From [url]http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/West/12/22/muslim.convention.ap/index.html[/url]:

[b]Patriot Act threat to democracy, Muslims say[/b]

Sunday, December 22, 2002 Posted: 8:52 AM EST (1352 GMT)

LONG BEACH, California (AP) -- The USA Patriot Act passed in response to the September 11 terrorist attacks is the biggest threat to democracy in the United States, Muslim leaders and activists said Saturday.

The denunciation at a Muslim-American convention came days after vocal protests were held over the detention of hundreds of Middle Eastern immigrants who voluntarily registered with the Immigration and Naturalization Service under new federal guidelines, and urged for an end the program.

Speakers at the Muslim Public Affairs Council convention called on the public to challenge the Patriot Act, which they called an unconstitutional law that violates basic civil liberties.

They also urged the roughly 1,500 people attending to demand that the media provide diverse perspectives on the potential war with Iraq to complement the official government stand.

"The Patriot Act is the biggest attack on democracy in America right now," council board chairman Omar Ricci said in his opening speech at the two-day annual conference.

The Patriot Act, approved in October 2001, gives the government new powers to obtain personal information about U.S. citizens and allows the government to detain aliens deemed threats to national security and hold them without public acknowledgment.

It also has given federal law enforcement agencies greater wiretap authority, access to student and library records and new Internet wiretap powers.

 
Joseph Zogby, an attorney from the Justice Department, takes questions at the Muslim convention.  



Bryan Sierra, a spokesman for the U.S. Department of Justice, defended the Patriot Act as "an incredibly valuable tool in the war on terrorism."

"Ultimately, the question of civil liberties and what infringes on the Constitution is a matter for the courts to decide," Sierra said in a telephone interview from Washington. "But the ultimate goal here is liberty and safety and the security of Americans."

Francisco Arcaute, an INS spokesman in Los Angeles, declined to comment Saturday.

Justice attorney Joseph Zogby, who attended the conference, said he would relay the council's concerns about alleged civil rights abuses to the Attorney General. Zogby also said the department does not have control over INS policies.

Zogby, who works in the department's post-September 11 hate crimes investigation division, urged people to register civil rights complaints.

Council board member Gasser Hathout compared the Patriot Act to the Alien and Sedition Act of 1789, which made it illegal to criticize then-President John Adams. He said civil liberties also came under attack in the 1950s from the House Un-American Activities Committee and in the 1960s when the FBI investigated civil rights activists and Vietnam War opponents.

"I'm calling on people not to surrender their civil rights," Hathout said after a morning panel discussion. "They are not mutually exclusive things, security or civil rights."

Hathout said he had statistics showing that since the Patriot Act was approved, the number of federal subpoenas of phone and Internet records have been doubling every month and have reached into the thousands.

He also urged the audience not to be cowed into silence about the potential war with Iraq or restrictions on their civil liberties.
--

-kill-9

That's a stupid way of asking a question. Matter of fact, it reads like a question one would expect from "objective" media like CNN.

How about asking "Does the Patriot Act inflict on everybody's rights, Christian, Atheists and Muslims alike?" instead.

While I agree with some of the Patriot Act, I am concerned about this setting a precedent for our government to use this act against red blooded Americans like ourselves when the threat of terrorism is all gone. This is one area where it crosses the line for me. Any one of us here can be a target for this act in the future and quite frankly I don't trust our government with that much power because nothing they do under the act has to be accounted for in the public eye. Not quite a tyranny, but a big step in that direction.

Don't like my thread?  Go start your own.  [:D]

-kill-9

Have you stopped beating your wife yet ?

Are you still gay?

Just because they are Muslims doesn't mean that they should get treated any different than anyone else that over stays a visa or does any crimes in this country.

Send their a$$ home and ban them from coming back. Unless they are citizen of the US they are a guest here and no more.

The only thing wrong with the Patriot Act is that in their rush to be fair, equitable, whatever, the government officials are treating [u]everybody[/u] like they could be the problem!

That's like looking for crack dealers in Beverly Hills, California, or Highland Park, Texas!

They ain't [u]there[/u]!

