I love this mindless opinion.  Sure, Christianity and other organized religions have been used as reasons for many horrible acts throughout history.  But yet, if organized religion is to blame for all the ills of the world, how does one explain the atheistic regimes of such good hearted humanitarians like Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, and Pol-Pot?

Just something to ponder on a Sunday morning.

I thought it was, "The love of money is the root of all evil."

I give religion a neutral. They are responsible for great violence and intolerance, but they are also responsible for great art and morality.

Nobody, but nobody, better say [u]anything[/u] offensive about [b]Jesus Christ[/b] this Lord's Day morning!

Or any other time of the day!

Unless you're looking for a ten-page thread!

Eric The(AdvanceWarning)Hun[>]:)]

As a non-religious person, it's my opinion that humans are the root of all evil.  And all good too.

Any wars been fought in the name of the devil ??

....I thought both Saturday and Sunday were the days for the worship of [whacko] false idols?

Yes the WAR on billy "clit" clinton ,or it sure cost like it was a WAR [}:D]

Wasn't he the Devil ,or so i'm told here he was.

As a religious person, I believe that humans are capable of evil and good.  What inspires us to them is outside of us.

If there were no religion people would find other things to fight over.  It would end up being political ideology, tribal beliefs, or even between groups with different physical characteristics like skin color.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

Saturday is the Jewish Sabbath, while Sunday is the day of worship as established in the New Testament.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

Now I'm no expert on this subject of religion but I 'believe' B. "Clit" Clinton was considered the anti-Christ but not the devil him/herself. ??

many wars have been fought in the name of teh devil. He has many names, and many tools. Try lust, greed, jealousy, envy. These are hios tools and then when the battles are fought they call them other things, but in essense, it is still fought in the name of the devil, or for him.

I agree that organized religion has been responsible for many horrible acts. I don't thing religion itself is evil.  I think  it comes down to the folks in charge using religion for there own purposes (televangelist, Jim Jones, and David Koresh (sp?) come to mind).  I have also seen people attempt to subvert the message of religion on their own without the benefit of organized religion.  I am not sure which is worse.

Yeah, it's all Satan's fault... [rolleyes]

Couldn't have anything to do with human beings and the way their brains are wired from the git-go, could it?

The [:K][:K][:K] lives!!!  How you doing KentState?  I am thinking about going back to college this year, can you suggest a good pistol for personnal protection?

Thanks

Sgtar15

Ok Eric I'm game.  This will not offend the Father, but it may offend you.[;D]
Be gentle.[BD]


[red]Exodus 20:10 [/red]But the [u][b]SEVENTH[/u] day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:[/b]in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates
[red]Leviticus 23:3[/red] Six days shall work be done: [b]but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, [u]an holy convocation;[/u][/b] ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.



Today (9/1/02) is the first day of the week! Yesterday morning was the seventh day.

It would be difficult to deny religious zealousness has perpetrated a disproportionate amount of evil throughout history.
So was it G-d, motivating these people or did they do it on there own?  Would things have been better had folks just kept their relationship with G-d between their G-d and them selves?
Think about free will before you answer.
The difficulty ensues when people say they subscribe to whichevers entity's teachings, and then dont follow them. The dogma and doctorines have been in place for centuries. In most instances they're pretty clear....Turn the other cheek, Leave of from displeasure and let go of wrath lest thou be moved to do evil, Be not as a clanging bell or tinkling cymbal,Vengence is mine, Do unto others....tada tada tada. Seems to me as soon as you move in His name beyond these parameters , You have become your own G-d, and that seems dangerous to me.
Last thing He needs is negetive advertizing.

Wars fought in the name of the devil? Hmmm, [b]subdude[/b], I'm glad you asked!

[img]http://www.angelfire.com/fl/angelforever/images/symbol15.jpg[/img]

I'd pretty much say that any war begun by Hitler was a war in the name of the devil!

But then I suppose that's because I see Hitler as simply a proto-type of the Anti-Christ!

How do [u]you[/u] view Hitler? As a good little Austrian Catholic? [:D]

Eric The(Nonsense!)Hun[>]:)]

The Bible says in black and white that folks have been Muderous,Thieving,F*** your neighbor and his Betroved and it still goes on 24/7 to this day.
The Good Book has been a flat line in it's effort to inform folks how to be a "Model" image.
Humans by all of there body cells are a flawed life form and only destined to kill itself off as a race.........God where are you in our time of need????

