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Posted: 1/26/2014 2:44:57 PM EDT
[#1]
yeah--the aral sea is one of the biggest cautionary tales in water resources. it's a perfect example of engineering and economics-driven decision making regarding the environment.
amusingly, it was also a perfect example of soviet ideological hypocrisy.
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Posted: 1/26/2014 2:48:37 PM EDT
[#2]
No Sea for YOU!.
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Posted: 1/26/2014 2:59:17 PM EDT
[#3]
That's interesting since one reason the Caspian Sea sturgeon did so well was because the Soviets had an agreement with Iran to strictly manage the fishing. |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:00:52 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's interesting since one reason the Caspian Sea sturgeon did so well was because the Soviets had an agreement with Iran to strictly manage the fishing. i was unaware of that--thanks for posting. off to google...
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:03:39 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
yeah--the aral sea is one of the biggest cautionary tales in water resources. it's a perfect example of engineering and economics-driven decision making regarding the environment. amusingly, it was also a perfect example of soviet ideological hypocrisy. The Soviets consistently raped areas in the name of development that would feed the center and provide them local political control. |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:04:44 PM EDT
[#6]
But the UN said we can only save the environment if we live under communism.
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:05:04 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Soviets consistently raped areas in the name of development that would feed the center and provide them local political control. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: yeah--the aral sea is one of the biggest cautionary tales in water resources. it's a perfect example of engineering and economics-driven decision making regarding the environment. amusingly, it was also a perfect example of soviet ideological hypocrisy. The Soviets consistently raped areas in the name of development that would feed the center and provide them local political control. yep--despite completely basing their rhetoric on a marxist analysis that included a scathing critique of this very behavior.
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:06:08 PM EDT
[#8]
Wow.. That global warming is out of control,
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:06:34 PM EDT
[#9]
Overpopulation strikes again.
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:09:22 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Overpopulation strikes again. Hardly |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:09:59 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But the UN said we can only save the environment if we live under communism. Not Soviet Communism, EuroAmerican Communism. It'd be different this time. |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:11:56 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But the UN said we can only save the environment if we live under communism. negative. this is an example of why arfcom's usage of 'communism' as an umbrella term for any kind of regulation causes so many problems. the core of UN environmental thought is based on hardin's "mutual coercion, mutually agreed-upon" from the tragedy of the commons essay. this embraces both regulatory and market approaches. you may not like the idea, but cap-and-trade is a purely capitalist intervention. remember, even adam smith maintained the view that the invisible hand does not inevitably result in optimal outcomes. he viewed market behavior and morality as two poles that needed to be balanced. hardin simply gave a mathematical proof for the failure of the invisible hand in one particular set of circumstances.
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:12:11 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hardly Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Overpopulation strikes again. Hardly not even remotely.
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:14:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i was unaware of that--thanks for posting. off to google... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That's interesting since one reason the Caspian Sea sturgeon did so well was because the Soviets had an agreement with Iran to strictly manage the fishing. i was unaware of that--thanks for posting. off to google... I first read about it here 
I love everything fish-related: looking at them, raising them, eating them, reading about them, etc. 
I keep an aquaponics system during the summer and have a thread in the Outdoors sub-forum. I've thought about trying to raise White Sturgeon but they are slow-growing and have some specific space and diet requirements. I feel badly when sturgeon habitat is lost such as in the Aral Sea. I've instead focused mainly on catfish, including Brown Bullhead catfish and, hopefully this spring, Channel catfish. These are some small Channel catfish that I'll put outside in the spring: 
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:15:29 PM EDT
[#15]
In Soviet Union, Vodka is for Drinking and Water is for Fighting over.
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:17:01 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Soviets consistently raped areas in the name of development that would feed the center and provide them local political control. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
yeah--the aral sea is one of the biggest cautionary tales in water resources. it's a perfect example of engineering and economics-driven decision making regarding the environment. amusingly, it was also a perfect example of soviet ideological hypocrisy. The Soviets consistently raped areas in the name of development that would feed the center and provide them local political control. They were more careful with the sturgeon since the caviar produced was a great source of Western dollars. |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:18:53 PM EDT
[#17]
When Soviet officials decided to divert its rivers, turning Kazakhstan’s western deserts into fragile cotton farms, the Aral Sea was the world’s fourth-largest lake, covering an area the size of Ireland. Now it’s less than a tenth of that size. Left behind are 15,000 square miles of salty, toxin-laden lake bed. Sandstorms toss 150,000 tons of it into the region’s air every year, and are linked to intensified regional climate extremes and increased rates of cancer and lung disease. Go ahead......change Mother Nature! |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:23:00 PM EDT
[#18]
A puddle inn my yard dried up once too. It was so sad.