You guys would been a real hoot during WWII, what with all the security checks, rationing, and stuff that went on then. And few violent acts ever occurred on American soil.

Now we've had the biggest attack on American soil since at least the War of 1812, [b]by folks who were peaceably living among us and presumably minding their own business![/b]

Things had better change! [b]Not for us, but for our so-called friendly visitors![/b]

F*** them, and screw their demon possessed spiritual leaders who tell them one thing in the mosque and another thing in front of television cameras!

If I hear another idiot say, 'Sept 11th was surely a tragedy, but you know, to be honest, America had it coming', I think I'll puke!

Eric The(Honest)Hun[>]:)]

Well, is it Constitutional to bar a citizen of the U.S. from legal representation? That in and of itself makes the Patriot Act unConstitutional.....

Scott

[img]http://www.dixienet.org/images/animated/ani-csa-flags/new_3rdcsa_ani.gif[/img]

How bout we invoke the Patriot act ONLY those who are NOT!!! US citizens.  Sure everyone has a certain amount of rights and as US Citizens I like the ones I have. However those who are from another country and who are in this country need to be watched in whatever way possible. The amount of whining crybabies who are screaming about the unfairness of the Muslim population are not even from the US.

So my answer is no, Not to invoke it on everyone.

However there are some prerequisites that could be followed in order for those whom are in the small percentage of the "Muslim" population to be monitored!!!

How hard is that to just come out and say okay people, Your not from here, You are either out of here or agree with this and this and this and this. If your freakin' country is so good and we are so evil then get the hell out of here. You are not US Citizens so in the imortal words of the saturday night live stewardess skits.....buh-bye...

Those of you whom are us citizens but of the muslim persuasion please also stand by for some monitoring on occasion.

Regards,

Stacey

You are forgotting those pesky little things called rights.


As if ANY of that stuff was constitutional or even necessary.

---

The "PATRIOT" act is right up there with the NFA34 and GCA68 in violations of rights. A terrible piece of legislation that should be stricken down immediately. And I thought we had a "conservative" administration.

Any of you folks actually know what is in the Patriot Act, or are you just spouting off?

Most of it deals with re-organization of the government for Homeland Security.

The part the Muslim community is upset over is a requirement tha immigrants from 14 countries designated as a high risk for terrorism register with INS. Subsequent immigrants will be registered upon entry to the US. Failing to register, overstaying a visa, failing to check in every 6 months or failing to update addresses will lead to the visa being revoked and a warrant being issued, which will be accessible through NCIC and will show up when local cops run warrant checks (conveniently ducking around the fact that most local PDs refuse to handle immigration issues, but are legally bound to serve warrants). INS wants to eventually apply this to ALL immigrants, although they are facing some opposition from iimigrant political groups. Sounds fine to me.

Gee, [b]natez[/b], don't try to confuse these boys with facts! They know darn good and well these Moslems wouldn't be lying to them about what [u]they[/u] found wrong with the Patriot Act!

Get a grip!

BTW, [b]libertyof76[/b]:

Well, since you've never led a nation in war, and our fathers and grandfathers [u]have[/u], I'd be more likely to see things [u]their[/u] way, not yours.

If you don't mind!

Eric The(WarIsHell)Hun[>]:)]

ETH, do you mean this literally?  Do you truly believe that they're possessed by actual demons?

(Just trying to gauge the state of mind of the folks here)

-kill-9

Post from kill-9 -

Yes, as literally as I believe that anyone who cites any scripture of any religion as an excuse to butcher innocent people, can be demon possessed!

Now, I'm not talking about the 'Billy Grahams' of Islamdom, the ones who are so Westernized in their thoughts to have purged the sword from Mohammad's hand, but those who see Islam as the only choice to be made in this world, and that folks who don't make it are worthy to be killed wholesale!

The Lord I worship doesn't ask you to kill anyone's son in order for you to be saved.

The Lord I worship sent His only begotten Son to be killed in order for you to be saved.

There's the distinction of an Eternity!

Eric The(Redeemed)Hun[>]:)]

Will you guys accept the Billy Graham-ized muslims?

Sure, why not? As long as they aren't trying to carry out a Jihad on Christendom, as they did [b]from the 7th to the 19th Centuries, AD[/b], they're OK by me!