Women are the root of all evil.  See proof:
[red]First, it is a well known fact that "women require time and money." Let's express this mathematically:

Women = Time * Money

Next, it is also common knowledge that "Time is Money." So we can substitute money for time to get

Women = Money * Money
or
Women = Money2

It's also well known that "Money is the root of all Evil." So, substitute the root of Evil (ã Evil) for money:

Women = ã Evil * ã Evil
or (with a little algebra)

Women = Evil[/red]

I know it's old, still funny though.

Well this is my first post and seeing as I'm a youth pastor as well as an AR15 freak I guess this is a fitting topic to start with.

OUR ever present help in time of need can be found at the following address.....
JEREMIAH 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart"

The reason "the good book" seems flatline to some, is because it's up to people to reach out to God, God has already made his move toward us in sending his son to die in our place, for our sins, he hasn't skipped town or gone on vacation, he is constantly looking for those who are seeking his help 2Chron. 16:9 "The eyes of the Lord search the whole earth in order to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him"

and it doesn't matter how bad you have been, are, or have become, Rom. 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us"
In spite of everything

Now that doesn't solve all the worlds problems,I know, (the bible, nor Christ, ever claimed that it would) But it does give hope to us "flawed life forms"  who are in need of some help and hope!

My very unpopular view for the day...sorry.

I have to agree. "Organized" religions, which would be ANY religion that has an organized structure with some "chain of command", are DEFINITELY evil. ALL of them.

Now don't go crying like a little girl when I say this...Hear me out.

I am NOT bashing people who follow their chosen religion, for they have NO IDEA what happens behind the closed doors of the elders when they meet.

Every religion has "legalistic" chores that they [red]require[/red] you to do to "get to heaven".

Some of those actions are: Terrorism, murder, baptism, using rosaries, mission work (forced), sacrifice, works, wearing certain clothes, having more than one god, secret ritual, etc. As you see, these are all DEMONstratable works that others will grade you on.

Some religions are less evil than others, but anything legalistic is still bad. The larger the religion, the worse it is.

Of course, there are things that each and EVERY religion does that appears to be of goodwill, charity, kindness and what not. Even with that, the 'good works' (usually) in no way compare to the evil that the religion has done in screwing with the salvation of each and every member of that religion.

The only thing required to follow your religion is Faith. Anything more than that is overkill.

As all humans are sinners, you can only imagine what can happen when a bunch of them get together and form the canon of an organized religion.

Faith is the only thing that others cannot control in you.

As far as Secular Humanism, Atheism, Gnosticism, Witchcraft, Freemasonry, Earth worship and crap like that, It is all of the Devil. When man becomes his/her "own" god, it is that thought exactly that makes Satan smile. His work is done there and he can go on to bigger prey.

In mission work, it is usually just a seed of faith that may sprout...It is the same with evil, sometimes just a seed is all that is needed.

And ETH...Sunday Schmunday! It is religion that has authorized that as the Sabbath...LOL

That may be, but the enjoyment of power is the TREE of all evil.

Palestinians arent money hungry.

Hitler was not money hungry.

Satan is not money hungry.

Post from Boom_Stick -

Nothing that doesn't offend the Father could possibly offend me!

Hmmm. So it says. It also says:

[b]And he said unto them, [red]The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath[/red]:[/b] Mark 2:27

Meaning that the Sabbath itself was made for man, and in the next verse, Jesus says that He is the Lord of the Sabbath, as well.

First, please understand that the Hebrew word 'Shabat' which we call 'Sabbath', does not mean 'Seventh', even though it sounds like it might, but 'holy.'

Jesus, as Lord of the [b]Shabat[/b], is given all authority in Heaven and in Earth. If He changes Shabat from the Old Testament day of Saturday, to the Mew Testament day of Sunday, what of it?

Do you think the Father minds that?

How important was the 'first day of the week' in the New Testament, after Christ's death on the cross?

Well, it was the Day upon which He arose from the grave. Pretty important.

It was the Day He first showed Himself to His disciples as the Risen Lord. Pretty important.

It was the ONLY Day in which He showed Himself to His disciples. Note that the Risen Savior appeared to the disciples on seven occasions, each one of those appearances specifically being said to be 'on the first day of the week.' Pretty important.

He ascended up into Heaven on the 'first day of the week.'  Pretty important.

His Church was established on Pentecost, which is always a Sunday, being the 50th day following the Passover feast. Pretty important.

