Where are the rants and objections to Ermey wearing the new Marine camo when not all active duty Marines have it yet? Where are you at STLRN? I'm sure you've fired off a few letters already telling him that he shouldn't be wearing it right?

I still can't understand all the hostility towards none Marines wearing MARPAT - what if say some Army SF guys were to put on MARPAT - would the Marines send some guys to kick their A##?...Probably not. Not sure why camouflage is so sentimental. If the Army adopted Treebark as their distinct Camo pattern I guess they would have the right to be angry at any duck hunters wearing "their" camo. Can't understand the logic..

Not according to some, most notable STLRN. A big arguement was that non-active duty Marines shouldn't be getting it before the active duty Marines already have a set.

I bought a set at the Exchange after is sat on the shelf for over a month. BFD.

According to my Dad (Active Duty Marine for 23 years, did time in both Korea and Viet Nam) there is no such thing as a FORMER Marine.

He says there are three kinds of Marines:
Marines on Active duty, Marines not on active duty and Marines who have PCS'ed to be with God.

Again some of you need to go back to your reading is fundamental classes.  But I guess some of you let your anarchist, no one can tell me what is right and wrong, self superiority complexes get in the way of what is actually said.

I stated non-Marines should not wear Marine Uniforms, if you get a set of digitals that is not a Marine uniform Marines wouldn't care, they do make them they had them at the CLNC exchange for Corpsmen and Chaplains, etc.  I additionally stated that allot of the collectors and a few Marines should be ashamed of themselves because creating and fulfilling a market (in the case of the MCCS selling them there is actually an order against that also) when allot of people who will probably need them because when they actually will be in a war in short period cannot get them.

At first allot of you said, its not illegal so I will do what I want.  Than I posting the laws stating  the wearing uniforms by non service was illegal except under certain circumstances.  But the response of many was that not what the law meant, so I will do what I want. So it comes down to allot of people with a strong anarchist bent, Oh well cannot teach a pig to sing, no matter how much you try.


GySgt Emery USMC (Ret) was given the cammies for recruiting purposes.

No, it's just focusing on one argument on why people other than active duty Marines shouldn't have them. I don't need to hear that R. Lee Ermey is a Marine because I already know that. Who wants a big huge thread arguing that he can wear them because he is a Marine? Everybody already knows that he's a Marine.

I want to hear opinions on why it's ok for him to wear them even though he isn't active duty, when it isn't ok for Joe Public to wear them for the same reason.

I only mention STLRN because he is the only persons name I can remember. It's nothing personal, other than our disagreement on this subject I think he's a pretty good guy.

As I stated he was given them from recruiting purposes.  A MajGen runs that program, I am but a Capt, so his orders have more impact than mine.  

I just feel allot of gun owners are strong willed and don't like to be told what to do.  Because even when I cited the law about, most said they would still do it anyway.

Then why do they sell t-shirts, coffee cups, hats and other memorabelia with the EGA on them at military events (air shows etc...) They sell that stuff at BX's, shops and stores that surround bases and online and through catalogs.
Hell, anyone ever been to a surplus store ???
I remember recruiters giving away free t-shirts and other promotional stuff with the EGA to prospective recruits and kids.
What about toys ?? I see GI Joe wearing the EGA and I'm damn sure he never "really" served as a Marine.
Oh, and BTW......we paid for the stuff anyway, remember.

I was wondering about that. So, they actually make these [i]without[/i] the imbedded USMC device for Navy personnel attached to USMC units? Are they otherwise identical? After all, it wouldn't be too smart to have the corpsman stand out in a different uniform in a combat-type environment.

A Major General runs what program? The Mail Call program on the Discovery Channel? Because that is where I saw him wearing them. I'm being serious here...  



I think the disagreement here is what makes up a uniform. Surely not just camo and an EGA. Don't rank, insignia, name tape and other stuff also belong on a uniform? If those aren't present would you consider it a proper uniform? Would you let your Marines wear it with none of the above on it, and if not, why not, since it is a uniform?

Besides, impersonating implies more than just wearing similar clothes. I can dress up like Osama Bin Laden, but that doesn't mean that I'm impersonating him. I see lots of people wearing black/dark blue pants and button up shirts, with no insignia or badges and I never think that they are police officers.