Some folks seem to forget that the Crusades was nothing more than an effort by Christendom to reclaim lands that were formerly Christian, that were overrun by the Muslims!

Don't forget that Egypt and Syria, and present-day Turkey were great centers of Christianity in the earliest centuries, AD.

Until Islam came along.

Eric The(JustStatingTheFacts!)Hun[>]:)]

Stacey,

Suppose you as a U.S. citizen are profiled as a "terrorist" for belonging to this board and doing other "suspicious" activities? For instance, you go to the FAS website to read up on bio-chem warfare. Then you do a Google Search for "Anthrax", out of curiosity about the disease. Well, they maek bombs too. Better see what I can find out about homemade bombs, and ways to detect them.

Now, you are locked away [b]AN AMERICAN CITIZEN[/b] without any of your Constitutional rights. They can even hide you away for [b]YEARS[/b] without any contact with the outside world and with [b]NO ONE[/b] knowing where you are being held.....

Scott

Anyone else see the delicious irony here?

For years I've been trying to tell liberals that the gun laws don't just harm the second amendment. When you compromise one natural right, you have compromised them all. The liberals inevitability hear this statement and think I'm preaching armed revolt. I.E. What can your puny rifle do against tanks?!!!?!

Bla

Anyway, I've been watching this debate since the inception of the legislation.  I've found it humorous to watch the democrats struggle with the concept of assumed intent and loss of constitutional rights. They struggle for an analogy... then say things like "They are being treated like the Japanese during WWII" or "the jews during WWII"

All the while I'm thinking "gun owners during the Clinton administration"   [:D]

Look, I never really cared about Muslims and what they believed.  Until they started ramming jets into our cities, and then watching the Muslim community do nothing to help hem in the murderous radicals in their community.  Instead they cheer and fork over millions to help in the jihad.

Muslims, you can believe whatever you want.  I dont fucking care if your religion and beliefs arent the same as mine.  But some of you murder in your religion's name.  In your god's name.  What you have to do is deny funding and social support to those killers.  You have to help the US government without any qualification about aiding Israel or getting on a high horse about our foreign policy.

If you dont, I am sorry to say, you are just as culpable as the terrorists.  Because YOU, the Ummah, have way more pull and sway over the viability of international terror than the United States.  If you not only reject, but ASSIST in helping destroy the terror networks, I will think more highly of Islam.

But I tell you, I do not like what you Muslims have done so far.  It is very very lacking.

Ahhhhh, but Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Greece, Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Poland, Russia, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, England, Scotland, Ireland, America, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Columbia, Uraguay, Bolivia, Argentina, Philipines, Chile, Australia, New Zealand, and lots of others were Poly-deistic Animists before christians came along.

Actually, it says 'the Accused', not 'people', and the SCOTUS has said that 'the accused' means ANYBODY not just 'the people'.  [i]Urido-veriques [/i](or something like that)[i] vs US[/i] (1990), I remember it because it is one of the cases were the SCOTUS talk about the 2nd Amendment meaning an Individual Right.  So it is unConstituational to bar ANYONE from legal council within the borders of the US.  Why do you think all the 'terrorists' are going to Gitmo?

If they want to conduct a Crusade against us, then these countries are more than welcome!

As a matter of fact, bring it on!

The countries in the Old World were converted without swords. The countries in the New World were conquered for commercial reasons alone, but did get the benefit of Christianity thrown into the bargain.

Just ask the natives of Central and South America if they would like to give up their Chrsitianity now!

They are more committed to Christianity, in most respects, then those in North America!

Besides those who laugh last, laugh best!

And I believe we've had the last laugh, and have been promised the very last laugh!

Eric The(WaitingForThatFinalCurtainToFall)Hun[>]:)]

[b]Silence[/b], had the Founding Fathers of this country not been Christians designing a document for a Christian nation, there would have been [u]no[/u] Constitution, at all.

Nor would there likely have been a revolution, at least not at that time in history.

Eric The(ThankGodTheyWereChristian!)Hun[>]:)]

Couple of points.

Europe was converted as much by the sword as not.  