Christians are described as meeting together on the first day of the week, which they called 'The Lord's Day', in Acts, Chapter 20:7; and in I Corinthians 16:2. Pretty important.

Paul specifically says to the Church in [b]Colassians[/b]:

[b]16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, [u]or of the sabbath days[/u]:

17   Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.[/b]

Paul is saying that the Sabbath was just a shadow of the coming Christ. Pretty important.

In the [i][b]Didache[/b][/i], it is written: "But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch wrote:

"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

Justyn Martyr wrote:

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

Tertullian wrote:

"[L]et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ‘friends of God.’ For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1–7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised—yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath—God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God" (An Answer to the Jews 2 [A.D. 203]).

In the [i][b]Didascalia[/b][/i] we find:

"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [i.e., Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven" (Didascalia 2 [A.D. 225]).

For better, or worse, the Christian Church has chosen Sunday to be the New [b]Shabat[/b] in this New Dispensation!

Remember [b]Boom_Stick[/b], the Patriarchs who walked with God Himself knew nothing of a Sabbath, so in an earlier Dispensation, there was no Sabbath, why could the Lord not change it in His newest Dispensation?

The Lord promised His church that the Holy Spirit would come to them and teach them all things. Apparently, the changing of the Lord's Day to Sunday was one of those things!

Eric The(Non-SeventhDayAdventist)Hun[>]:)]

Post from DevilsAdvocate -

I care not how 'unpopular' it may be, just whether your view is correct or not!

Well, there was a chain of command in Jesus' church, He was the Master, the disciples were the servants.

After He ascended to Heaven, there was still a chain of command. The very first thing the disciples did after His ascension was to elect a new disciple to replace Judas Iscariot.

They then appointed Peter to preach the main message for Pentecost Sunday.

They then appointed seven disciples to make certain to care for the Grecian widows of the church.

They sent out missionaries, received the gifts from the other churches for the poor in Jerusalem, and generally conducted themselves as a 'organized religion' would do today!

Even when the first 'dispute' concerning the need for circumcision of the new male converts to Christianity arose, this earliest church acted precisely as one would act today - they convened the 'Council of Jerusalem' in 48-49 AD, which was within twenty years of the death and ascension of our Lord, and the 'leaders' of the church decided which course of action to take!

Now that sounds pretty much like an 'organized religion' to me! How about you?

Was what these earliest leaders of the Lord's church do, right or wrong, in your view?

Well, I am an elder in my church and I meet with all the elders of neighboring churches.

What we 'do' behind closed doors would shock no one! With the possible exception of you, it appears! [:D]

Oh no, here's where we get into legalism vs. uh, grace, uh, faith, uh, whatever!

Let Jesus tell you plainly and directly what you must do in order to enter into His Father's Kingdom. It's really very simple.

So simple in fact that man had no problem following His directions, until, well, until certain churches began to put roadblocks in the way of some folks. And to begin dispensing with His requirements, believing themselves to be the Keepers of the Keys to Heaven!

I have underlined three actions that you describe as 'legalistic chores' that others put on you in order to get to heaven.

These three so-called 'legalistic chores' are:

1. baptism, 2. mission work, and 3. works.

Let's look at each one.

[b]Baptism.[/b]

Jesus was baptized, saying that He did so [red][b]'in order that all righteousness might be fulfilled'[/b][/red]. His disciples baptized converts under [u]His[/u] direction.

When a Ruler of the Temple came to Him by night and asked the Savior what must be done to obtain eternal life, Jesus answered:

[red][b]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, [u]Except[/u] a man be [u]born of water[/u] and of the Spirit, he [u]cannot[/u] enter into the kingdom of God.[/b][/red] John 3:5

His last directions to His followers on this earth is found in 'the Great Commission':

And he said unto them, [red][b]Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

[u]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved[/u]; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/b][/red] Mark 16:15,16

[b]So Christ [u]commanded[/u] His followers to be baptized.[/b]

[b]Mission Work[/b]

In the same 'Great Commission' pointed out above, Jesus commanded His disciples to go and preach the Gospel to every living creature!

It is [u]His[/u] command, not the command of some religion, or some religious leader, but the [u]undeniable[/u] command of the Lord Himself.

If [u]any[/u] Christian Church taught [u]otherwise[/u], it would be in serious trouble, would it not? Would it not be setting aside the Commandments of God for the doctrines of men? Surely!

[b]Works.[/b]

Now cite for us the verse in which Jesus says that He doesn't desire works!

It appears that Jesus expects His disciples to be doing works, and 'greater works' than He did, because He was ascending into Heaven.

