Man, Im just on a [s]T[/s]ROLL today!

Real airport security would include all the screeners being responsible for the outcome of any Terrorism involved on a flight in which they screened the passengers.

Look at it this way. If you let an armed BadGuy into a secured area, you should get the same punishment as he would receive.

This just might make these guys REALLY work for their money =)

Real airport security is more substance than what we have here in the US.  Here we get NG guys walking around with probably empty weapons, and a few places with bomb sniffers.  I flew quite a bit last summer to CA and then to IL for the BRC.  Security here at the Norfolk, VA airport was suprisingly good, with all the new fangled gadgets and federal security guys (all of whom here were quite a bit higher quality than the previous "security").  I found the airport security in DFW, SJO, SLC, to be pretty shabby and more for show than anything else.

To give you an example of real airport security, when I returned from the ROK on mid-tour leave in 1990:

No cars allowed at the curbside.

You had to pass through a metal detector and x-ray baggage just to get in the airport.

Your checked bag was x-rayed and every couple were opened and searched by hand at check-in.

You passed through another metal detector and x-ray for your carry-on to go to the gate area, which was located on a separate floor, so there was no way anyone was bypassing the check point.

At the top of the stairs your bag was x-rayed again and you were physically searched by pat-down.  You had to open anything that could be opened and turn on any electrical device, etc. Carry-on bags were opened and visually searched at random (alot of them).

At the gate as you boarded the plane, you passed through another metal detector and x-ray.

This was just normal security at Kimpo airport BEFORE 9/11.  All of these people doing the checking were private security (i.e. airport employees) that knew what the hell they were doing.  There were KNP (Korean National Police) in various visible places, but not in an overpowering, intimidating way.  It seemed to take less time than it does to get through a US airport today.  There was no rudeness, nor any attitudes on anyones' part.  You just went form station to station and you were done quickly.  I was impressed to say the least.

The biggest problem is in the way the US does it.  The airlines foot the bill for security, so you get the absolute minimum that will keep them from getting sued.  The FAA isn't exactly "hardline" when it coems to security, or holding airports/airlines responsible, so you get eyewash.  Sure everyone after 9/11 yelled for more security, more Air Marshals, more this, more that, and federal status of security.  That opened the gates for more tax dollars to flow in, but you'll notice that all that talk was for show.  

Now Congress is being told that airports can't comply with the new security requirements, so they should be relaxed.  Now Congress is being told that the airport security people can't be only US citizens because it costs too much and they can't get enough.  Now Congress is being told that the requirement for the security people to be HS grads is too strict and should be relaxed.  Airlines are complaining that they can't afford the cost of new security. The FAA is backing them up because that agency is almost as bad as an airline lobby.

This country isn't anywhere NEAR close to serious about having security from attack.  It's the normal state of affairs in America that we just go to sleep when nothing happens.

Ross

"When not enough people qualify, Lower Your Standards"

This suicidal mindset, started in the 1970's, I believe, will be our downfall as a nation.

Airport security is a joke.  Security need not be overt to be effective;  On the contrary, the most effective security is covert, relatively private, but at the same time decisive.

Best example: A Casino.

They have to have the tightest security, but must keep unobtrusive so as not to scare off the high rollers there to have a good time.

If we had casino-style security in airports, we'd have BETTER security, and less inconvenience.  But airlines aren't hurting enough to do anything real yet.

I don't mean Pit Bosses running around checking out ticket counters, either.  I mean the low-profile, plain-clothes-connected to Eye-in-the-sky types, who are most of the time sight unseen until something happens, at which point a containment team comes in, removes the offender, and lets everything go back smoothly as soon as possible.  The STYLE of security should be "Casino", not the actual function.  The function is different.

All I'm saying is that they could be a LOT more low-profile at it and be MORE effective, for less money.

But nobody wants to pay a consultant to do the hard work to set up such a system so that a solid corps of professionals could run it turnkey.

Until this happens, I ain't flyin'.  I've been in Security too long to be fooled by ANYTHING these idiots are pretending to do beside harrass me.

Panz
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FYI my daughter is a TSA at Honolulu International. They received sub-standard training and only a week of it, then put on the screening lines and are working in a state of confusion. They get shit from the fucking non-US citizen contractors who are fucking worthless and can't even speak english, they get shit from the LEO's who think they're the cats meow and then they get shit from the passengers who say they are being "inconvenienced" by the stricter federal standards. They are doing the best they can with what they've been given. It's not perfect but it's the best we have rite now. So do me a big favor and keep your mouth shut until you walk a mile in their shoes. If you think you can be such a big improvement to the TSA program than I suggest you join up, be the programs "messiah" or keep quiet. people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.......

sorry progun its for show not for real, i'm not flying againg until israel type security is done in airports, and on planes.  so yourdaughter gets shit from all sides - she chose the job and is free to walk if it is unbearable.

Progun-
I can understand your feelings for the plight that your daughter is in, but you've just confirmed everything that we've been saying here.  Yeah, it's not the best system, heck, it's not even adequate as your daughter can probably attest to herself.  That's the point of speaking up.  If everyone did you a favor and stayed quiet, your daughter would continue to have a crap job and not the respect, training, and pay that's due her.  There's alot of folks out there that think that everything is magically solved now.  That somehow the boogieman has gone away because we haven't heard from him in a while.  That very soon everything will return to the way it was before 9/11.  Well, frankly the way it was before 9/11 is the reason it happened in the frist place.

