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Posted: 1/17/2015 7:01:55 AM EDT
[#1]
Are you about to paint your masterpiece?
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Posted: 1/17/2015 7:03:42 AM EDT
[#2]
The problem is two-fold.
First of all, the law is archaic Secondly, people went full tard with how/ what the Brace was used on. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 7:08:54 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The problem is two-fold. First of all, the law is archaic Secondly, people went full tard with how/ what the Brace was used on. The law is very clear that classification is based on design intent. If, as the ATF are suggesting, that alternative usage constitutes redesign then I may now fit autosears to my ARs and they aren't MGs providing that I only shoot them in semi-auto (as far as anyone knows....). |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 7:10:42 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: According to this: The pistol stabilizing brace was neither "designed” nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a "redesign” of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked. So if I hang my gun's in a Picture frame, put them on the wall, they are now Art. Far as I know, you can sell "art" without a Licence. The ATF Has opened a can of worms. Derp derp derp. That applies ONLY to the stabilizing brace.  |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 7:14:28 AM EDT
[#5]
Another one?
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Posted: 1/17/2015 7:18:30 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another one? I think we could hit 10 new threads about this today. 
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Posted: 1/17/2015 7:23:32 AM EDT
[#7]
It's this (the OP) mindset that muddies laws even further.
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Posted: 1/17/2015 7:23:56 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Derp derp derp. That applies ONLY to the stabilizing brace.
sat·ire 'sa?ti(?)r/ noun the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues. synonyms:mockery, ridicule, derision, scorn, caricature; Derp Derp your fucking self |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 7:27:01 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
According to this: The pistol stabilizing brace was neither “designed” nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a “redesign” of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked.
So if I hang my gun's in a Picture frame, put them on the wall, they are now Art. Far as I know, you can sell "art" without a Licence. The ATF Has opened a can of worms. I'm not following your logic. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 7:28:38 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you about to paint your masterpiece? Man on Fire. Just watched it the other night. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 7:30:34 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not following your logic. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
According to this: The pistol stabilizing brace was neither “designed” nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a “redesign” of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked.
So if I hang my gun's in a Picture frame, put them on the wall, they are now Art. Far as I know, you can sell "art" without a Licence. The ATF Has opened a can of worms. I'm not following your logic. If you have a SBR with a stock that you don't shoulder... according to this ATF decision you are no longer using it as designed and it is now a pistol. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 7:34:49 AM EDT
[#12]
Maybe OP, and every other mouth breather gun owner, should send a thousand letters on the subject for 'clarification'. Since sending a ton of letters worked so well up to this point.
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Posted: 1/17/2015 7:36:31 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you have a SBR with a stock that you don't shoulder... according to this ATF decision you are no longer using it as designed and it is now a pistol. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
According to this: The pistol stabilizing brace was neither “designed” nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a “redesign” of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked.
So if I hang my gun's in a Picture frame, put them on the wall, they are now Art. Far as I know, you can sell "art" without a Licence. The ATF Has opened a can of worms. I'm not following your logic. If you have a SBR with a stock that you don't shoulder... according to this ATF decision you are no longer using it as designed and it is now a pistol. Ahh, unless the receiver was always a rifle, once a rifle, always a rifle. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 7:39:22 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: sat·ire 'sa?ti(?)r/ noun the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues. synonyms:mockery, ridicule, derision, scorn, caricature; Derp Derp your fucking self Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Derp derp derp. That applies ONLY to the stabilizing brace. sat·ire 'sa?ti(?)r/ noun the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues. synonyms:mockery, ridicule, derision, scorn, caricature; Derp Derp your fucking self Lighten up Francis. Hard to tell satire through the internet, doubly so when there are people dumb enough to try what you just said.
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Posted: 1/17/2015 7:50:45 AM EDT
[#15]
I'm writin' a letter, goddammit.
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Posted: 1/17/2015 7:54:29 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The problem is two-fold. First of all, the law is archaic Secondly, people went full tard with how/ what the Brace was used on. While everyone is complaining about "poking the bear with the stick", it seems better to get the real answer now rather than later when we're reading threads about arrests over the stocks. It doesn't affect me, but I'd rather find the snakes in the grass before turning the kids loose. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 7:59:13 AM EDT
[#17]
So sending an individual letter to the ATF in reference to every single gas block / barrel length / caliber / muzzle break combination anyone could conceivably create was a bad idea?
