My grandfather is rich and I have some money saved up and we got to talking because we like making money.



Curious what exactly it would cost to get an FFL and a machine shop up and running?  If there is no ban passed and the cost is reasonable I am pondering getting a firearms business going.  If all manufacturers are facing two years of back order then that means I can probably profit 24/7 for at least two years and if it dies down much after that I can just cash out and sell the equipment if unable to carve a spot in against the competition.



Not really looking to get into barrel making since I have heard it is a completely different monster or complete guns.  Probably just machine receivers and BCGs .





Anyone know what kind of cost I am looking at for this with used or new equipment?  Also what does a machinist run for salary? Im not going to pretend I know how to run one of these things so Ill need to hire someone that does.  Might make them partner in the business in exchange for lower initial salary if machinist rates are extremely high.

This is going to be interesting.



<-- machinist

what do you cost mr machinist?  Anything more helpful to add?   Rough guess on equipment costs maybe ?



 

No idea of the cost related, but if that's all you're going to be doing, I'd think acquiring the raw materials would be rather difficult and expensive.

An FFL is not that expensive but takes time. The Manufacturing license costs a lot more, and then there is dealing with your city, county and state.

This FFL link is for California, I'm sure that it is similar to what you need for AZ

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=384995

more general info
http://www.ehow.com/how_5019064_become-licensed-gun-dealer.html

We would have the capitol to buy bulk for things like that but I just need a rough estimate on what I need and who i need to hire for initial costs to see if it's even worth it.    Aluminum and steel aren't out of stock last I checked.



 

Do you really want to incur hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs, FFL fees, labor, time, real estate, and construction just to crank out a few ARs for a little bit?

You're going to be a new player. You'll have to market to distributors and dealers in order to sell your product. You'll have to innovate some.

Do you REALLY want to do this in a time like this? Your lead time will suck. Honestly, it will probably be to the point that when demand falls off the cliff is when you crank out your first rifle. Why? Gotta build the facility, get the licenses, hire people, train people on the machines, and market the product before you can even think about recouping your investment.

We've seen this before. Manufacturers hired more and expanded their capacity when it happened last time. By the time they got the extra capacity going, demand had ceased to exist. Colts were going for sub $1k. They lost their asses on that investment.

The market is close to saturation. When it reaches that point, the bubble will pop, and you'll be out a fuck ton of money, most of which you won't be able to get back.

The last Mazak the shop I was at bought was just over $200,000 installed but it was brand new. The hard part will be finding forgings to mill into uppers and lowers. You could just mill them out of bar stock but billet lowers aren't as popular as forged.

As you said "machinist" and "machining" I thought $$$. It aint cheap, bro.

<------ Work in a machine shop as an operator.

Well, he could always sell to the BATFE, to export to that lucrative Mexican Market....







 

Colt already does that, they love their gubbermint cheese.

Im no fool .  Just looking into it.  I have read you can find decent machines in the 25k range.  industrial commercial property is cheap right now.   the main thing would be figuring out the time it would take to get a product out as I would have to float a machinists salary and would have to get in before demand dropped to be able to make a name worth buying.





I think advertising and marketing would be the easy part nowdays with the demand out there.      It's high risk I know but I am still young so SOME risk is worth taking.  I certainly wouldn't pull the trigger on anything until we find out whether or not we will win the gun battle.  They are giving it their last shot now and if they can't ban the EBR now they wont be able to in the near future.
 

I would be worried about being late to the party.  There are already established shops that could expand to meet demand.  The demand that is there, even the two year backlog, might not be there is six months.  If nothing comes of the recent ban push, then I would imagine that people are going to cancel orders and the market is going to be flooded guns from those who have buyers remorse.  It seems to me that if you already had an established shop then you could make a lot of money right now, but if you don't have one already then you risk having the market disappear while you establish your business.

Here is my gut reaction and my immediate thoughts.

I do not know the firearm industry at all (on a business level) or even the machining industry. My only qualifications are as a businessman and financial manager (CFO type) for a large wood products manufacturer a la mom and pop (75-100 employees, privately owned, 'niche' company).

The first thing I think of is setup and tooling time. I imagine if you said 'go' tomorrow it may take you a year to get running. Maybe six months but I am not sure. Have to find a place to setup, find machinery (new or used), get the machinery here (assuming you paid cash and did not finance which takes it to a whole 'nother level), and get it set up which can include, and almost certainly will, modifications to your plant space. Then you have to calibrate it in some way I am sure and get your production methods setup. So, you could use up to half of your immediate two year window to get it going, per se. And you may not be producing anything yet, you just have the capacity too. You might pop them out left and right. You might run into some engineering difficulties that can take a while to sort out.

While I don't know anything about metals and the market for them I wonder if you'll have to buy a lot of raw material to get started too. Anything less and you could be paying a hefty premium which you have to figure into your margin. Okay, so you figure you can pay that premium and still do it. Now you have carrying costs and that raw metal sitting there waiting to be used for however long, assuming you can put a time on turnover. For instance, in the hard wood industry (I know it isn't metal but all I have for reference), anything less than a semi truck load of wood at 20K-40K (depending on the species) is considered small beans and we pay considerably more for small shipments.