Once again, camo doesn't make the Marine.

Anyway, back on subject. So R. Lee Ermey is now an active duty recruiter and that is why he is wearing MARPAT?

I just saw my first set yesterday at WalMart. Looks pretty good in person.

Now, as far as R. Lee Ermey is concerned, I think he's entitled as a retired Marine. And I would think the Marines supply him with MARPAT free of charge. Him wearing it on national TV is an advertisement for the only place you can get it, the United States Marine Corps.

Actually in field allot of Marines don't wear rank.  Especially officer rank, we still wear shinny grade ensigna.  But the law clearly states "uniform or distinctive parts of uniform."  I still feel we sold out in 91 when we said we would start wearing name tapes, etc

Ermey is going to attract more young men and women into the Corps this year then the top 100 Recruiters will.  He is still serving his country in an Honorable fashion, and as such was ISSUED several sets of MARPAT.  I would not be surprised to learn that the CMC, General Jones, signed the order authorizing the issue.

As for a non Marine wearing my uniform.....Well, that is absolutley WRONG!  CADPAT is available, and every bit as effective as MARPAT.  I would not be caught dead wearing a green/tan/maroon/black beret, a SEAL trident, or gold jump wings and a scuba skull either.  It is a matter of respect, for those who earned the right to wear them, and for myself, and I require the same from others.

MARPAT is every bit as distinctive as a Marines Dress Blues.  Would you wear a set of Dress Blues if you did not EARN the title Marine?

Great thread,  can we work Unions in here somehow?  [;)]

Aviator

It's not the clothes, symbols or patches that make a Marine, a Marine.

Here is a great Email written by a former Marine that is being forwarded around it helps explain why Marines feel the way we do about our uniform


The Esprit De Corps

Ask a Marine what's so special about the Marines and the answer would be "esprit de corps", an unhelpful French phrase that means exactly what it looks like the spirit of the Corps. But what is that spirit, and where does it come from?

The Marine Corps is the only branch of the U. S. armed forces that recruits people specifically to fight. The Army emphasizes personal development (an army of one), the Navy promises fun (let the journey begin), and the Air Force offers security (it's a great way of life). Missing from all of these advertisements is the hard fact that it is a soldier's lot to suffer and perhaps to die for his people, and to take lives at the risk of his own.

Even the thematic music of the services reflects this evasion. The Army's Caisson Song describes a pleasant country outing over hill and dale, lacking only a picnic basket. Anchors Aweigh, the Navy's celebration of the joys of sailing, could have been penned by Jimmy Buffet. The Air Force song is a lyric poem of blue skies and engine thrust. All is joyful and invigorating, and safe. There are no landmines in the dales nor snipers behind the hills, no submarines or cruise missiles threaten the ocean jaunt, no bandits are lurking in the wild blue yonder. The Marines' Hymn, by contrast, is all combat. We fight our country's battles, first to fight for right and freedom, we have fought in every clime and place where we could take a gun, in many a strife we've fought for life.

The choice is made clear. You may join the Army to go to adventure training, or join the Navy to go to Bangkok, or join the Air Force to go to computer school. You join the Marines to go to war.

But the mere act of signing the enlistment contract confers no status in the Corps. The Army recruit is told from his first minute in uniform that "you're in the Army now, soldier". Navy and Air Force enlistees are sailors or airmen as soon as they get off the bus at the training center.  The new arrival at Marine Corps boot camp is called recruit, or private, or worse (much worse), but not Marine. Not yet; maybe not ever. He or she must earn the right to claim the title, and failure returns you to civilian life without hesitation or ceremony.

My recruit platoon, Platoon 2210 at San Diego, California, trained from October through December of 1968. In Vietnam the Marines were taking two hundred casualties a week, and the major rainy season operation, Meade River, had not even begun. Yet our drill instructors had no qualms about winnowing out almost a quarter of their 112 recruits, graduating eighty-one. Note that this was post- enlistment attrition; every one of those who were dropped had been passed by the recruiters as fit for service. But they failed the test of boot camp, not necessarily for physical reasons (at least two were outstanding high-school athletes for whom the calisthenics and running were child's play). The cause of their failure was not in the biceps nor the legs, but in the spirit. They had lacked the will to endure the mental and emotional strain, so they would not be Marines. Heavy commitments and high casualties notwithstanding, the Corps reserves the right to pick and choose.