As a matter of fact, the 'Final Exam' question that will be asked of [u]you[/u] in that Day of Judgment, will be, from the very lips of Christ Himself, that found in [b]Matthew, Chapter 25:[/b]

[red][b]31   When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32   And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33   And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34   Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35   For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36   Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37   Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38   When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39   Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40   And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41   Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42   For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43   I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44   Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45   Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46   And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.[/b][/red]

- continued -

Hmmm, feeding the hungry and thirsty? Giving shelter to the stranger? Clothes to the naked? Visiting the imprisoned?

Sure sounds like WORKS to me! How about you?

Does keeping the commandments of God, and the Doctrine of Jesus and His apostles, constitute [u]legalism[/u] in your view?

Then, if what you say is so, any church that is not 'legalistic' is an anathema to Him! They are setting aside the clear and direct commandments of God for the doctrines of man!

How can you possibly stay in such a church as that?

So faith is all that is necessary? Isn't that a dreaded 'work' then? Isn't 'belief' a work? Isn't 'repentance' a work? Isn't 'prayer' a work? Isn't 'confession' a work?

That is nonsensical and totally non-scriptural!

Find an example in the New Testament, after the establishment of the Church on Pentecost of anyone being saved, or converted, or coming to Jesus, or however you wish to put it, where they were not immediately baptized?

Just [u]one[/u] example will do!

But in fact you will find none! Baptism is required of all believers! Every single one!

[u]Unless[/u] they are led by the Holy Spirit, as Jesus promised them they would be!

So? No one can stop you from being baptized either! No one can stop you from doing good works!

Hmmm, are you 'laughing out loud' at me or 2,000 years of church history?

Your mirth borders on the blasphemous. The Lord's Day has been called the Lord's day since the beginning of His Church.

Look it up! [:D]

Oh, that's right, I've [u]already[/u] looked it up for you! So you should have no problem in discovering the true answer!

Eric The(Scriptural)Hun[>]:)]

Eric, I must say you are an inspiration to all believers.  I actually scope out the forums for your posts.  Just had to throw that out there.

Sorry Eric, looks like I hit a raw nerve on ya!

I stand firm in everything I have posted, but I will acknowledge one item.

"Legalism" from Christ is not Legalism, it is Gospel. I believe in the Gospel.

Again, works are not neccesary in salvation. Salvation produces good works, but good works do not produce salvation.

What you are basically telling me is that it is [red]NOT ENOUGH that Jesus died on the cross for me?[/red]

You seem to be a bit concerned with the legalistic aspect of a certain religion. What church do you belong to again?

Heres some more blasphemy for you: The Old Testament is almost unneccesary after the death and resurrection of Jesus. Everything we "really" need to know is in there.

Eric the (striking the nerves of Eric the(really pissed off now) Hun) DA

PS...It REALLY sucks to debate this kinda stuff on the internet. I know what I know , you know what you know, but without face-to-face discussion, it is almost pointless. Let's go shooting sometime!

I refuse to jump on Any religious Hay Wagons.The first three years of my schooling was spent in a private religous learning enviroment.....Know wonder I have opinions...The man banging his hand on the Pulpit still haunts my sleep!!!.

My old man said "religion is for people that need it" I trust his word cause there are some real ugly F***ers out there.

For the young man in a earlier post that did'nt directly quote me I would suggest you take a adventure in life on a missionary trek for the next several years in a third world country.Learn what the rest of the World really is about find out what it's like to suffer real pain and Diasease and famine in the name of God and I might consider your "it's up to me approach"....it's always been up to me....sure as Heck was'nt any false idols......

When Lazarus was brought back from the dead.

I call Truce.

Eric the (laymans terms) DA

Anything, anything to spare another one of your 10 page responses!

Edited to add:  Oops, I spoke too soon.

Post from DevilsAdvocate -

That happened the week prior to Jesus's Resurrection and approximately 60 days before the Establishment of Christ's Church on Pentecost!

BTW, how can you think that Lazarus, and his two sisters, Mary and Martha, were [u]not[/u] baptized?

That would be strange indeed.

But I will agree to your request for a truce, we can always crank this up later! [:D]

Eric The(Offline,Even!)Hun[>]:)]

Hun, I see Hitler pretty much as I suspect you do.

[b]Now What I don't remember seeing is Hitler sharing top billing with anyone much less the devil ![/b]

I just can't remember any wars where one side had "GO DEVIL" flags and shit.......where the mass communications of the day trumpeted sayings like......."Follow the Devil to Victory" !!!