Marketing and getting into the industry can be done during the same time as above, I guess. That isn't really my area but in my experience, it really just takes a go getter who is a people person and knows how to move in the right circles.

For instance, we decided to expand our market. We bought a new machine, bought a lot of raw material, and spent a good bit of money getting it setup. Hiring the right person to sell it and get the orders. Even then, using the ample experience of employees and the owner it took nearly 18 months before we could sit down to measure it. "Okay, how much did it end up costing? What are we getting out of it? What does the future look like?" Questions like that.

I think it sounds like a fabulous idea, personally, OP. I've wondered the same thing aloud over the last month. Somebody who knows what they are doing and has the capital and capacity can really stand to profit right now. I'm just ultra conservative. I play the devil's advocate a lot (it's what I get paid to do) so I always sound like a pessimist and, by God, I can see the worst in anything.

You can get a used bridgeport or clone - then convert it to CNC. The CAD/ CAM files are all over the place that will allow you to mill billet 80% lowers while you get a feel for the business. No need for FFL and your startup costs are reasonable... this is the route I am exploring presently.

that would be my main concern is canceled orders once the panic is gone .   The other side of that coin though is there will be hundreds of thousands of new AR owners with Black Rifle disease. I see the platform becoming more popular in the future if they don't manage to ban it.  The AR is the next 870 or 700.  My line of thinking is that the current demand might be enough to get a business through the first year or two.  There is no better time to get something started than when supply is nowhere near demand.  



 

Good luck finding decent machinists.

Who is going to do the reverse engineering/design work so that the machinist has something to program/make?

No, but are you going to be able to buy them and have them to the market at a competitive price? I suppose at the moment, just having them in stock could net you some quick cash, but I'm not sure how long that will be the case. Just something to consider. Good luck with your venture.

ull be up and running once the panic is over..  bad idea.

Good thing you have lots of money.  Your about to have lots less.



But good luck.





 

Man your looking at hundreds of thousands for CNC machines, mills, and all the other equipment. I was a machinist at a company in TN that makes airplane wings and all kinds of other parts for different aircraft and made around $80k and i'd think you would want a few, somewhere to put all the machines and other stuff...I bet it's a hell of a lot, but that's what they have loans for! Firearms are better than money in the bank man. If you have the cash do it.

Welcome to the wonderful world of ITAR.



God bless the government.

I'm cheap.



How many lowers a week do you want to broach?



Maybe we could wire edm them?



What's your plan?



Production doesn't happen on some bullshit grizzly mill.



 

I've worked in 2 seperate firearm manufacturing companies. Lead time is horrendous. Get used to it. Unless you have a niche market, profit margin will be small. You are going to have to pump out a lot, a hell of a lot, to make a decent profit.

AR recievers you can do on a vertical machine like a Haas or a Fadal.  You can pick one of those up pretty decently priced from a broker on the used market. Usually with all the collets you will need.

Bolt carrier will probably need to be done on a 4th axis machine and the will set you back a pretty penny.

And like fiver mentioned. You get to pay your ITAR wether you like it or not.

Better see an experienced law firm too as there are serious legal issues and liabilities. What if a product catastrophically fails or gets used in a murder? Americans are lawsuit mongers especially folks who need money. Nobody takes credit and everyone passes the buck. Your liability insurance is another cost consideration. Suppose I buy a lower of yours and shoot a home invader. I'll be sued by the pricks family as will the city, and the firearm manufacturer (you) . It's standard procedure for assholes these days. Something to consider... If you do get a business running and the market drops you can always bid for contracts with companies and the gov to manufacture parts to spec. That's the beauty of CNC. There's always demand for machine shops and machinists. My father in law is a sheet metal worker for the airforce and has many machinist friends, and we'd talked about this as well. Worst case you have to sell your equipment and lay off your workers at a big loss but you will still have the FFL and you might be able to outfit your building as a retail store with an indoor range with more city permits...  Be careful and don't dive in without getting a good idea what may lie ahead, and add a large pessimistic margin of error to your estimated costs to start. Any project, from a home repair to a trip to the Moon, inevitably runs into something which ups the cost and time to completion. Maybe hire someone with a great deal of applicable experience to either run it or consult. Best of luck!

The first indication of "I'm going to lose my ass" was "my grandfather is rich..."

I say do it. You have over twenty thousand posts. It looks like you need something better to do with your time than sitting at your computer.

You'd be helping yourself and the cause a lot more if you gave that money to the NRA instead of blowing it all. I'd imagine if you were a successful business owner and entrepreneur you'd already be running something and not relying on someone else or asking about it here.

Please, for he love of God, name this said firearms company: "destroyer of liberals"

Might be called "destroyer of my grand daddy's bank account" lol

Forgings will be your main bottleneck.  There are but a few forge shops with the dies and I bet they have a backlog measured in years.