And the behavior of the 'christians' in the conversion of the new world was atrocious.  TO say otherwise is to whitewash the facts.

The founding fathers would be as appalled by todays 'christians' as they were by the King forcing the CoE on them.  The Majority of them were not 'christians' as YOU would describe it, Unitarianism is what best describes them.  And I have seen on this site Unitarianism described as not being 'true christianity'.

The Revolution was not about Religion.  The Revolution was about a group of Elites deciding that they could rule themselves better than somebody 3000 miles and an ocean away.  The fact that they were NOT christians (as it would be recognized today) gave us the freedoms we have today.  If they HAD been christians (as it is recognized today) the country would have spiraled into totalitarianism a long time ago.

If they were such good 'christians' as you say, How many times did they mention Christ in the Documents?  As a matter of fact didnt a couple of them go on the record back in the day and specifically say that the United States was [b]NOT[/b] a 'christian nation'?

BTW I thank go they were NOT Christian, or at least not the Fundamental Christianity that is shoved down everybody's craw today.  I Thank God every day for that fact.

Post from silence -

Really? Where? Name the countries and the events....

The Christians discovered a very atrocious New World, didn't they?

Slavery, infanticide, cannibalism, both ritual and gustatory, religious murder, unrelieved warfare, cruelty, and the whole host of human failures greeted the conquerors in the New World.

To say otherwise would whitewash the facts, as well.

Pardon me, but [b]BULLSHIT![/b]

That's the most absurd thing that I've ever heard said about the Founding Fathers!

And it's completely speculative on your part. The Christianity of their day was, in every sense, was just as 'fundamental' as any Fundamentalist Christian believes today!

Oh really? Can you name the Founding Fathers who were Unitarians? Let's see that exhaustive list!

It would be rather strange, indeed, for anyone to believe such BULLSHIT, since the Unitarians were outnumbered by mainline churches even in their native New England!

C'mon, let's the the stats for your absurd statement!

It's like the BULLSHIT saying that the Founding Fathers were all Deists, when, at best (or worst), only three can be reasonably identified with that view - Jefferson, Franklin, and Adams. And even Franklin relented of Deism at the end of his life!

Now, that's the first true thing you've said in this post!

BTW, isn't it a hoot that the SpellChecker still prompts for a correction anytime the word 'Christian' is used without a capital 'C'?

But then, I suppose [u]that[/u] is a Fundamentalist belief, as well!

Eric The(Fundamental)Hun[>]:)]

Thanks God (the Christian one) for the Christians. Of all the religions of the world, only Christians are able to tolerate and encourage the practice of alternative believes. Only Christians are so steadfast in their believes that they can allow other believes to flourish. This country could only have come from Christians.

Sorry, [b]Silence[/b], I neglected to address your final 'point' -

If [u]something[/u] is being shoved down your craw, I sincerely doubt that it is Fundamental Christianity, whatever else it might be!

Yes, I am quite certain that He appreciates the way that you show such '[red][b]love for one another[/b][/red]', eh?

Eric The(HeimlichManeuversAvailableFreeOfCharge!)Hun[>]:)]

Let's see what a few of the Founders said:

[b]John Adams, Second President:[/b]

(Speaking of July 4, 1776) - “I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”

“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

[b]Patrick Henry, Founding Father:[/b]

“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.”

“[The Bible] is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed.”

[b]John Jay, First Chief Justice of the Supreme Court:[/b]

“Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the pivilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”

[b]Alex de Tocqueville, (not a Founding Father, but an interesting thought) French historian who visited the U.S. in the early 1800's:[/b]

“Upon my arrival in the United States, the religious aspeect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention...The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their mindds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other... Religion in America...must...be regarded as the foremost of the political institutions of that country,,, From the earliest settlement of the emigrants, politics and religion contracted an alliance which has never been dissolved.”

[b]John Quincy Adams, Sixth President (son of John Adams, Second President):[/b]

“[T]he birth-day of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birth-day of the Saviour [and] forms a leading even in the progress of the gospel dispensation..[T]he Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth [and] laid the corner stone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.”