Where did that water go? Gone forever? |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:31:08 PM EDT
[#19]
so did the sea naturally exist and they just diverted the rivers and the shit evaporated?
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:38:28 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: so did the sea naturally exist and they just diverted the rivers and the shit evaporated? pretty much--syr darya and amu darya were extensively exploited for cotton production and (IIRC) hydropower. the aral sea used to be the largest body of brackish water in the world.
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:39:05 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so did the sea naturally exist and they just diverted the rivers and the shit evaporated? The government diverted the feeder rivers for irrigation purposes. |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:40:50 PM EDT
[#22]
So they had their own Owens Lake fiasco.
Maybe they got the idea from the fucked up Angelenos. |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:41:30 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so did the sea naturally exist and they just diverted the rivers and the shit evaporated? The lake was fed from rivers that flowed from the Mountains of Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan. The southern river, the Amu Darya, was most significantly affected by large scale irrigation projects, to the point that it now no longer reaches the lake, it just dries up in the desert. The primarily local subsistence fishing industry of the Aral "sea" was of little importance to the Soviets, the real power in influence has always been the cities of eastern Uzbekistan, and those irrigation projects made the eastern part of the country a virtual breadbasket and also a major source of cotton (the latter projects started well before the Soviets, to address supplies that dried up from the American south due to blockades put in part during the late unpleasantness). |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:41:47 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A puddle inn my yard dried up once too. It was so sad. Where did that water go? Gone forever? Yup. Totally the same thing. |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:42:28 PM EDT
[#25]
Same thing is happening to the Colorado river and lake meade.
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:48:24 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
pretty much--syr darya and amu darya were extensively exploited for cotton production and (IIRC) hydropower. the aral sea used to be the largest body of brackish water in the world. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
so did the sea naturally exist and they just diverted the rivers and the shit evaporated? pretty much--syr darya and amu darya were extensively exploited for cotton production and (IIRC) hydropower. the aral sea used to be the largest body of brackish water in the world. The Soviets had some hydropower projects in Tajikistan, but nothing on the scale of what is in the works now. The real problem is the unsustainable irrigation, but you'll never get the Uzbeks to accept that. Interestingly, Kazakhstan has made great strides in restoring the northern lake, now dammed off from the main body. They are quite proud of this, and coffee table books with glossy photos and descriptions in english are in damned near every hotel room, like how the Gideons place bibles. |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:50:33 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A puddle inn my yard dried up once too. It was so sad. Where did that water go? Gone forever? it went into a non-useful segment of the water cycle. fortunately for all of us, the hydrogeology of your yard probably did not support a large-scale aquatic ecosystem, and the drying did not create dust storms that are visible from space.
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:51:00 PM EDT
[#28]
Salton Sea anyone?
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:52:04 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Soviets had some hydropower projects in Tajikistan, but nothing on the scale of what is in the works now. The real problem is the unsustainable irrigation, but you'll never get the Uzbeks to accept that. Interestingly, Kazakhstan has made great strides in restoring the northern lake, now dammed off from the main body. They are quite proud of this, and coffee table books with glossy photos and descriptions in english are in damned near every hotel room, like how the Gideons place bibles. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: ... The Soviets had some hydropower projects in Tajikistan, but nothing on the scale of what is in the works now. The real problem is the unsustainable irrigation, but you'll never get the Uzbeks to accept that. Interestingly, Kazakhstan has made great strides in restoring the northern lake, now dammed off from the main body. They are quite proud of this, and coffee table books with glossy photos and descriptions in english are in damned near every hotel room, like how the Gideons place bibles. was hoping for your input--you know a ton more about the region than i do. have read that water levels are rebounding, but i was unaware that the lake had been sectioned.
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:52:44 PM EDT
[#30]
Anyone who thinks resource depletion of the sort cannot happen in a free market needs to read up on the Canning industry in Monterey. Externalities and the recognition of them is not a Communist plot.
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:54:33 PM EDT
[#31]
Is this where the USSR had the island where they did all the bio/chem weapon research?
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:56:54 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone who thinks resource depletion of the sort cannot happen in a free market needs to read up on the Canning industry in Monterey. Externalities and the recognition of them is not a Communist plot. i know you know this, but that kind of depletion is almost inevitable in a free market. the only way to prevent it is through regulation of the market, a la hunting/fishing licenses and seasons, harvest limits, and so on. IOW, what most arfcommers refer to as "communism".
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:58:02 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is this where the USSR had the island where they did all the bio/chem weapon research? yes. the two are not related though, except insofar as the labs were on an island in the middle of the lake, which was the primary security mechanism. due to reduced water levels, you can now walk to the labs.
