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Posted: 9/7/2002 2:34:21 PM EDT
[#1]
It's a bit of an older movie to be on HBO Cinemax etc. I have seen it on some of the cable channels like USA.
I love that movie, but it was pretty silly. The russians could never have gone enough troops and equipment onto the continent without being discovered to ever have invaded the US. Still I gotta get it on DVD one of these days. That scene where they ended up shooting the kid who had led the russians back to their camp [:o] WOLVERINES! [:D] |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 2:40:31 PM EDT
[#2]
Didnt Sept 11 prove to the world the our homeland Defense was pretty much non-existent?
If they came in via russain transprorts.. might be detected.. but if they charterd enough airliners.. they could of opened the door in mid flight and jumped.. no one would of ever none untill it was to late.. |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 2:45:48 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: If they came in via russain transprorts.. might be detected.. but if they charterd enough airliners.. they could of opened the door in mid flight and jumped.. no one would of ever none untill it was to late.. |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 2:52:44 PM EDT
[#4]
The only impact it made on me is how ridiculously hokey this film was.
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Posted: 9/7/2002 2:58:15 PM EDT
[#5]
In Red Dawn, Nukes were used to take out DC and our other rapid response systems. Also in the initial attack, Russia could not be pinpointed as the source of the attack. The preamble talks about intelligence agency failures, aka 9/11.
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Posted: 9/7/2002 3:05:24 PM EDT
[#6]
Airborne forces that assault an objective deep in the enemy rear without a heavy supporting ground maneuver force, will die in place against a well armed, entrenched, opposing force. They have a short lifespan, unless reinforced shortly after landing.
These forces are used to secure high ground/key terrain, seize high value targets such as ports and airfields, and secure entry points for follow-on forces to enter the theater. They can also cause the enemy to divert scarce resources to combatting a rear area threat, so denial, diversion, and deception are additional capabilities. When the Russians invaded Afghanistan, Spetnazis came in on commercial airliners, and that is where that part of the movie was derived from, IMO. A lot of MI guys advised that movie and SOF Mag did some good writeups on it when it came out. |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 3:14:23 PM EDT
[#7]
I was in high school when the movie came out and it scared the crap out of me. Hated seeing the Communists use the gun registration records to round up all the gun-owners.
GunLvr |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 3:35:16 PM EDT
[#8]
Darn! I forgot about the Form 4473's. They are to be kept at the point of sale, for how long I can't remember. And I held an FFL for nine years. I'm running upstairs and watching this movie again. The battle in the Forest with the Snow and the Bad Guys in the white camo was cool.
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Posted: 9/7/2002 4:05:09 PM EDT
[#9]
I saw that movie in the theater when it came out. I was like 16 I believe. Freaked me out!
Bradd |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 4:18:54 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Quoted: If they came in via russain transports.. might be detected.. but if they chartered enough airliners.. they could of opened the door in mid flight and jumped.. no one would of ever none until it was to late.. I haven't been to airborne school yet, but a lot of buddies of mine have. When they jump out of a C-17 or C-141 the jet wash was enough to knock one of their helmets off and is enough to jar you up good. This is a plane going roughly 130 knots at around 1500 feet. Jumping from a commercial airliner at 30-50k feet is a bit rough to be done en mass by an airborne unit. The planes would have to be flying faster and there are no real good exit points on the planes that would allow troops to jump out without being shredded by the engine or getting torn apart. Also jumping from above 14k feet calls for use of oxygen, at least at the military level. this is so you don't pass out on the way down. I'm sure it has been done by special forces operating in south America using a HAHO technique to sneak into countries not allowing us troops via commercial air space but or a large number, division sized it would be impossible. The training is too costly and too time consuming to perfect for such a large number of people |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 4:26:20 PM EDT
[#11]
In the movie, the majority of the Russian troops came up from Mexico through Texas (which had also been nuked, along with many of the major central cities in the MidWest) to reinforce the Airborne troops. The idea, however plausible, was that they had secretly staged a large number of troops in Mexico for the invasion.
-Troy |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 4:52:44 PM EDT
[#12]
That's the leap of logic that must be made for the story line. In reality, there is no way in Hell that a large conventional force could stage/mass in Mexico without detection. We would smoke them like a cheap cigar before that would be allowed to happen. When you think of defense of the US, think of density. Can a titanium drill bit penetrate a 2" oak block? Sure it can. How about 1000 miles of Oak? It will be worn down/non-effective, and the increased resistance as experience is gained could be much more than that offered by oak.
When you look at the 911 debacle, consider it something akin to a 100lb guy sucker punching any heavyweight power builder at a bar: He got off one cheap. The big guy will then proceed to mop up the floor with the little guy, which is what is happening now. |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 5:17:22 PM EDT
[#13]
The movie was really hokey of course. Very little having to do with any plausible reality.