[b]Again, I just can't remember reading about any wars fought in the name of the devil ??[/b]

-----------------------------------------------

Related question:  Is the devil and the anti-Christ the same entity ??

Ya got me there...My Bad! LOL

Eric the (running away with my tail between my legs) DA

I believe organized religions are only evil if they specifically call for the death of those that do not believe its creed.

As far as I know, Islam is the only one that proscribes this course of action for unbelievers or "infidels".

Ideas, epistimologies, religions and philosophies may be used or exploited to facilitate bad stuff, but it is those beliefs that require or provide for bad stuff to persons who don't agree with it that should be contained and (if need be) expunged.

Christ never changed the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day.  Christ did not come to us to change his fathers laws.
Here is what Christ says about his Fathers Laws:

[red] Malachi  3:6 For I am the LORD, [b]I change not[/b]; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed[/red]
Considering Christ was the Lord of the old testament, the one who wrote the ten commandments(see John 1), he didn’t come to [I]CHANGE[/I] them.  Otherwise the sons of Jacob had no promise.  "[red]And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [b]Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws"[/b] (Genesis 26:3-5)[/red]

[red]John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; [u][b]even as I have kept my Father's commandments[/u][/b], and abide in his love.

Matt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, [b]keep the commandments[/b]

Mark 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.[/red]
[I]Did Christ really need to add the following :
-Thou shalt have no other gods before me
-Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
-Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
-Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.[/I](people hate to obey this one, and will reason the Bible away to convince themselves they don’t need to keep it. Is it ok to murder? No, neither is breaking the Sabbath.)

[red]John 14:15 If ye love me, [b]keep my commandments.[/b] (They’re his after all, he wrote them)

John 14:21 He that [b]hath my commandments, and keepeth them,[/b] he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Matt 22:37-40 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.  This is the first and great commandment. [/red][Commandments 1-4][red] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[/red] [commandments 5-10][red] On these two commandments hang [b]all the law[/b][/red][commandments, also called the law][red] and the prophets.[/red]

Finally….
[red]Rev 22:13-15 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. [b]Blessed are they that do his commandments[/b], that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.[/red][obviously those who do not follow the commandments are outside the gates]


With what is said here in Revelations, I would have to deduce that obeying the commandments are requirements/prerequisites to everlasting life.  This means that God requires certain behavior and following of rules to be happy and sinless, unlike satan the law breaker, who will die. (death is the wages of sin, sin is the transgression of the LAW. See Rom 4:15)
If I were a lawyer, I would use Rev 22:13 as an anchor and study how everything in the middle relates to it.  




[red]Genesis 2:2-3  And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
And God blessed the seventh day, [b]and sanctified it[/b]: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.[/red]

The Sabbath was established at the creation.  The whole Law (commandments) was in place because with out Law there is no sin.   Paul wrote, "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15) [b][u]Otherwise, Cain committed no sin?![/u][/b]  
The Ten Commandments INCLUDING the Sabbath were not "invented" at Moses' time. They had been in full force and effect, and KNOWN by mankind for centuries.
Yes, There is forgivness for breaking the law, but we are still suppose to live according to it, not reason it away.



LOL!  Neither am I! I have never read their literature or been a member of their "organization".
I'll never take offense in reasoning the scriptures with someone, but I may if you call me an Adventist!
"Them's fight'in werds!" [;D]

Sorry [b]Boom_Stick[/b], but your arguments are all in the same vein as Seventh Day Adventists.

In my sig line that you quoted, I did not mean that [u]you[/u] were a Seventh Day Adventist, but simply that [u]I[/u] was not!

There was [u]no[/u] [b]Shabat[/b] celebration kept by G-d's people prior to the introduction of [b]Shabat[/b] in the Law of Moses.

That can be seen from a simple scan of the Old Testament for the presence of the word Shabat or Sabbath!

Easily done. None!

The earliest mention of [b]Shabat[/b] is in Exodus 16:23. There was no mention of Shabat prior to this, not even in Genesis where one might expect it to have been found, if it was a commandment of the Almighty!

No one prior to Moses (neither Adam nor Abraham) had ever heard of the Sabbath law much less kept it, and much less talked about it! The very first time that anyone was commanded to keep the Sabbath was in Exodus 16.

The word Shabat' or 'Sabbath' is not even found in the book of Genesis.