[b]Noah Webster, Founding Father:[/b]

“[T]he religion which has introduced civil liberty, is the religion of Christ and his apostles, which enjoins humility, piety and benevolence; which acknowledges in every person a brother, or a sister, and a citizen with equal rights. This is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free constitutions of government. ”

“The moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and law... All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.”

[b]Dr. Jedediah Morse, The Father of American Geography;[/b]

“To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. In proportion as the genuine effects of Christianity are diminished in any nation...in the same proportion will the people of that nation recede from the blessings of genuine freedom... All efforts to destroy the foundations of our holy religion, ultimately tend to the subversion also of our political freedom and happiness. Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all the blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.”

[b]William Holmes McGuffey, Publisher of the McGuffey Readers a vital cornerstone of this nation's early education system:[/b]

“From no source has the author drawn more copiously than from the Sacred Scriptures. For this I certainly apprehend no censure. In a Christian country, that man is to be pitied, who, at this day, can honestly object to imbuing the minds of youth with the language and spirit of the Word of God.”

[b]Thomas Jefferson, Third President:[/b]

“And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever.”

[b]George Washington, First President:[/b]

“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.”

[b]Abraham Lincoln, Sixteenth President:[/b]

“But for [the Bible] we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man's welfare...are to be found portrayed in it. ”

[b]Harry S. Truman, Thirty-Third President (not a "founding father," but still interesting):[/b]

“The basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have a proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a...government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the State!”

I threw in that last one as being prophetic of what is set in store for this nation when it fails to remember that [b]Jesus Christ[/b] was and is the True and Only Author of Liberty this world will ever know!

[size=4][red]Merry Christmas, America![/red][/size=4]

Eric The(Fundamental)Hun[>]:)]

Amen

I hold this truth to be self evident:

Eric the Hun [size=6]ROCKS[/size=6]

Rancid Lance

Vote "Yes" on the national Pre-Crime Initiative!

eth-

Pardon me, but..

Your views are just as much Bullshit as mine.  I applaud you strident adherence to them.  But they still are just so much [b]BULLSHIT![/b]

And the Belief in GOD is different than being Christian (as you would define it I am guessing).  The muslims believe in the same God as christians, so do the jews.

I never said that they WERE unitarians, I said that would best describe their beliefs.  If that was a hard distinction to make, I apologize.  You know the unitarians, they believe in GOD and they even believe in Christ (they do reject the deification of Christ though), and try to live as Jesus did, you know forgiving the sinners, and living their life in a moral and good way.  So they can believe in GOD and Christ, and believe that they should be 'godly' and yet not meet the strict definition of 'christian' as you describe it from your agreement with the statement that 'unitarians are not true christians'.  I dont agree with that statement, I personally believe that a true moral unitarian is MORE a christian than a biblethumper that screws his secretary on the side, or steals from the collection plate for his own aggrandizment.

I would say that they were more the 'live as Christ would' instead of the 'say you are saved then do anything you damn well please' crowd.  I never said they were not Christians, I said they were not christians as would be decribed today.

I never claimed that they were not religious, there were really only two vocally active Founders who were anti-religion (thomas paine, ethan allen), but rather you would not consider them to be christians today.  They didnt practice the same type of christianity as is widely understood today.

I notice a bunch of 'second string' founders, where are the BIG guns?

Washington never expressed any religious views publicly.  He did express views that morality was important, and that the base of morality was religion.  But he was never clear and in the open in his beliefs.  During the Revolution he appointed a deist (I think, could have been a unitarian) minister to the army over the objections of some of the more 'orthodox' founders.

Madison wanted total seperation of church and state (that is where we get the phrase, not from the Constitution itself), and had un-nice things to say about papalism (catholicism) and 'fundamentalists' as we would call them today.

You've already covered Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin.    

Lets face it without the leadership of those men there would be no America as we know it.  Who is to say what would have come about.  Unlike others, I am glad that they didnt include their religion into government.  If these men hadnt have been around I am sure we would have been much worse off.  We wouldnt have a Declaration of Indepence, or a Constitution, or probably even out Freedom from England.  I think the fact that these men were not the bible-thumping morons that abound today is part of their greatness.  Of course to you that is just bullshit.  