But the war had touched boot camp in one way. The normal twelve- week course of training was shortened to eight weeks. Deprived of a third of their training time, our drill instructors hurried over, or dropped completely, those classes without direct relevance to Vietnam. Chemical warfare training was abandoned. Swimming classes shrank to a single familiarization session. Even hand-to- hand combat was skimped. Three things only remained inviolate: close order drill, the ultimate discipline builder; marksmanship training, the heart of combat effectiveness; and classes on the history, customs and traditions of the Corps.

History classes in boot camp? Stop a soldier on the street and ask him to name a battle of World War One. Pick a sailor at random to describe the epic fight of the Bon Homme Richard. Everyone has heard of McGuire Air Force Base, so ask any airman who Major Thomas B. McGuire was, and why he is so commemorated. I am not carping, and there is no sneer in this criticism. All of the services have glorious traditions, but no one teaches the young soldier, sailor or airman what his uniform means and why he should be proud to wear it.

But ask a Marine about World War One, and you will hear of the wheat field at Belleau Wood and the courage of the Fourth Marine Brigade. Faced with an enemy of superior numbers entrenched in tangled forest undergrowth, the Marines received an order to attack that even the charitable cannot call ill-advised. It was insane. Artillery support was absent and air support hadn't been invented yet, so the Brigade charged German machine guns with only bayonets, grenades and indomitable fighting spirit. A bandy-legged little barrel of a gunnery sergeant, Daniel J. Daly, rallied his company with a shout. "Come on, you sons a bitches! Do you want to live forever?" He took out three of those machine guns himself, and they would have given him the Medal of Honor except for a technicality. He already had two of them.  French liaison officers, hardened though they were by four years of trench bound slaughter, were shocked as the Marines charged across the open wheat field under a blazing sun and directly into enemy fire. Their action was so anachronistic on twentieth-century battlefield that they might as well have been swinging cutlasses. But the enemy was only human; they couldn't stand up to this. So the Marines took Belleau Wood. Every Marine knows this story, and dozens more. We are taught them in boot camp as a regular part of the curriculum. Every Marine will always be taught them. You can learn to don a gas mask anytime, even on the plane en route to the war zone, but before you can wear the emblem and claim the title you must know of the Marines who made that emblem and title meaningful. So long as you can march and shoot and revere the legacy of the Corps, you can take your place in the line.

And that line is unified in spirit as in purpose. A soldier wears branch of service insignia on his collar, and metal shoulder pins and cloth sleeve patches to identify his unit. Sailors wear a rating badge that identifies what they do for the Navy. Marines wear only the eagle, globe and anchor, together with personal ribbons and their cherished marksmanship badges. There is nothing on a Marine's uniform to indicate what he or she does, nor (except for the 5th and 6th Regiments who wear a French fourragere for Belleau Wood) what unit the Marine belongs to. You cannot tell by looking at a Marine whether you are seeing a truck driver, a computer programmer, or a machine gunner.

The Corps explains this as a security measure to conceal the identity and location of units, but the Marines penchant for publicity makes that the least likely of explanations. No, the Marine is amorphous, even anonymous (we finally agreed to wear nametags
only in 1992), by conscious design.

Every Marine is a rifleman first and foremost, a Marine first, last and always. You may serve a 4 year enlistment or even a 20 year career without seeing action, but if the word is given you'll charge across that wheat field.

Whether a Marine has been schooled in automated supply, or automotive mechanics, or aviation electronics, is immaterial. Those things are secondary - the Corps does them because it must. The modern battle requires the technical appliances, and since the enemy has them, so do we. But no Marine boasts mastery of them. Our pride is in our marksmanship, our discipline, and our membership in a fraternity of courage and sacrifice.