Gen 2:2-3 was written by Moses to tell Jews at Sinai the meaning behind WHY they were to keep the Sabbath! NOT WHEN the Sabbath was instituted.

Nope, for 2,000 years the Christian Church has kept Sunday as the [b]Shabat[/b] of the Christian Dispensation.

Eric The(SundayKindaGuy)Hun[>]:)]

all this christian mythology is very humorous,since there is no "god".

- on the seventh day, we RACE!!!!!

I can think of a few wars fought for the Devil.  Any government that establishes itself as the "religion" (Nazi Germany, USSR, Cuba, China) to the exclusion fo all other religions is making war for the Devil.  Those "religions" also make war against any dissenters among their own people.  170,000,000 killed since 1900 by their own governments in the name of the official state religion - government.

If you allow my Atheist little self pry in here a moment. I don't see anything particularly wrong with religion. Sure, I see that many times  there is hypocrisy within it and that sometimes I feel religion takes away the rights of those who don;t take part in the beliefs of that religion, but truthfully, I DO NOT judge people by their religion, but judge them INDIVIDUALLY. Yes, as an Atheist, I am allowed to judge people.
 I have seen people take religion and make it as an excuse to be "forgiven" when they commit a sin, BUT I have also seen people take religion and make it something to improve their and their family's lives.
But for me, I don't need religion. I think right now, I'm an okay human being. [:)]

[b]ArmaLiter[/b]

Does that mean you want to be worshipped on Saturday, or  Sunday? [whacko]

Bill

ArmaLiter:

You think?

Do you believe you're just random matter floating in the midst of the 'Bang?

If so, to what do you think your or our or civilization's purpose is?

Religions are epistemologies, to have an epistemology without having a religion is difficult.  

Maybe this fact will help you think about your epistemological situation: Some of our smartest scientific minds have been and are currently attempting to explain how life errupted spontaneously on the earth.  They cannot.  Many of them have developed or renewed monotheistic beliefs.  In fact, they have come to the point where they must turn to space junk (i.e. comets) to find the foundation of their evolutionary theories (i.e. non-creationism).

I'm not attacking, but from my perspective these are important things you should contemplate.

Herr Schickelgrubber was Demon possesed.[devil]

Bill

AL: There are Three things that could be said about your post.

1. Ignorance is bliss.

2. There are none so blind, as those that won't see.

3. There must be sight to see light.

Edited because this damned keyboard won't count properly. (Thanks)

Bill

Yes,organized religion sucks big time.
This is way I'm a Chistian(follower of Jesus)
And not a Catholic or a Mormon,Muslem,Orthodox Christian,Orthodox Jew or any other religion that knows who God is but will not follow his rules.

Origionally posted by Bill
AL: There are two things that could be said about your post.
1. Ignorance is bliss.
2. There are none so blind, as those that won't see.
3. There must be sight to see light.
Bill


you count funny dude
Rube-Bonically Challenged...Manic

Whassa matta - Don dem dam' schools in Floriday teach any youns RUBE-BONICS?

Bill

Manic:
Unfortunately all three are correct. With number one being the most appropos.

Bill

Thats kinda what I meant to say originally, but I have absolutely no tact.

Can we sacrifice things "just for fun" ?

Hiwathl,
Yes, your right, its always up to you.
Actually I am not that young, I just minister to youth, and I HAVE taken several missionary "treks" to third world countries, I am not just using preacher speak, when I said what I did.

If you are genuine in you "consideration" a friend of mine wrote a book that addresses a lot of these issues I think you are alluding to.

The whole "where are you god, in our time of need?" question.  
I mean look around you and YES you see it, seemingly that God has left the building/planet.

But this is not the case.
The book is "A case for Faith" by Lee Strobel
I suggest reading it, if you have time and you are truely looking for an answer to this.

He covers a lot of the hard questions...
Here is the table of contents

Objection #1
Since Evil and suffering exist, a loving God cannot
Objection #2
Since miracles contradict science, they cannot be true
Objection#3
Evolution explains life, So God isn't needed
Objection #4
God isn't worthy of worship if he kills innocent children
Objection #5
It's offensive to claim Jesus is the only way to God
Objection #6
A loving God wouold never torture people in Hell
Objection #7
Church history is littered with oppression and violence
Objection #8
I still have doubts, so I can't be a christian

These are the main objections that people have with faith and #7 ties directly to this thread, and (correct me if I am wrong) to your objection in your previous post.

I found a lot of answers in this book and it helped me grapple with some of these tough questions.