One thing- How many times is Christ mentioned in the Founding Documents? I missed your comment on that?  I would think that if they were such 'good christians' they wouldve added that into there somewhere.  

We can argue about what a 'Christian' is ad nauseum, I will hold to my personal belief that it is more important HOW you live, that how you SAY you do.

Charlemagne's slaughter of the "heathen" Saxons, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the 30yrs War, witch burnings, and Ireland, anyone?

I have one problem alone with the "Patriot Act"

Benjamin Franklin: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Now lets say the republicans lose the next election...or one gets elected which is less defensive of the 2nd and/or some Gore wanna be decides that owning firearms constitues a 'potential threat' against the Government. To think that the some of the powers that be don't already think this is being naive. Wait and see until Sept of '04 when the ban is ready to sunset...there will be some lib screaming about 'potential terrorism' using 'assault weapons' It will be renewed.

The groundwork is already laid out - and I'm beginning to feel we're well on our way to some utopian New World Order/One World Government (yeah, my tinfoil hat is screwed on tight!)

Wiretaps, internet monitoring, the loosening of Federal Agent restrictions, 'call in your neighbor', etc. (as we saw with the DC shooter) - I don't like this one bit.

Post from Silence -

No, the Muslims [u]say[/u] they believe in the same God as Christians and Jews, but their most Holy book, the Koran, does not support that view!

Then it should be easy for you to supply me a listing of all of the Founding Fathers who 'believed as if they were Unitarians', I suppose. But since that list would be very subjective on your part, I must insist on clear and concise statements and actions from each of the Founding Fathers you cite, that their views could, actually, be 'best described as Unitarian'!

Wow, what a paragraph! Let's just agree that no one can be accurately called a 'Christian' who does not believe in the Christ as he revealed Himself in the Bible. Fair enough?

Actually, [u]neither[/u] of the individuals is more of a 'Christian' than the other!

The Unitarian, because he does not confess that Jesus is the Son of the Living God, nor the 'biblethumper' who may claim Jesus as his Savior, yet keeps not His commandments!

Sorry, but you should know that my beliefs as a Fundamentalist preclude me from believing that either someone who 'lived moral, but with no Christ' or someone 'lived immoral, but with Christ' could be considered a Christian!

Of course they were! There were Christians of all stripes back then, just as there are today.

Wow, you really are going off the deep end here!

'As is widely understood today'? By whom? By the outside world, or those within the Church?

What did you think of my quotes from the Founding Father?

So, my list wasn't 'good enough' for you? That's a damn shame!

No, he just took the Oath of Office by placing his hand upon his own personal Bible, after having attended church services that morning!

Not [u]too[/u] public, eh?

Actually, he said 'the Bible' as distinguished from the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, or any other holy book. See quote, above.

As befitted this private man.

Oh! And that means....???

Can you quote them for us?

Yes, at least I am honest.

Those three men? Without those three men there would have been no Revolution, no Constitution?

You are surely not serious, are you?

Another great paragraph spun out of whole cloth!

The [u]second[/u] time you have been right today!

Most fundamentalists would think it profane to mention Jesus in a political document! But see my quotes above!

Look at these few quotes that I have cited. Do you see the name Jesus or Christ anywhere?  I missed your responses to the quotes I've cited!

That [u]may[/u] be the third time that you've said something right, today!

Eric The(ARecord,Eh?)Hun[>]:)]

Quotes from "Big Gun Madison"..

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."

"Religion [is] the basis and Foundation of Government."

"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage....Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe."

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

"Big Gun" Sam Adams...

"The rights of the colonists as Christians...may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institution of The Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament." (From The Rights of Colonists, 1772)

"We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come."

"He therefore is the truest friend to the liberty of this country who tries most to promote its virtue, and who, so far as his power and influence extend, will not suffer a man to be chosen into any office of power and trust who is not a wise and virtuous man....The sum of all is, if we would most truly enjoy this gift of Heaven, let us become a virtuous people."

Samuel Adams wrote in his Will:

"Principally, and first of all, I resign my soul to the Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying on the merits of Jesus Christ for the pardon of my sins."

"Big Gun" Al Hamilton.....