"For the honor of the fallen, for the glory of the dead", Edgar Guest wrote of Belleau Wood, "the living line of courage kept the faith and moved ahead." They are all gone now, those Marines who made a French farmer's little wheat field into one of the most enduring of Marine Corps legends. Many of them did not survive the day, and eight long decades have claimed the rest. But their action has made them immortal. The Corps remembers them and honors what they did, and so they live forever. Dan Daly's shouted challenge takes on its true meaning - if you hide in the trenches you may survive for now, but someday you will die and no one will care. If you charge the guns you may die in the next two minutes, but you will be one of the immortals. All Marines die, in the red flash of battle or the white cold of the nursing home. In the vigor of youth or the infirmity of age all will eventually die, but the Marine Corps lives on. Every Marine who ever lived is living still, in the Marines who claim the title today. It is that sense of belonging to something that will outlive your own mortality that gives people a light to live by and a flame to mark their passing. Marines call it Esprit De Corps !!!

As far as I know, regulations say that since R. Lee served during a war and recieved an honorable discharge, he is authorized to wear the Marine utility uniform. It's my personal opinion that any Marine (active, reserve, retired) has the right to wear the uniform as long as they do it respectfully. That means for active and reservists, to follow Marine Corps policy.

Edited to add: I am vowing from this point on to never even look at another one of these threads because they go nowhere.

anyone see those recruits on Parris Island on the Discovery Channel?  specially that Middle Eastern looking girl? what a fucking loser.  i didnt finish the show but did she make it? if she did, she alone would put Marines to shame.  just an opinion.  dont you jarheads get on my case about this.

Just my $.02:

BDU's of ANY pattern by themselves are not a uniform.  Neither are dress blues, greens, or whites.

They do not become a uniform until they are properly accessorized with distinctive, separately applied service insignia at the minimum.

As Marpat does have the EGA, some people may consider it to be a uniform in and of itself.

I don't, because by my lights, you have to apply the insignia by pinning, sewing, or even taping it on.

Until the DOD issues new regulations that defines a uniform as the clothing in and of itself, without need for any additional service insignia, I will continue to hold this belief.

My AF BDU's (with attached USAF tape, name tape, and stripes) are a uniform.    My spare set of bare BDU's are not.    At times, I wear either my BDU trousers OR my BDU jacket (on cooler days) when I'm out in public, but never both at once because even though it is not illegal for me to do so (technically I may even be allowed to wear my complete uniform as I did earn it), I have no wish to attract attention or be mistaken for active duty personnel.

Here's a related question:  Suppose that after you had left the service,  you chose to wear your uniform in public for some reasonable reason, and someone else on active duty and with higher rank than you (say an officer and you're enlisted) assumes you're active duty and gives you what he considers to be a lawful order?    Legally, what's the situation here?  Remember, you're not on active duty.  Not even in the reserves.

(That potential situation alone is reason enough to stop wearing complete uniforms once you leave the service.)

CJ

My brother in law is in boot camp right now and he said that The Discovery Channel is there right now doing some filming there. He isn't sure what it is for though.

I've watched quite a few of the episodes you're talking about on the Discovery Channel, but I don't know if she made it or not.

Oh please !  Quit all the damn whining.

This is what pisses me off.

Picture this:  Saudia Arabia, 1991

Our unit arrived in country with ONE pair of Desert Cammies.  ONE pair.  

It took all kind of wrangling to get us Desert Night Parkas and Liners but we finally got them AFTER we were over there for a few weeks.

There was a period when they thought we would not get them at all.

Keep in mind that we are a INFANTRY unit.  We were not MotorT, office pogues or such.  We were slotted to move up to the front soon.

We were brought up to strength by a influx of Active Duty Marines that had been cut from their units. ( Marine platoons at the time were made up of 5 squads, i.e. experimental )  

Well, once the Gulf started up there were not many manuals on 5 squad platoon tactics so they scrapped the whole thing and went back to 4 squads.  

Those 5th squads were sent to fill other units and my Reserve unit benefitted from it.

After being in-country for a few weeks we were still at Jabaul (sp?) in Saudia Arabia.  We were out milling about one morning when this large detail comes marching down the road.

People are yelling for Marines to get out of the way and make room.  Damn !  That unit had Desert Night Parka AND matching trousers !!!!!!!

The next thing I noticed was that there were alot of women in the unit as well.

I asked someone, "Who the hell are they"?!?

He responded, "Thats the Marine Corps Band".

I was floored to say the least.

Believe me I was pissed when I didnt see a damn one of those guys blowing tunes on the front lines leading the charge.  Too bad they were in the rear with the gear.

This pisses me off to this day....