"Mall Ninja" jokes aside, non-LEO security personel are underpaid, undertrained and understaffed.  They have the "Mall Ninja/Rent-a-cop" stereotype that goes along with it because in the past many of the employers have paid crap and gotten what they paid for.  Take an armored car guy.  He gets just over minimum wage and has to work 50hrs a week at least as part of the job.  He hauls around millions of dollars, but they pay him crap, train him crap, and treat him like crap.  Sure companies vary as to quality, but overall this situation needs to change in America.

We need to bring the requirements, standards, training and pay up with these people.  That was what the govt said they were going to do, but it was just eyewash.  It went back to the way it was.  Your daughter would probably thrive in an enviroment that was more challenging, better respected, and better paid, wouldn't she?  I'd bet she wouldn't have to put up with as many idiots as she's working with now.  As long as we accept that the current mediocre system is alright, then mediocre security is what we will get.  Staying quiet about things that are broken isn't the answer.

As for walking in her shoes, been there, done that.  Not Airport, but the exact same job screening at other locations a LONG time ago.  I know all too well the living hell that your daughter is going through.  That's why I'll continue to speak.

Ross

Hey Spanky,

FYI, I used to work airport security.

I have forgot (repressed actually) more than you will ever know about the subject. Actually I have probably forgotten more than you will ever know about anything.

What your daughter says is true. All I'm saying is that they should be held "responsible" for the security like THEIR lives depended on it...WHICH MEANS THEY GET TO CHOSE WHO AND WHAT THEY SEARCH.

I hope your "daughter" would rather search the 18-45 year-old Middle Eastern man than the 90 year-old white grandmother. Or would that be to a no-no in Hawaii?

So mellow out and try to do something positive about that horrendously FASCIST state that you live in, sheesh, its just like visiting a WARM Canada whenever I go there...The people are so nice, but they all walk around like neutered sheep.

Alfalfa,

[b]"I have forgot (repressed actually) more than you will ever know about the subject. Actually I have probably forgotten more than you will ever know about anything."[/b]

Maybe about airport security, but I seriously doubt the remainder of your statement. Proof, my friend is in the pudding. I can prove my credentials, can you? People always seem to talk big sitting in front of a keyboard but in person is different story.

[b]"What your daughter says is true. All I'm saying is that they should be held "responsible" for the security like THEIR lives depended on it...WHICH MEANS THEY GET TO CHOSE WHO AND WHAT THEY SEARCH.[/b]

At least we found one point to agree on. Their hands are tied. Most of the TSA's I've met are very dedicated individuals and are disgusted with what is happening. If the job situation wasn't so terrible, my daughter would quit being a TSA in a minute but she has a family to help support. Easy for everyone to say she should quit, but in reality, at least here in Hawaii, it's not a very wise thing to do. Her Masters Degree in Criminology and Forensics is being wasted but the experience is needed for her to get into either the FBI or CIA which is what she wants to ultimately do.

[b]"So mellow out and try to do something positive about that horrendously FASCIST state that you live in, sheesh, its just like visiting a WARM Canada whenever I go there...The people are so nice, but they all walk around like neutered sheep."[/b]

Lived here for almost 20 years. Yes, we do have our share of sheeple and it's disgusting. We are trying to change the course this state is taking but it has to be done slowly. Our extreme multi-ethnic makeup presents us with an even more daunting task. Feeding them the pie of change will have to be done piece by piece rather than force feeding. If we do the latter we'll surely lose what ground we've gained.

Bottom line is I agree that there is a better way to increase airport security and I would love to see an "Israeli" type of scenario at all U.S. airports but I doubt it will ever happen.

Nice talking to you!

RMCS USN(ret)
Vietnam Vet, RivRon 5 RivDiv3
BSCJ/MSCJ/CCNA/CCNP/CCIE
Distinqushied Master Instructor, State of Hawaii Hunter Education Program

You're a good guy...Sorry I torqued at you. I think we probably agree on much more than this!

DA

Funny that Armored Cars should be mentioned.  One day I will share with you all why I quit the business (note the handle?)

As for the airport situation...get this:

I have a buddy who works for the Federal Courthouse as...you guessed it...an x-ray screener.  He's got about 5 years experience doing this.  He applied for a gig at the airport and was TURNED DOWN, supposedly for failing the "x-ray competency test".

Yet people who barely speak English and yesterday-could-not-spell-sekuritee-and-today-I-are-wun are passing this "test" with flying colors.

And no, before you make disparaging remarks about my buddy, he has gotten very high marks in his federal competency reviews, from both his supervisors and testing personnel.

So...one has to ask...if you're too good, they don't want you?  Why is that, do you think?

Those of you with experience with the x-ray (because I don't), my buddy said that usually there are 2 screens, one in B&W and one in color, and that you can edit out pretty much anything on those screens and just concentrate on things you want to see, for finding certain kinds of objects, he explained.

He said the airport security x-ray test didn't have that.  That the features were there but he wasn't allowed to use them as part of the test.

Can anybody shed some more light on that?  Those of you with experience with x-ray...WTF?

Panz
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