You will also need a mag well broach.  This isn't cheap, it has one use, to finish the mag well out.  Sure, the mill takes the bulk of  the metal away but the broach saves a lot of time.  Other manufactures use wire EDM, this is very slow.  The broach is fast because it requires minimal setup and aligns itself in the lower.  The speed of the cut is slow but all 4 sides are cut at the same time so it takes seconds.





Here is a neat video:









This machine is a pull-through.  The setup isn't shown, the rough milled mag well is placed on the machine with the broach held up by the round shank you saw at the end of the stroke.  The pulling head has been disconnected from the lower end shaft of the broach.  The lower part of the broach easily passes through the rough machined receiver, then the pull head chucks onto the shank of the broach.  Now the actual machining can be done.



The pull head lowers the broach into the receiver, then the teeth shave away the excess aluminum, each successive tooth is slightly larger and therefore takes another small bite.  The forces are balanced except for the down pulling force, the receiver rests on the table but isn't clamped.



The last final teeth are of the same profile, the finished shape.  This removes any bow from the spring of the metal.




 

A custom broach like that makes things a hell of a lot easier but he could broach the mag well with just a standard broach he could make and by making a guide to go on the opposite side of the mag well that he is broaching.

A shop recently opened up in my town. They are making money hand over fist and turn out a nice rifle. They weren't supposed to open for another month, but the possibility of a ban kicked them into gear. It's nice having a source for lowers that are in stock and aren't ridiculously priced.

I had this conversation with one of the guys at work the other day.  We could bust out hundreds a day, but getting forgings will be the hold up.  And to be honest with you, I feel that things will simmer down in the next few months.

...pif one lower? <3

Have a base outside of the industry.  

Or... buy an old slitter, a break press, and if you want to go all out a Bridgeport from one of the thousands of machine shops going out of business.  The old 50's tech, would work fine for alot of things, it's versatile (dies will cost you) but maintenance is a snap.

You could get into a lease with Haas or the like, you'll need an operator.. could be yourself.  Tens of thousands of an investment if you go that route.

Have you looked into importing ammo as a short term business? That might be easier assuming you have overseas sources you can get supply from.

"pif"?

Just make lowers, lower parts and BCGs. You'll be rich!

Think back to 2008, did the backlog last anywhere near as long as any of the manufacturers had projected?  No.  People artificially inflate demand by placing multiple back orders.  Once the first order comes in they cancel the rest.  Also, once demand dies down, a lot of people will be canceling orders because no ban is coming so they can pick up an AR at any time.  IOW, by the end of summer prices will drop back to normal or lower, demand will drop, and supply will be bloated.

after looking into it Im thinking at least a year or two to get things rolling.  Not worth the risk of the demand drop off since I have no real background in machining and no idea what to do if rifle parts aren't enough to sustain a business.



so, nevermind



 

I help out in the shop of a current FFL/sot manufacturer, he is a small niche market guy .most of his product will be banned I am sure . We had the let's build. lowers discussion, , we do not have a cnc machine, , it would be simple enough to hire cnc work somewhere and vet a variance from the atf and build lowers. We are still doing the same builds as before the panic. Just we are trying to have receivers complete in case there is a rule or law change.

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I wonder how much it would cost to start an ammo company?

Edit for something more useful

If it was simply the space, machine, labor and materials, it would be easy.


Who's design, are there still patent issues to deal with?
The code must be wriiten as well.
How long will the atf paperwork take, and what special hoops will you need to jump through?
(I have seen "cages" used in firearm production areas)
Liability?
You then have the run of the mill needs like powder coating and such.
Inspection equiptment is big money as well.
Take care of all of that, and you will then have a pile of lowers sitting on your desk.  Now what?

No offense but I think your reach exceeds your grasp.  If you are not involved in this industry you might be better off looking to finance someone who is.

speed

What about an coached DIY shop?  You want an AR, you go to the shop and their highly skilled team of expert assistants show you how to put the metal bits in the right place, and which button to push, and how to load the CNC program...     too clever?  Serious suggestion.

Your 4 years too late, this "panic" will be over soon, there are 4 things driving this panic.

A. The apocalypse "doomsday peepers"
B. the AWB is motivating people to buy
C. Flippers who want to make a profit
D. Enthusiasts wanting to fill holes in there want list.

A didnt happen, B in the next few weeks either will pass or not, either way it will no longer be motivating buyers, C goes hand in hand with B once the AWB goes either way C will stop buying and start selling, D is normal demand and will always be there.

If the AWB does not go into effect A, B and C wil open there closets and say "holy shit why did I buy all this stuff" and we will see a flood of parts on eBay, Craigslist and the EE.

If I had the funds, I'd start making ammo.

Good thing your grandpa is rich, because you apparently have as much business acumen as my 7 year old daughter......there are so many things to say but the fact that the thing that worries you the most is "how much will I have to pay a machinist", underlines how fucked you will be.

If I were you and your grandfather I would call a lower receiver and/or BCG manufacturer and see if you could set up a subsidiary manufacturing shop with them?

ETA:  And the post above suggesting setting a ammunition company is a GOOD ONE!!

If you want to open a machine shop you need to manufacture products for the oil and gas industry.  Not gun parts.
BTW, we machinist are expensive and very high maintenance