"I now offer you the outline of the plan they have suggested. Let an association be formed to be denominated 'The Christian Constitutional Society,' its object to be first: The support of the Christian religion. second: The support of the United States.

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man.

"Big Gun" John Hancock.....

"In circumstances dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that, whilst every prudent Measure should be taken to ward off the impending Judgements....All confidence must be withheld from the Means we use; and reposed only on that GOD who rules in the Armies of Heaven, and without whose Blessing the best human Counsels are but Foolishness--and all created Power Vanity;

"It is the Happiness of his Church that, when the Powers of Earth and Hell combine against it...that the Throne of Grace is of the easiest access--and its Appeal thither is graciously invited by the Father of Mercies, who has assured it, that when his Children ask Bread he will not give them a Stone....

"Big Gun" Ben Franklin....note his references to Christian scripture..

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God Governs the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?

"We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

"I therefore beg leave to move--that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service."

There's plenty more. Remember, these men were only a couple of generations removed from the "Fundamentalists" who first came here. They were prolly MORE "fundamental" than we are today......

ETH-

Thanks for the condescension, I appreciate it.

I guess we will disagree on a few issues.

I believe that it is more important to live a good life, than to believe in the fairytale of the trinity.  And I believe that if the Founders had been the christians as you seem view them to be, they would have plastered 'Christ' all over the documents.  The Constitution would have looked like the Sharia.  

As Madison said in 1785:



Yes there were Calvinists and other 'Fundalmentalists' among the founders, but they knew better than to intrude, or were prevented from intruding, religion into government.  The thing that makes America great is the fact that we do not intertwine religion and government, and we should keep ut that way.


As to the importance of the 'Founding Trio' without Jefferson to give the Revolution direction with the Declaration of Independence and the bases of the freedoms in the Virginia Bill of Rights, without Washington to hold the troops together during the long dark times and to then refuse Kingship, and Madison to forge the Document that became The Constitution, we would not be the United States of America today.  We either would have decended into dictatorship or anarchy long ago.

Yes there were others that were as indispensable, The Adamses (John and Sam) to spark the Revolution and to keep it 'fair and just', Benedict Arnold to keep the British at bay for years (scary isnt it that one of the most successful Revolutionary Generals ended up being branded a traitor), George Mason to tirelessly fight for the Rights of the People, and etc. But the most important three were Jefferson, Washington, and Madison.  

But unlike you I am understanding of your need to be right, even when you are not.  

Sorry to bust yer bubble...

"Big Gun" George Washington...

"The thing that separates the American Christian from every other person on earth is the fact that he would rather die on his feet, than live on his knees!"

"The General orders this day to be religiously observed by the forces under his Command, exactly in manner directed by the Continental Congress. It is therefore strictly enjoined on all officers and soldiers to attend Divine service, And it is expected that all those who go to worship do take their arms, ammunition and accoutrements, and are prepared for immediate action, if called upon."

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion.

To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to laud the more distinguished Character of Christian."

"And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions...[red]to promote the knowledge and practice of the true religion and virtue....[/red]

Given under my hand, at the city of New York, the 3rd of October, A.D. 1789"

George Washington's personal prayer book, consisting of 24 pages in his field notebook, written in his own handwriting, reveal the depth of his character:

"SUNDAY MORNING....Almighty God, and most merciful Father, who didst command the children of Israel to offer a daily sacrifice to Thee, that thereby they might glorify and praise Thee for Thy protection both night and day, receive O Lord, my morning sacrifice which I now offer up to thee;

"I yield Thee humble and hearty thanks, that Thou hast preserved me from the dangers of the night past and brought me to the Light of this day, and the comfort thereof, a day which is consecrated to Thine own service and for Thine own honour.

"Let my heart therefore gracious God be so affected with the glory and majesty of it, that I may not do mine own works but wait on Thee, and discharge those weighty duties Thou required of me: and since Thou art a God of pure eyes, and will be sanctified in all who draw nearer to Thee, who dost not regard the sacrifice of fools, nor hear sinners who tread in Thy courts, pardon I beseech Thee, my sins, remove them from Thy presence, as far as the east is from the west, and accept of me for the merits of Thy son Jesus Christ, that when I come into Thy temple and compass Thine altar, my prayer may come before Thee as incense, and as I desire Thou wouldst hear me calling upon Thee in my prayers, so give me peace to hear the calling on me in Thy word, that it may be wisdom, righteousness, reconciliation and peace to the saving of my soul in the day ofthe Lord Jesus.