This agent didn't like swimming in those 8000 monthly letters from every diabetes blob at the gun show? Is it OK for me to say I love guns but I hate gun owners now? Intacto? |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 8:00:32 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While everyone is complaining about "poking the bear with the stick", it seems better to get the real answer now rather than later when we're reading threads about arrests over the stocks. It doesn't affect me, but I'd rather find the snakes in the grass before turning the kids loose. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The problem is two-fold. First of all, the law is archaic Secondly, people went full tard with how/ what the Brace was used on. While everyone is complaining about "poking the bear with the stick", it seems better to get the real answer now rather than later when we're reading threads about arrests over the stocks. It doesn't affect me, but I'd rather find the snakes in the grass before turning the kids loose. Who is getting arrested? Is the ATF planning on raids based on social media photos? Staking out ranges? I think the ATF is a pile of dildos, but some people are way too paranoid about this shit. Take the original letter at face value and go enjoy the damn brace. Step 1: Gun owners couldn't leave well enough alone and they finally got the response they forced. Step 2: Write some more letters and get the thing banned altogether. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 8:18:35 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who is getting arrested? Is the ATF planning on raids based on social media photos? Staking out ranges? I think the ATF is a pile of dildos, but some people are way too paranoid about this shit. Take the original letter at face value and go enjoy the damn brace. Step 1: Gun owners couldn't leave well enough alone and they finally got the response they forced. Step 2: Write some more letters and get the thing banned altogether. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem is two-fold. First of all, the law is archaic Secondly, people went full tard with how/ what the Brace was used on. While everyone is complaining about "poking the bear with the stick", it seems better to get the real answer now rather than later when we're reading threads about arrests over the stocks. It doesn't affect me, but I'd rather find the snakes in the grass before turning the kids loose. Who is getting arrested? Is the ATF planning on raids based on social media photos? Staking out ranges? I think the ATF is a pile of dildos, but some people are way too paranoid about this shit. Take the original letter at face value and go enjoy the damn brace. Step 1: Gun owners couldn't leave well enough alone and they finally got the response they forced. Step 2: Write some more letters and get the thing banned altogether. Some guy's life was destroyed a few years ago when his semi-auto rifle went full auto. I may have the story wrong, but it doesn't matter. If there is a supervisor in the ATF that doesn't like these, do you want to be the one he goes after? When you're facing thousands of dollars in legal fees, who is going to bail you out? |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 8:24:48 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
According to this: The pistol stabilizing brace was neither “designed” nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a “redesign” of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked.
So if I hang my gun's in a Picture frame, put them on the wall, they are now Art. Far as I know, you can sell "art" without a Licence. The ATF Has opened a can of worms.
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Posted: 1/17/2015 8:58:41 AM EDT
[#21]
I find it hilarious that everyone with this 20/20 hindsight vision is bashing gun owners who were, at that point, 100% following the law instead of the ATF who's actually imposing this bull.
Our own worst enemies indeed. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:01:29 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I find it hilarious that everyone with this 20/20 hindsight vision is bashing gun owners who were, at that point, 100% following the law instead of the ATF who's actually imposing this bull. Our own worst enemies indeed. But I got 100,000+ views on my dat there youtube vid. That is what really matters. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:07:00 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Some guy's life was destroyed a few years ago when his semi-auto rifle went full auto. I may have the story wrong, but it doesn't matter. If there is a supervisor in the ATF that doesn't like these, do you want to be the one he goes after? When you're facing thousands of dollars in legal fees, who is going to bail you out? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The problem is two-fold. First of all, the law is archaic Secondly, people went full tard with how/ what the Brace was used on. While everyone is complaining about "poking the bear with the stick", it seems better to get the real answer now rather than later when we're reading threads about arrests over the stocks. It doesn't affect me, but I'd rather find the snakes in the grass before turning the kids loose. Who is getting arrested? Is the ATF planning on raids based on social media photos? Staking out ranges? I think the ATF is a pile of dildos, but some people are way too paranoid about this shit. Take the original letter at face value and go enjoy the damn brace. Step 1: Gun owners couldn't leave well enough alone and they finally got the response they forced. Step 2: Write some more letters and get the thing banned altogether. Some guy's life was destroyed a few years ago when his semi-auto rifle went full auto. I may have the story wrong, but it doesn't matter. If there is a supervisor in the ATF that doesn't like these, do you want to be the one he goes after? When you're facing thousands of dollars in legal fees, who is going to bail you out? All I'm saying is is that people couldn't leave well enough alone. They proposed grey area and got a response they don't like. Now they're bitching and poised to write some more letters full of hypotheticals and grey area. Is there more to this semi to full auto story? I wish my rifles magically developed that problem. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:13:59 AM EDT
[#24]
IBTL
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:18:22 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The problem is two-fold. First of all, the law is archaic Secondly, people went full tard with how/ what the Brace was used on. That. the "woo hoo look at me skirt the law then rub it in the ATFs face" was the death nail for that fucking product. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:22:53 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
The ATF Has opened a can of worms. Only for those who don't understand english. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:26:14 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The ATF Has opened a can of worms. No, the owners did. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:30:05 AM EDT
[#28]
IIRC his rifle was firing twice per trigger pull. He asked a forum (maybe this one?) for help fixing the issue and the ATF busted him and ruined his life for a malfunction that they could not repeat until they actually modified the rifle themselves.