However the movie was great in that it was one of the few right wing movies to come out of Hollywood in the last 30 years or so. The Commies were truly painted as bad guys. The brave American boys fighting against a tough foe and winning. Strong pro-gun, pro patriotic and anti-Commie message. Great AK-47 action. I like to watch it occasionally on DVD. |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 5:24:53 PM EDT
[#14]
Especiallly in it's original context(1982?), it was a movie 'first' in a lot of ways. The director John Milius co-wrote the screenplay for Apocolypse Now. He also directed Conan, and Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders.
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Posted: 9/7/2002 5:32:00 PM EDT
[#15]
Great movie if you can suspend disbelief about transporting/sustaining the Russians. This movie was used in my Law of Armed Conflict class to demonstrate the exercise of "levee' en masse" - spontaneous mass uprising by non-uniformed civilians. Legal according to the laws of war. Picked it up at Blockbuster on DVD for $7.50 last month.
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Posted: 9/7/2002 5:42:04 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: Especiallly in it's original context(1982?), it was a movie 'first' in a lot of ways. The director John Milius co-wrote the screenplay for Apocolypse Now. He also directed Conan, and Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders. Also a member of the NRA and one of the few in the Hollywood community that has the guts to be vocal about his pro-gun beliefs. Or maybe he is the only person in Hollywood who is pro-gun. |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 7:03:48 PM EDT
[#17]
I watched it on DVD last night. True, some parts were a stretch but it had several good points to it. Most notably was that assualting a well armed country like the USA would be risky if not suicidal. If we keep our private arms it will never happen here. I've got enough to arm the "Wolverines" by myself. Who would try to invade us? Terrorisum is the only way anyone can hurt us unless the democraps take our weapons from us.
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Posted: 9/7/2002 7:20:25 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Especiallly in it's original context(1982?), it was a movie 'first' in a lot of ways. The director John Milius co-wrote the screenplay for Apocolypse Now. He also directed Conan, and Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders. Red Dawn was the first PG-13 movie ever made. Bit of trivia. I liked Red Dawn a lot. You can tell he basically made a screenplay out of a daydream, real gun-nut male fantasy. I like pretty much anything Milius writes, though he hasn't made anything since Rough Riders in 1997 (which was great too). |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 7:37:33 PM EDT
[#19]
The invasion wouldn't work due to one word: logistics.
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Posted: 9/7/2002 7:39:03 PM EDT
[#20]
John Milius was also one of the writers of Dirty Harry, one of the grestest cop movies and a movie which captures the insanity of the liberal early 70s very well.
GunLvr |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 7:58:43 PM EDT
[#21]
You guys pick movies apart too much,although I guess i'm guilty of that too. I stopped doing it. I just watch the movie and enjoy it. But I still get pissed when a guys semi-auto goes click..click when he runs out of ammo.
"That wouldn't happen" [:)] |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 8:16:38 PM EDT
[#22]
All they would have to do is dress like Mexicans and walk across the border. Spread out over a year or two, then attack at a pre-planned time.
Hell, we have watering stations to help them across... |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 8:26:59 PM EDT
[#23]
Using commerial airliners would be difficult for lack of areas to disembark from and to fast of speed ? Oh please
What was the name of the man who jumped from the airliner with a parachute. I am not sure of the model designation but I have flown on one before. It has a fold down rear ramp with stairs. Very easy to disembark from. Sustaining troops ? Would you not just consume the rations from the towns that you invade. Srew the civilians, who cares if they eat... Yeah, the movie was a stretch but definately not completely out of the reealm of possibility. For my whole life I felt that this country and its government had the security of our soil wrapped up tight. I have heard of hidden missle turrets near the White House and Capitol. Hell, 9/11 blew all that completely out of the water. We had hardly anything to fall back on for security.... |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 8:32:08 PM EDT
[#24]
D. B. Cooper
[url]http://www.usnews.com/usnews/doubleissue/mysteries/cooper.htm[/url] |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 9:36:37 PM EDT
[#25]
In the real world I would hope that there would be more "AR15.com" type resistance than a bunch of high school kids.
You have to remember that there was some sort of conflict going on in South America at the time and that the ground troops were already in place. The USSR had also taken out a good portion of the Chinese population with nukes. And that the government (must have been the Carter administration) did not launch a retalitory attack on the USSR or Cuba. Instead the commies keep pushing for complete registration of firearms or a full and complete ban on private ownership of firearms. [x] |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 9:47:06 PM EDT
[#26]
oh come on no one has done this yet
"John has a big mustache" "The Chair is Agienst the wall" |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 10:00:03 PM EDT
[#27]
I found it unrealistic, as all of the people would have chosen to take the path of the lesser of two evils and helped the mayor's patriotic efforts.