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Posted: 1/26/2014 3:59:47 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
was hoping for your input--you know a ton more about the region than i do. have read that water levels are rebounding, but i was unaware that the lake had been sectioned. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
... The Soviets had some hydropower projects in Tajikistan, but nothing on the scale of what is in the works now. The real problem is the unsustainable irrigation, but you'll never get the Uzbeks to accept that. Interestingly, Kazakhstan has made great strides in restoring the northern lake, now dammed off from the main body. They are quite proud of this, and coffee table books with glossy photos and descriptions in english are in damned near every hotel room, like how the Gideons place bibles. was hoping for your input--you know a ton more about the region than i do. have read that water levels are rebounding, but i was unaware that the lake had been sectioned. I'm probably one of the few arfcommers who has farted about in both countries. Never made it out to the Aral Sea[bed] though. It is not an easy trip, and not one to be taken lightly. A vehicle breakdown or running out of gas a very real possibility, as a gas station that had gas last week, is not guaranteed to have it the next, so stock up) has happened to people and Satellite phones are your only means of communication. Anyway, it's not an adventure I was willing to set out with while my wife is in tow (the Soviet trains to Bukhara was more than enough adventure for her). I did meet some European adventurer hippie types that had driven all the way there. Interesting bunch of guys and gals and they had a Mad Max vehicle that would have put many of the SHTF vehicles here to shame. |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 4:00:12 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Go ahead......change Mother Nature! Quote HistoryQuoted:
When Soviet officials decided to divert its rivers, turning Kazakhstan’s western deserts into fragile cotton farms, the Aral Sea was the world’s fourth-largest lake, covering an area the size of Ireland. Now it’s less than a tenth of that size. Left behind are 15,000 square miles of salty, toxin-laden lake bed. Sandstorms toss 150,000 tons of it into the region’s air every year, and are linked to intensified regional climate extremes and increased rates of cancer and lung disease. Go ahead......change Mother Nature! Kind of reminds me of the Salton Sea. |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 4:00:28 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is this where the USSR had the island where they did all the bio/chem weapon research? Yes. That has been a massive cleanup effort. It's no longer an island, though. |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 4:01:09 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same thing is happening to the Colorado river and lake meade. Lake Meade isn't a natural lake. |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 4:03:19 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anyone who thinks resource depletion of the sort cannot happen in a free market needs to read up on the Canning industry in Monterey. Externalities and the recognition of them is not a Communist plot. Equivocation about environmental damage between collectivism and capitalism is silly, especially since the media would have us believe that the free market is the most ecologically disastrous force on the planet. Part of the reason the ridiculous double-standard is allowed to persist is that what democracies consider "environmental catastrophes" (Prince William Sound oil spill, 3 Mile Island) are barely considered an "incident" in Soviet states. If anything, there's more concern about damaged hardware. "Oh yes, komrade. Is several submarine reactors rotting off coast of Novaya Zemlya, but do not have worries. Are all underwater where radiation cannot harm!" 
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Posted: 1/26/2014 4:03:42 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: i know you know this, but that kind of depletion is almost inevitable in a free market. the only way to prevent it is through regulation of the market, a la hunting/fishing licenses and seasons, harvest limits, and so on. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Anyone who thinks resource depletion of the sort cannot happen in a free market needs to read up on the Canning industry in Monterey. Externalities and the recognition of them is not a Communist plot. i know you know this, but that kind of depletion is almost inevitable in a free market. the only way to prevent it is through regulation of the market, a la hunting/fishing licenses and seasons, harvest limits, and so on. IOW, what most arfcommers refer to as "communism". If one promotes conservationism here, one gets reply's of "treehugger" or "it just a rock." etc etc. There is nothing wrong with using the resources available to us. I just say we should use them smartly. |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 4:05:26 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Equivocation about environmental damage between collectivism and capitalism is silly, especially since the media would have us believe that the free market is the most ecologically disastrous force on the planet. Part of the reason the ridiculous double-standard is allowed to persist is that what democracies consider "environmental catastrophes" (Prince William Sound oil spill, 3 Mile Island) are barely considered an "incident" in Soviet states. If anything, there's more concern about damaged hardware. "Oh yes, komrade. Is several submarine reactors rotting off coast of Novaya Zemlya, but do not have worries. Are all underwater where radiation cannot harm!" Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Anyone who thinks resource depletion of the sort cannot happen in a free market needs to read up on the Canning industry in Monterey. Externalities and the recognition of them is not a Communist plot. Equivocation about environmental damage between collectivism and capitalism is silly, especially since the media would have us believe that the free market is the most ecologically disastrous force on the planet. Part of the reason the ridiculous double-standard is allowed to persist is that what democracies consider "environmental catastrophes" (Prince William Sound oil spill, 3 Mile Island) are barely considered an "incident" in Soviet states. If anything, there's more concern about damaged hardware. "Oh yes, komrade. Is several submarine reactors rotting off coast of Novaya Zemlya, but do not have worries. Are all underwater where radiation cannot harm!" There are lakes of oil spilled in Russia that are probably larger than what is left of the Aral Sea. That country is an environmental disaster. I've run into a few hardcore Russian environmentalist types that are constantly trying to "raise awareness" of the problems, but nobody really gives a shit. |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 4:08:06 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Anyone who thinks resource depletion of the sort cannot happen in a free market needs to read up on the Canning industry in Monterey. Externalities and the recognition of them is not a Communist plot. i know you know this, but that kind of depletion is almost inevitable in a free market. the only way to prevent it is through regulation of the market, a la hunting/fishing licenses and seasons, harvest limits, and so on. IOW, what most arfcommers refer to as "communism". If one promotes conservationism here, one gets reply's of "treehugger" or "it just a rock." etc etc. There is nothing wrong with using the resources available to us. I just say we should use them smartly. i agree. arfcom's reasoning WRT the environment is virtually identical to obama's approach to the deficit--kick the can down the road. fuck the future. those assholes--our kids--will just have to deal with it. but for god's sake, don't ask us to change our behavior! |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 4:10:26 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The government diverted the feeder rivers for irrigation purposes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
so did the sea naturally exist and they just diverted the rivers and the shit evaporated? The government diverted the feeder rivers for irrigation purposes. They chose the WORST possible crop (cotton) for the irrigation as well... |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 4:12:14 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: especially since the media would have us believe that the free market is the most ecologically disastrous force on the planet. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: ... especially since the media would have us believe that the free market is the most ecologically disastrous force on the planet. this is a real issue, and surprise, surprise...is due to media ignorance. the real problem with respect to environmental degradation is not communism or capitalism, but modernity. that is, the idea that we can and should completely dominate nature, that science is the only meaningful language with respect to nature, and that economics is an adequate substitute for ethics. it is worth noting that the stated position of both the US and the USSR during the high modern era was: "any drop of river water that escapes to the sea is wasted."
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Posted: 1/26/2014 4:26:07 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i know you know this, but that kind of depletion is almost inevitable in a free market. the only way to prevent it is through regulation of the market, a la hunting/fishing licenses and seasons, harvest limits, and so on. IOW, what most arfcommers refer to as "communism". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Anyone who thinks resource depletion of the sort cannot happen in a free market needs to read up on the Canning industry in Monterey. Externalities and the recognition of them is not a Communist plot. i know you know this, but that kind of depletion is almost inevitable in a free market. the only way to prevent it is through regulation of the market, a la hunting/fishing licenses and seasons, harvest limits, and so on. IOW, what most arfcommers refer to as "communism". I think that the small minority mouth breathers of hunters/fisherman definitely do that. But the rest recognize that the excise taxes on fishing gear, guns, ammo, etc as well as license fees all go to habitat restoration, re-introduction programs, law enforcement, etc. I grew up on the Lake St. Francis portion of the St. Lawrence River in Canada and have witnessed the complete destruction of the freshwater fishery mainly through overfishing. The government did nothing to stop it. Even the fishing fees started in 1988 go into the general fund. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 4:45:56 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Salton Sea anyone? Um, the Salton Sea exists because man made irrigation canals failed after heavy snow and rainfalls in the early 1900s. I |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 4:51:38 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not Soviet Communism, EuroAmerican Communism. It'd be different this time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
But the UN said we can only save the environment if we live under communism. Not Soviet Communism, EuroAmerican Communism. It'd be different this time. Yep, Soviets are amateurs. We be da masters at fucking things up in our quest for the socialist utopia. |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 5:02:10 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Um, the Salton Sea exists because man made irrigation canals failed after heavy snow and rainfalls in the early 1900s. I Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Salton Sea anyone? Um, the Salton Sea exists because man made irrigation canals failed after heavy snow and rainfalls in the early 1900s. I The drying is what reminded me of the Salton not the creation. |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 5:10:25 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Um, the Salton Sea exists because man made irrigation canals failed after heavy snow and rainfalls in the early 1900s. I Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Salton Sea anyone? Um, the Salton Sea exists because man made irrigation canals failed after heavy snow and rainfalls in the early 1900s. I Yep. Not a natural lake. |
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Posted: 1/26/2014 5:14:53 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. Not a natural lake. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Salton Sea anyone? Um, the Salton Sea exists because man made irrigation canals failed after heavy snow and rainfalls in the early 1900s. I Yep. Not a natural lake.  that flooding ran off into a dry lake bed. IOW, there has been a periodic lake there for a really, really long time.
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Posted: 1/26/2014 5:16:35 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Overpopulation strikes again. |
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