ETA for SDB666 |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:34:42 AM EDT
[#29]
I wonder how many will get nailed for "Intent"  |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:36:23 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That. the "woo hoo look at me skirt the law then rub it in the ATFs face" was the death nail for that fucking product. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The problem is two-fold. First of all, the law is archaic Secondly, people went full tard with how/ what the Brace was used on. That. the "woo hoo look at me skirt the law then rub it in the ATFs face" was the death nail for that fucking product. Jousting with the ATF will end up with losing rights, less because the ATF wants to take your rights away and more because the bureaucrats don't handle idiots well. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:41:23 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I find it hilarious that everyone with this 20/20 hindsight vision is bashing gun owners who were, at that point, 100% following the law instead of the ATF who's actually imposing this bull. Our own worst enemies indeed. So if someone pokes a bear with a stick, and the bear doesn't react, I should support poking him again, and then be mad at the bear for attacking? |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:48:11 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The law is very clear that classification is based on design intent. If, as the ATF are suggesting, that alternative usage constitutes redesign then I may now fit autosears to my ARs and they aren't MGs providing that I only shoot them in semi-auto (as far as anyone knows....). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The problem is two-fold. First of all, the law is archaic Secondly, people went full tard with how/ what the Brace was used on. The law is very clear that classification is based on design intent. If, as the ATF are suggesting, that alternative usage constitutes redesign then I may now fit autosears to my ARs and they aren't MGs providing that I only shoot them in semi-auto (as far as anyone knows....). these lowers are for airsoft Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:49:58 AM EDT
[#33]
An unconstitutional ruling by an unconstitutional agency on an unconstitutional law, but we're blaming gun owners.
Sounds about right. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:51:23 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Derp derp derp. That applies ONLY to the stabilizing brace.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
According to this: The pistol stabilizing brace was neither "designed” nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a "redesign” of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked.
So if I hang my gun's in a Picture frame, put them on the wall, they are now Art. Far as I know, you can sell "art" without a Licence. The ATF Has opened a can of worms. Derp derp derp. That applies ONLY to the stabilizing brace.
and shoestrings Quoted:
So if someone pokes a bear with a stick, and the bear doesn't react, I should support poking him again, and then be mad at the bear for attacking? We should be mad at the bear for attacking us in the first place (1968 at it's birth) and the mama who birthed it ( NFA in 1934) |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:58:10 AM EDT
[#35]
I just love the mental gymnastics of the club foot crowd....And then....And then....They write a letter to the ATF to ask them to comment officially on the obvious....
Jesus wept they are stupid.
If I was fielding such a question at the ATF I'd fuck with their heads too. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:59:30 AM EDT
[#36]
Dear ATF Patriarchs,
I am writing to inquire about the effects that your hetero cage of cis-arms control will have on my performance art piece. I am looking to design an artistic reinterpretation of the M134 minigun. Although it will be am exact replication in a literal sense, I hope that you will overlook the inherent privilege of your worldview and understand that since the piece of art will never fire a projectile or does not meet any legal definition of a weapon. A reply clarifying the legality of this project would be greatly appreciated.
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Posted: 1/17/2015 10:01:02 AM EDT
[#37]
I think the fact that manufacturers were coming out with products off the line with these braces on them was the real smack in the face. Because everyone knew the final use for all of them. They would have been better off to leave well alone, launched new pistol configs, and offer the braces and adapters separately as an assessory as it was intended. Just my thought.
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Posted: 1/17/2015 10:01:58 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An unconstitutional ruling by an unconstitutional agency on an unconstitutional law, but we're blaming gun owners. Sounds about right. What have you done lately to take down that Unconstitutional agency? They may be Unconstitutional, but the courts and Law Enforcement seem to recognize their power. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 10:04:39 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ahh, unless the receiver was always a rifle, once a rifle, always a rifle. Because that's what the ATF decided.