Hell, I had the heels fall off BOTH sets of my combat boots.  My originals from boot camp.  It took me almost a month to get a pair of Desert boots.

Now those are legitimate gripes...  

If someone wants to pay hard cash for cammies and wear them I have no problem with it.  Even if they are not a Marine.

Imitation is the best form of flattery.

Before I was a Marine I wore my cammies when I was a kid.  I made them look exactly like real Marines wore.  I wanted to do them proud and not half-ass do it.

But when some non-combat Marines are issued gear that front line units cannot even get then there IS a fuckin' problem.

But no one complained about that.... except me

I did not see the program of which you speak, so I am unable to comment about it's contents.  The recruit you speak of may not have carried herself with grace at all times, but her Drill Instructors are in a much better position to judge her performance than anyone here.

One thing that I know for sure though.  She had a big enough set off balls to at least try to be a Marine.  You do not.  Just an opinion.  Don't get your squid ass bent out of shape over it.

One theory: If your REMFS are so bought into the the "we are all warriors" mentality, they can, in good conscience, hog stuff that may otherwise go to the front.

Your REAL problem is deemed all the more interesting in light if this excerpt from an earlier post:



It seems clear, from the MARPAT issue to the one you have brought up - that your whole logistical system seems to have flawed distribution efforts. But the logistics professionals in the Marine Corps would seem to take pride in not having mastered such concepts. That is sad.

I face the same mentality daily with S-4s of Armor and Infantry units. They almost seem to brag when they talk about how clueless they are on logistics. Lucky for them they have some hardcore loggies covering their back and pulling their weight for them in their respective support battalions.

Amateurs talk tactics. Professionals talk logistics. Sometimes I get the impression that the Marine Corps as an institution is still struggling to come to grips with this.

If all the active Marines who need the new BDU's do not have them, it is only because the military supply system is ass-backwards.

There are a lot of things wrong with the supply system.  Logistics is a very complicated business.  I'm sure there are many Marines who have 4 sets of MARPAT, and there are many who have none.  Some Marines made arrangements to afford the uniform, and others have not and will wait until the deadline before they aquire them.  The instance where USMC_LB saw the Presidents Own with uniform items his line unit did not have is an episode that should NOT have occured.  But then again, I'm willing to bet the Presidents Own has quite a few strings within their grasp.  It's not right, but unfortunately that is the way it goes.  

Oh, my. Never fails.

It is nothing more then a discussion.  You may choose to participate or not.

DPeacher
Your actually required to have 5 sets now, 3 woodland and 2 desert.

So far there have been about 350,000 sets of both made of the approx 4 million required.  

My MARPAT cammies will be comming into Supply next month.  I'm in the reserves but I think I may need them over other active duty marines.  My unit has already started the anthrax vaccinations...  I want to show the Iraqies(sp?) our new cammies.. =)  

Smalls
LCpl of Marines

I got news for you devil dog, allot of us are getting allot of shots these days.

Now isn't that the truth...  I think something in these shots are going to do me in before I get there! =)

Regarding the MARPAT, I will get 1 trouser, 1 blouse, one cover and one set of boots.  So we just get one set now and have no idea when we might get others.

Smalls

LCpl of Marines

I don't intend to reiterate what has already been said - but the main issue I see is lack of logistical support. I managed to get whatever I need through the Army supply system - but you have to know your MOS.

I have seen a lot of incompetence with people in supply/logistics - sometimes the problem is bigger then the little guy - but not always. My first supply sergeant on active duty used to fall asleep in broad daylght drooling on his keyboard. He was worthless and perhaps part of the reason I gave up on the Army. 9 times out of 10 a supply support system is F##KED because the people running it are uneducated morons or simply lazy. This varies on a case by case basis. I feel that should I want to buy MARPAT I should be able buy it with no restrictions. Troops should have priority BUT Military Clothing Sales is not the same as whoever in the USMC is calling the shots.

For me a uniform is something you work in. Granted, I had a pressed uniform and spit shined boots every day in garrison - but just the same my uniform managed to get jacked up working with weapons, vehicles, etc. I can understand taking pride in a uniform - but not to the point that camouflage becomes a god like object - USMC symbol on it or not.  