"Grant that I may hear it with reverence, receive it with meekness, mingle it with faith, and that it may accomplish in me gracious God, the good work for which Thou hast sent it.

"Bless my family, kindred, friends and country, be our God and guide this day and forever for His sake, who lay down in the grave and arose again for us, Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen."

Heh, heh, heh...........[:D]

[b]"Do you agree with the Muslim Community in their claim that 2+2=4?"[/b]

No.

I'm not playing that game. I'm not going to agree with a damned thing they say or want.
Not until THEY make more of an effort, start turning in more Terrorists, and get down on their knees and beg forgiveness.

Liberty86-

You are about as perceptive to subtle nuances as ETH.  And you are great with the selective quoting of what I said.

Here is what I said:



Now I will explain that this was in the context of whether or not he was a Deist, Unitarian, Calvanist, or some other sect of christianity.

On an internet board, it's next to impossible for me to see "subtle nuances", so I go by the printed word, which in your case stated Washington never publicly expressed his views, and that the Majority of founders were not Christian.

You are wrong on all counts.........

The Muslim sleeper cells and their support is running for cover and now trying to hide behind their rights and the righteously indignant Americans..
If the law is actually applied to the real enemies of America then they would have something to worry about...maybe they are starting to feel the heat..if so its about time imo

Muslims...the religion of peace, NOT!

Fuk'em, poke them all in the eye and send them back.

Oh, If they are naturalized Americans...revoke their citizenship, then poke them in the eye and send them back!

The actual question was ..."Is the Patriot Act the [b]biggest[/b] threat" or is terrorism the biggest threat.  At least that's the way I interpret it.

So, I say no, terrorism is the biggest threat.  I won't deny that people's rights have and will be abused.  Even citizen's right's (the larger issue to me) seem to have been abused if stories are correct.  I lean toward the more practical view that the Constitution is not a suicide pact.  When the nation is threatened, just like when your home or family is threatened you do not consult the letter of the law to govern what may be a correct instinct for survival.

As if those who have fought in war are any experts on Constitutional Law. You are sidestepping the question. Show me in the Constitution where ANY of those things Roosevelt did were authorized. Good luck, because they weren't! Just because something is expedient doesn't mean it is right.




So you agree with the Founders on Religion(which I do to), yet ignore them on foreign policy? Let's see what they said on foreign policy:

"The Great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign Nations is in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. `Tis our true policy to steer clear of permanent Alliances, with any portion of the foreign World."-George Washington, 1796

"Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto." - Thomas Jefferson, 1799

"I deem [one of] the essential principles of our government [to be] peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none..." - Thomas Jefferson, 1801

"It has been the true glory of the United States,” in “fulfilling their neutral obligations with the most scrupulous impartiality . . . to maintain sincere neutrality toward belligerent nations,” and “to exclude foreign intrigues and foreign partialities."- James Madison

"Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will be America's heart, her benedictions, and her prayers. But she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She well knows that by enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standards of freedom. . The fundamental maxims of
her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force. She might become the dictatress of the world. She would no longer be the ruler of her own spirit" -- President John Quincy Adams' Forth of July Oration (1821)

"Peace and abstinence from European interferences are our objects, and so will continue while the present order of things in America remain uninterrupted." -- Thomas Jefferson to Pierre Samuel Dupont de Nemours, 1802

"Not a place upon earth might be so happy as America. Her situation is remote from all the wrangling world, and she has nothing to do but to trade with them." -- Thomas Paine

"Under the benign influence of our republican institutions, and the maintenance of peace with all nations whilst so many of them were engaged in bloody and wasteful wars, the fruits of a just policy were enjoyed in an unrivaled growth of our faculties and resources." -- James Madison, First Inaugural Address (March 4, 1809)

"There never was a good war or a bad peace." -- Benjamin Franklin, (1773)