The only good part is seeing that the stupid libertarian types got rounded up and put in the drive-in theater converted re-education camp. |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 10:05:43 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: You guys pick movies apart too much,although I guess i'm guilty of that too. I stopped doing it. I just watch the movie and enjoy it. But I still get pissed when a guys semi-auto goes click..click when he runs out of ammo. "That wouldn't happen" [:)] I just watched "Imposter" and they had a Glock 18 that could be "cocked" and "uncocked" (useing CC text here). It also had a "Safety" that when it was on, the hammer just went click click and it didnt fire. I was complaining but then my girlfriend said it was "just a movie" They should try to get their movies right. |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 10:40:18 PM EDT
[#29]
Red Dawn - a personal favorite, I have it on VHS, DVD & Divx - so I can enjoy it anywhere.
Could it really happen, I think so, and more likely now than back in 82. [b]USMC_LB[/b] was on the right track. Every state has a number of NaTGuard Armouries, if those could be seized at the out set there is there initial supply of heavy equip & arms. Also as to commercial airliners - this country is blessed with [i]Interstates[/i] which would provide a great choice of alternate landing sites. - If a few advance ?infiltrators? were to be at the selected locations with a semi rig or 2... As stated in the movie, I doubt that anyone in our Government has the Stomach or the resolve to use tactical nukes within the continental U.S. even in our own defense. - Likewise, unlike Russia when faced with Napoleon's advance, we would never adopt a [i]scorched earth[/i] policy to deny resources to invaders. Valkyre They should try to get their movies right. When I watched "The Abyss" - in the scene where he cocks the M10 right before a scene change, I almost fell out of my chair, they got it right! |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 10:50:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Is it just me or is this entire thread just friggin hilarious? We're having a serious discussion about a 80's movie. HAHA
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Posted: 9/7/2002 10:57:59 PM EDT
[#31]
Is it just me or is this entire thread just friggin hilarious? We're having a serious discussion about a 80's movie. HAHA One of, if not the only movie to ever show a 'modern' attack or invasion againt the U.S.- made at the height of the cold war, just after the damn hostages had been released in Iran. Spooky stuff. |
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Posted: 9/7/2002 11:01:41 PM EDT
[#32]
In the beginning of the movie Red Dawn the enemy forces came through as migrant field workers.
Nicaragua and Cuba reach 500,000 in military strength. The the Colonel told them that the Russians Reinforced the Cuban and Nicaraguan Armys with 60 Divisions of men. Not only did the Russians use the commercial airline and jumping in they came over through Canada and Alaska and they cut the pipeline. Do i think this could happen?Maybe,but not in the Red Dawn context. By the way Wal Mart has Red Dawn for $6.44 VHS and $9.96 on DVD. |
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Posted: 9/8/2002 5:58:38 AM EDT
[#33]
Some other trivia from that movie:
Millius went to extremely great lengths to get little details about the Soviets correct. The hand-built "AK-74" mock-ups that were carried by the SPF troops (Spetsnaz actually being a Soviet military term for Western military Special Operations Forces) when the AK-74 had only been known in the west for a few years. The DSHK-38 mockups built using M60Ds that appeared in several movies after this (name three). Soviet airliners were designed for exigent use as military transports and could deliver troops by static line (and the Soviets used them for this to deliver the 103rd Guards Air Assault during the invasion of Afghanistan). Millius unwittingly started an FBI investigation when someone saw his T72 mock-ups being carted around LA; no one had laid hands on a real T72 at that time, and the feds checked in to where his came from again, hand-built). One of them was donated by Millius after the movie was done (I've seen its final resting place and visited it). Again, extra points if you know where it is. As an impressionable teenager, this movie had an impact on me. Later as a professional student of the Soviet military, I knew that this was an unlikely scenario; the Soviets always lacked the force projection capability (strategic airlift and sealift) to perform this kind of activity, and lacked the seapower and airpower to keep forces supplied at even a rudimentary level overseas. They couldn't even adequately supply 100,000 troops in Afghanistan, let alone support a major military operation on another continent, but it was an interesting movie. |
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Posted: 9/8/2002 6:08:24 AM EDT
[#34]
when i was in the army i was in Alaska to respond!
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Posted: 9/8/2002 6:29:06 AM EDT
[#35]
A few comments...