As to someone actually impersonating a Marine or whomever - I view that differently. Anyone dressing in MARPAT to parade around and brag lies like a SEAL wanna-be for instance, I have nothing but contempt for - they deserve to get their a## kicked. But buying or wearing MARPAT because its an efficient camo. pattern is not a crime IMHO.

[size=3]For those holy-er than thou, shit for brains attitude about not earning anyting, no US fighting force would be worth shit if it wasn't for the USA taxpayer. This includes the Marines dipshit. I'd say that the USA taxpayer has continously earned the right since the inception of war bonds.[/size=3]

If I follow your logic, then when are you going to take a ride on the space shuttle and spend your two week vacation on the international space station?  Last time I checked, the last war bond drive was just after the battle for Iwo Jima and there has not been any since...I also remember income tax being withheld from every check I received during that 16 year period.

Not the same. The berets signify special service or special training, or at least they did before the army started giving them out as door prizes, as do the other insignia. Everything else is just a plain old uniform.



Of course not, you would stick out like sore thumb playing paintball, hunting, or targeting JBT's (just kidding). Besides, they look sharp for D+C but in everyday public I think they look a little silly as does anyone wearing any camo for no good reason for that matter. Besides everyone knows nothing looks sharper than Navy dress whites.[;)]

SorryOciffer

I am not in the Marine Corps.  I ran a Marine Corps 5K run.  They gave me a t-shirt with the EGA on it.  In fact, they gave everyone who ran it a t-shirt with the EGA on it.  I wear it.  Problems?  

No offense, but R.Lee Ermey is an idiot... I know he's playing a "role," but come'on...

and if I was a Marine (I'm not, I graduated high school) I would be embarrassed that this guy was on TV representing the USMC.

Crawl back in your fucking hole.

i dont c why people care either way.

You may not wear MARPAT unless you have [b]earned[/b] it. Goddamn wannabee taxpayers.


[:D]

Major Surplus sells "Mil-Spec Digital Camo" ..I don't know if it has the Marine Corp symbol in the pattern...

As far as wearing the uniform when not active duty as someone asked, I have to ask Why? I would assume if you're wearing your old uniform out in public and you come in contact with an active officer and he/she gives you an order, you might have some explaining to do or just follow the order and hope you never see that officer again...But, I know many Marines wear their dress blues to the annual ball that are retired. Many soldiers wear their uniforms in parades on Veterans Day too that are not active duty.

I have never served. (It's the only thing in my life I regret not doing) but I wasn't able to. I do own several patterns of cammies. I WILL NOT own a set of digital until they take out the symbol just because I didn't earn it. Period! My daughter was in the USMC JROTC in High School and I put a sticker on my back window of my truck. I'm the 1st person to tell someone I am NOT a marine if asked...

I feel the symbols are EARNED regardless of the branch you served in..I would NEVER disrespect those who have earned the honor of wearing them.

Thank you for your service to our country!

I agree with Ponyboy. Crawl back in your fucking hole. R.Lee is one of the FUNNIEST comedians/character actors out(Most people don't see a lot of the humor...a lot of it is so damned subtle) there and he was one hell of a marine to boot.

I have LEO friends who have given me sweatshirts and Ts with their dept names and logos, I guess I shouldn't wear them as I did not "earn" it and I could be misconstrued as an impersonator! Camo is Camo. Buy what you want.

Besides we should all buy it so when Marshal law is declared in this country we will blend in better. [heavy]

SorryOciffer

The Corpsmen hit the beaches with the Marines, they deserve the same considerations.  One of the 6 soldiers in the famous Iwo Jima flag raising photo was a Corpsman, and a highly decorated one at that.  Check out "Flags of Our Fathers" for the story.

Hmmm, I MAY be wrong... isn't he a retired USMC drill instructor et/al ?

I'll have to look into this... further-er-er  [:D]

This is from R Lee Ermey's web sit WWW.eleeermey.com

HONORARY STRIPES - Marine Sgt. Maj. Bruce Mackamul, left, pins honorary Gunnery Sgt. stripes on actor R. Lee Ermey, of Palmdale, along with Maj. Gen. Jan C. Huly on Friday at Marine Corps Recruit Depot in San Diego. Ermey, a 12-year Marine, was a staff sergeant when he was forced to retire from the Marine Corps after being wounded in Vietnam. Ermey is best known for his role of a drill instructor in "Full Metal Jacket.