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Posted: 1/17/2015 10:10:10 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An unconstitutional ruling by an unconstitutional agency on an unconstitutional law, but we're blaming gun owners. Sounds about right. While I agree on the unconstitutionality of the law, and because of the 2A, the unconstitutionality of the agency (regulating something that .gov is barred from regulating)...... Gun owners were at fault for constantly pestering the government about something that went our way. Instead of just going with it, they asked and poked and prodded. Now that decision is overturned. For what? Is the BATFE likely to go away any time soon? No. .gov isn't going to give that up, not in my lifetime. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 10:12:04 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think the fact that manufacturers were coming out with products off the line with these braces on them was the real smack in the face. Because everyone knew the final use for all of them. They would have been better off to leave well alone, launched new pistol configs, and offer the braces and adapters separately as an assessory as it was intended. Just my thought. Your post makes no sense. There is no other purpose for the brace except to install on a pistol, so what would it matter if they are bundled? |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 10:29:37 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your post makes no sense. There is no other purpose for the brace except to install on a pistol, so what would it matter if they are bundled? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I think the fact that manufacturers were coming out with products off the line with these braces on them was the real smack in the face. Because everyone knew the final use for all of them. They would have been better off to leave well alone, launched new pistol configs, and offer the braces and adapters separately as an assessory as it was intended. Just my thought. Your post makes no sense. There is no other purpose for the brace except to install on a pistol, so what would it matter if they are bundled? Because the feds sometimes let shit slide. However, when it gets into the blatant selling of things, usually with the included disclaimer "The ATF doesn't care if you shoulder this! :D :D :D", then the ATF kinda has to smack down the little children. Also remember, one letter was a SOT asking if he could install one on a short barrel shotgun, and only pay the AOW $5 tax, not the full $200 SBS tax. Every screw-turner, fly by night, "AR15 smith", or others, were purposefully marketing them as something to shoulder. If it was just left up to the public to modify, that'd be one thing. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 10:32:03 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because that's what the ATF decided. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ahh, unless the receiver was always a rifle, once a rifle, always a rifle. Because that's what the ATF decided. If usage determines classification, I don't see why that can't be challenged as well. 
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Posted: 1/17/2015 10:32:26 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
sat·ire 'sa?ti(?)r/ noun the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues. synonyms:mockery, ridicule, derision, scorn, caricature; Derp Derp your fucking self Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Derp derp derp. That applies ONLY to the stabilizing brace.
sat·ire 'sa?ti(?)r/ noun the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues. synonyms:mockery, ridicule, derision, scorn, caricature; Derp Derp your fucking self And throw in a herp for good measure. 
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Posted: 1/17/2015 10:36:19 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An unconstitutional ruling by an unconstitutional agency on an unconstitutional law, but we're blaming gun owners. Sounds about right. Pretty much. There's no due process here. It's just them dictating the law. Kinda makes me think of NYC and how they enacted a "big soda ban" only to have it revoked because it violated separation of powers since the board in question was appointed by the mayor. Perhaps it's time the courts reviewed the ATF in the same light... Like in NYC's soda ban, the rules are being upheld arbitrarily, picking and choosing which firearms or parts they apply to... not to mention the backbone of many of these laws seem to be, "Because we said so!". Not to mention the fact that they are directly influenced by the administration... so their actions are often guided by political pressure rather than even lip-service to the constitution. And there's pretty much zero accountability. 
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Posted: 1/17/2015 10:42:11 AM EDT
[#46]
So what happens if the ATF decides most guns were designed "for self defense", and thus using them for target practice constitutes a redesign of the device?
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Posted: 1/17/2015 10:45:57 AM EDT
[#47]
Was that letter addressed to you? If not then don't worry about it.
I learned this in the GD
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Posted: 1/17/2015 10:46:25 AM EDT
[#48]
The next issue will be Constructive Intent.
They will figure out a way to prove or disprove what your intent was for said stock. Technically you have the parts to make an illegal weapon........if you shoulder it. Someone should write a letter or something.......
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Posted: 1/17/2015 10:49:31 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I find it hilarious that everyone with this 20/20 hindsight vision is bashing gun owners who were, at that point, 100% following the law instead of the ATF who's actually imposing this bull. Our own worst enemies indeed. No shit. Bunch of boot licking mothefuckers around here. The law is fucktarded. The ATF flip flops on shit like every other agency or gov rep. Some of you want to gloat that they flipped on the Sig brace instead of being pissed at the stupid law it was designed to "comply" with.
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Posted: 1/17/2015 10:52:58 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
............... No shit. Bunch of boot licking mothefuckers around here. The law is fucktarded. The ATF flip flops on shit like every other agency or gov rep. Some of you want to gloat that they flipped on the Sig brace instead of being pissed at the stupid law it was designed to "comply" with.
Not only did they FLIP..............they opened up a can of clusterfuck as big as the Pacific Ocean IMHO. |
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