skills, if you *really* care... Should be a daily, constant thing...

And I have every confidence that skills will diminish under pressure (as they do for NBA players all the way down to Jr. High teams)... The trick is to keep your skills and abilities where "diminished" or under-pressre skills will still win a fight...

Following the rule of "he who shoots first (usually) wins", it depends.  But if an opponent to JM does shoot first, he'd better be damn accurate, because he won't likely get a second shot off.

When I worked at a Bar doorman/bouncer/whatever, a guy was told to leave by the bartender, he turned toward me at the door with a smile, he swung his arm at me (he had an open knife in his hand) Without thinking i just reacted, grabbed his wrist and once I saw the knife in his hand I realized how lucky I was to have reactions like that, he was trying to cut my throat while fucking smiling at me.



 

Jerry is super fast & highly accurate, I've seen a lot of guys who are great at one but not as great at the other, Jerry is great at both which is why he stands far above most men shooting.



 

my guess is if it was a close range fight, it'd be over very very fast, and everyone would be dead.

nuff said.

I disagree with this somewhat.  I think there is enough pressure in career make-or-break competition to determine if he's a shoot or freeze kind of person.   While the pressure is "different", the levels are probably similar enough. If Jerry was going to freeze, he'd have done it in competition several times, and from all accounts, the only thing Jerry M does is shoot stupidly fast.

If it's a fair fight you are doing it wrong. Even a squad of Delta caught in an ambush from high ground is going to take heavy casualties. Any gunfight scenario based on a mutual draw and fire is wrong from the get go. Which is why getting to cover, fire and movement, and threat assessment are ultimately more important gunfighting skills than shooting.

Me too

There is no way a business or job on the line deal comes close to a real life or death situation.


I've been in both and although I speak for myself only the adrenalin , the rush, the tunnel vision is from life or death situation.


I've pulled a gun to defend my life and family and thank God i didn't freeze.


I have been is a lot of fights when I was younger , not one made me shake before , during or after is was all over, the gun one did.
 

Muscle memory is king.

An overreaction to fear can stop that neurotransmission dead in it's tracks





 

Anyone who knows anything about the skills of these two men should believe they would be very dangerous in a real gunfight (Yes, I know Bob Munden is no longer with us.)

HOWEVER,

1 .I don't think either of them would be using their show rigs for CCW, or anything else but exhibition or competition, so their presentation would be slowed a great deal.

2. Fear, anxiety, stress, distortion of visual acuity, hearing, time association, etc. would affect them, just like everybody else.

3. They may be shocked to find that their adversaries don't go down, like in movies.  They are likely to miss their intended targets with some of their rounds, if not all, just like anyone else.

4. Customized equipment and benchrest accuracy aren't necessary, or even desirable in a gunfight. Reliability and multiple hits in rapid succession are what matter.

5. The adversaries will most likely be moving, briefly expose only a small portion of their body and be shooting back.

6. They may get shot as well, which will make everything worse.

Yep

 

A lot of focus on Jerry or Bob but not much talk about opposition.....if your opponent is ready and willing to die right then and there things can go sideways in a hurry

Against a human?  My money goes on the alien superbeing named Jerry.

No shit he does.

Lol
Who's the other guy? Is JM being assaulted by someone with similar skills.

A common street crook ?

Bob would literally shoot the buttons on the target, in order whilst talking aloud about what he's doing from a third person perspective, maybe with a childhood story thrown in, Jerry would put a cylinder worth into the target in the alpha zone, reload and get another four rounds into them before hitting the ground, then start wondering if he can find another target to try and empty two moon clips before the next guy hits the dirt.

Then he'd put it on youtube.

I think it all hinges on how quickly the gun comes into play.  Which is to say how quickly the super shooter assess the threat and how ready the threat is to cause harm.

If the bad guys are already drawn down and have already decided that murder is not a problem then it's not going to go good no matter what.  If the good guy isn't incapacitated real fast there's going to be at least one dead bad guy.

If the bad guy hesitates or doesn't already have a gun ready and in play, and the good guy recognizes the threat they both have the skills to get their guns out and on target ridiculously fast.  Things from there depend on how many bad guys there are.

Pacific Theater of Operations 1941-1945

more recently

Miami, 1986

North Hollywood, 1997

Showing off with range toys will entertain. Reality will kill.    
Jerry Miculek's show targets aren't trained, determined or armed, and they're not shooting back.

The stress, alone, of realizing one's very life is in jeopardy is enough to "wash out" any previous preparation our mindset, once it occurs.
This "realization" can occur literally in the "blink of an eye".  Training can not overcome physiological effects of stress.

I once observed a trained, experienced police officer lose consciousness and "pass out" minutes after causing a minor traffic crash in which no one was hurt.  
The stress of getting a citation, disciplined at work and possibly sued was too much. No one was trying to kill him.  

Thats why a devastating rd of large bore pistol should be applied liberally.



 

Here's a couple

One of my best friends was a LRRP troop in the 101st Airborne.

He told me while we were drinking one time that he reasoned that if it was his time to die, there was nothing he do to prevent it.

If it was not his time to die, then nothing the VC did would kill him.  So he said "Fuck it. I just did my job every day the same way."

He did end up with a purple heart as he got hit by shrapnel one time up in the A Shau.

He also had two bronze stars although he got drunk one time and threw them away.

HIs wife went and dug them out of the trash and locked them up and told him if he ever tried to throw his bronze stars away again SHE would kill his ass.

HIs wife came from a career CIA family.

That and I pretty sure Mr. M carries. I do belive he has the right mind set and has thought in depth about how to handle it.

Well, 99% of people here think they will John Wayne every gun fight. JM is better than 99% of those here. Do the the math on that one.

Discussing hypothetical scenarios about Jerry Miculek in a gun fight isn't worth much; OP humble bragging about his adventures in bouncing was the sole purpose of this thread, and it was underhanded to use Jerry Miculek to trick me into reading it.

I do know this; Jerry Miculek is very good at what he does, and is arguably the fastest shooter in the world - but all I need is a 2 second head start to beat him in a gunfight. This ain't badminton; a half crazy thief deaded the deadliest sniper in the history of this country, and he probably never saw it coming. Getting in a gunfight is something you need to avoid first and foremost, and I'd say Jerry Miculek is even better at that compared to OP (less likely to have to do a V drill on a gang of deviants, more likely to come out on top if it comes to that). You just keep bouncing OP, I think Road House is on AMC later this week.

Real bullets flying? He would do shit against 75% of our vets.

Go against the well experienced US Army or even the dregs in the USMC () and he would piss his pants.