Hoplite, I think you might mean HALO (High Altitude, Low Open) instead of HAHO for "sneaking into enemy territory". This method of parachute deployment is done from extreme altitudes with parachute deployment at only a few thousand feet. For those arguing that the logistics were too hard and such, the movie I believe brings that to light. The russian invasion force is unable to seize the entire US. Also remember that if you can get a large enough section of a foreign country, the seized infrastructure (railroads, interstate highways, rivers, etc.) become yours to exploit. While I agree that the USSR never could have pulled this off, there are other turns in history which could have made such an invasion completely plausable. Allow me a moment to rewrite the end of WWII and suddenly the United States would have had one very formidable enemy and in only a few years they could have developed enough sea and air power including troop transport to project an amazing force across the oceans. September 11th should have reminded us all that eternal vigilance is the only way to maintain freedom. Ryan |
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Posted: 9/8/2002 7:03:23 AM EDT
[#36]
I found it more believeable than most. I can quickly imagine my "sheep" neighbors giving up their freedom in exchange for their lives.
I also imagine if Canada & Mexico had allowed Soviet troops to conduct "training exercises" while Clinton was President, we would have, at most, cancelled NAFTA, to show our discomfort. |
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Posted: 9/8/2002 9:58:47 AM EDT
[#37]
the Ruskies could never make it past...WalMart!!!
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Posted: 9/8/2002 10:29:28 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Airborne forces that assault an objective deep in the enemy rear without a heavy supporting ground maneuver force, will die in place against a well armed, entrenched, opposing force. They have a short lifespan, unless reinforced shortly after landing. The 101st did some real crazy assaults during WWII, counting on support that never came or came late. |
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Posted: 9/8/2002 10:41:01 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: The USSR had also taken out a good portion of the Chinese population with nukes. "Europe decided to sit this one out. I guess they figured that twice in one century was enough." "So who's on our side?" "About six hundred million screaming chinamen." "I thought there were a billion people in china?" "There were." eerie scene. |
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Posted: 9/8/2002 11:36:48 AM EDT
[#40]
HAHO jumps are performed when you don't want it obvious where you're actually deploying. A parafoil can travel 40+ miles from an altitude of 30,000 feet.
I was in my early teens when the movie came out, and watching a bunch of kids who can hunt and live off the land perform guerilla operations against a superpower was quite a rush at that time. I can nitpick the movie all I want, but I still love it. |
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Posted: 9/8/2002 12:02:19 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: All they would have to do is dress like Mexicans and walk across the border. Spread out over a year or two, then attack at a pre-planned time. Hell, we have watering stations to help them across... If you pay real close attention, that's exactly what they did in the movie. |
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Posted: 9/8/2002 12:32:46 PM EDT
[#42]
It's too bad we don't have movies like this today, which imagine confrontation with our real enemies, which the Soviet communists were at the time.
But today they even changes stories (SOAF) so that we don't even mention our real enemies. Red Dawn is a classic and deserves to be so. Sure it is a little campy, but it did have an impact on me and my friends, who were about 18 at the time. |
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Posted: 9/8/2002 1:07:02 PM EDT
[#43]
Often wonder if the film was ever shown in the USSR. Milius did a very crafty thing in making the flick. The Wolverines ops against the Russians were taken directly from tatics used by the Russian Partisans against the Germans in WW2. Coming out of holes in the ground, decoying enemy soldiers w/a pretty girl, executing betrayers in the field, etc. Any Russian old enough to have been there 1941-45 would have gotten the message; "What you did to the Germans when they invaded, we will do to you if you try it".
To me, that made the movie worth seeing. |
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Posted: 9/8/2002 1:11:06 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: A few comments... Hoplite, I think you might mean HALO (High Altitude, Low Open) instead of HAHO for "sneaking into enemy territory". This method of parachute deployment is done from extreme altitudes with parachute deployment at only a few thousand feet. For those arguing that the logistics were too hard and such, the movie I believe brings that to light. The russian invasion force is unable to seize the entire US. Also remember that if you can get a large enough section of a foreign country, the seized infrastructure (railroads, interstate highways, rivers, etc.) become yours to exploit. While I agree that the USSR never could have pulled this off, there are other turns in history which could have made such an invasion completely plausable. Allow me a moment to rewrite the end of WWII and suddenly the United States would have had one very formidable enemy and in only a few years they could have developed enough sea and air power including troop transport to project an amazing force across the oceans. September 11th should have reminded us all that eternal vigilance is the only way to maintain freedom. Ryan 2 years ago in my ROTC class at VMI one of the SF Personell working there explained it to me. It is jumping and popping the chute less than 30 seconds after exiting and then navigating using a parafoil chute to destinations in upwards of 25. Pretty wild stuff |
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Posted: 9/8/2002 1:22:17 PM EDT
[#45]
With those "sheep" neighbors would the enemy have really needed the Form 4473's from the hardware store to gather up Armed trouble makers? They would only grab the weapons purchased there anyway missing many others unless they really searched thoroughly. But I guess the "sheep" would take care of the rest. Yes , the flick was a bit "corny", but it really made me think. I also would like to think that those like us could cause more disruption to an invading force. IMHO.
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