From another thread:



NO QUESTION that inestimably brave men did the soldiering, and sufferring and dying in WW2.

And its ALWAYS a risky proposition to insert God into the affairs of men, saying God did or didn't do this or that.

Here's my take:

[b] Listen to the words of the men who fought the war.[/b]

They'll tell you that IMMENSE amounts of time were spent in prayer, as men faced the possibility of death. Prayer that God would help them fight bravely, die well.

They'll tell you that the sheer number of blunders by Hitler was staggering. The fact that the Panzers were nowhere near the front on D-Day to be moved into action. The fact that Rommel was in Berlin for his wifes birthday at the monent of the attack. The pell-mell scattering of Airborne all over Normandy (NOT according to plan) that FROZE any German counterattack.) Over and over again critically bad decisions made by Hitler that helped the Allies win. The D-Day vets will tell you if ANY of 100 things had happened, the invasion would have been thrown back into the sea. It was this way thru the entire war.

On the flip side, Germany was a godless nation. A nation that didn't pray, that shunned God. God DOES NOT help such nations.

As I've studied WW2, I've come to the same conclusion. I see FAR too much "coincidence" for it to BE coincidence.

Does that mean God helped us win WW2?? I can't say for sure. But just as the Bible shows God's hand in helping defeat Israel's enemies in the OT, I see God's hand at work in WW2.

How does that apply to today???

Jarhead is right. WE gotta do the fighting. Israel had to do the fighting in the OT. God isn't gonna fly the planes, or shoulder the rifles.

But shotar is right too. God causes military leaders to make blunderous (is that a word?) decidions. God creates events that favor one side or another.

The question is "Are we more like israel of the OT that sought out God to help us fight bravely, and die well, or are we more like godless germany, a nation that God CANNOT, WILL NOT help?"

The answer to that question is "What kind of person are YOU???" multiplied times every adult in this nation.


If we are like Germany, a godles nation that He CANNOT help, it is MY fault, YOUR fault that that is so.

true, but my point was that Hitler was making the decisions.

And just like God confounded the enemy commanders that OT Israel fought against, the sheer weight of the number of blunders Hitler made (against teh advice of his field commanders) suggest to me that God confounded Hitler  as well.

But with regard to the field soldier, it's widely accepted that Europe had abandoned any true notion of God. The soldiers had no religious basis from which to draw, such that they could seek God. The atrocities committed by the German field soldiers give testimony to the practical atheism that was widespread in germany.

They might pray "Dear God save me" but as I said above, God COULD NOT honor what they were doing, due to the atheism of Hitler, and the types of people who put tens of thousands (i.e. six million) into ovens.

Americans committed atrocities too, but NOWHERE near the scope of the atheistic German commanders and soldiers.

Post from The_Beer_Slayer -

It matters not if you are a Christian soldier. If you are in the army of an Anti-Christ bent on the destruction of innocent men, women, and children, all the prayers in the world will not make your actions acceptable to the Lord!

Any German soldiers who were Christians should have thrown down their weapons in righteous disgust and indignation the first time that they saw atrocities committed upon civilian populations.

In WWII, that would mean about the second week of the battle in Poland!

After that, you knew that the army in which you were serving had no claim upon the mercies and cares of the Christian God!

We're talking about the countrymen of Martin Luther, for crying out loud! Of Bach and his [i][b]cappellemusik[/b][/i]! Of great cathedrals and religiously inspired art!

It's hard to believe that these soldiers did not understand Christianity!

So how long do you think that you could continue in the service of Hitler and God still answer your prayers?

You were either a Christian, or a good Nazi soldier - you couldn't be both!

Eric The(Let'sTalkOfRealGermanHeroes-LikeAdm.Canaris)Hun[>]:)]

Of course, Mark is wrong as usual.
Germany was most certainly not atheistic.
Even Hitler wasn't an atheist.  He wasn't a Christian, but he was most certainly not an atheist.

Let me clarify.

Hitler was raised in religious circles, but largely rejected religion.

He became a PRACTICAL atheist (but prolly wasn't the technical textbook atheist. For you anal retentives out there, by "practical atheist" I mean someone who LIVES like there is no God, reagardless of what he CLAIMS to beleive)

But thanks for weighing and contributing your usual "Mark is wrong" pavlovian response. Its well known your MAIN contribution here is to nit pick me to death. Hope you find life satisfaction in that.

Care to share YOUR first name, since, unbeknownst to me, we are apparently on a  first name basis here ??? - at least you are

[rolleyes]

I think the point of Hitler being an atheist or not is obvious, but non-relative...

How could any man that had any beleif in God do what he did to a human being, regardless of their religion.

It's just morally wrong either way you cut it. Should we kill Muslims, just because of their relation to the 9-11 attacks... negative.

Hitler was mentally ill and taking many drugs to combat a number of ailments. He made blunders because because of many things. He was insane and never a very good tactician. When he started to micro manage the war it was because he was too paranoid to trust most of his advisors. This lead to most of the blunders at the end of the war. IMHO

To imply that god had a hand in determining the out come of WWII or any battle or war . Then you would have to assume he could have stopped it before the first person had been killed , let alone hundred of thousands. If we were the GOOD GUY'S and they were BAD GUY'S that should have been easy to decided after a couple of hundred JEW were shot in the back of the head ?

What about all the wars between christian nations that have been fought for the last 2000 years. Both side pray to the same god that they will kill the other first. We know the good guy has not won all the time by any means. What about when the communist in Asia, won more than one war against christains. God must have helped them or he choose to not help his own flock.

To inject or interpret what god wants in the subject of war or mans inhumanity to his fellow man is dependant on what side you are on and who wins. "WE WON because that's what god wanted" A lot of bad people have uttered this claim.

I am ignorant to the logic if any of who god wants to help and how he chooses to allow someone to wipe out a country or ethnic group.
I disagree he has helped anybody "WIN" a war or kill another group of people.

Hey Mark and anybody else my name is John in the real world, unless I am in West Virginia then it's Duke. That is another story

baddog -

Your whole post operates under the false assumption that what you or someone else perceives as "good" must be God's will, and what you perceive as "bad" in NOT God's will.

This is a false assumption.

EVERYTHING that happened EVER in human history falls under one of two categories:

1. God's permissive will - that which He permits or allows (with the understanding that Satan is presently in control of this physical world.)

2. God's directive will - that which God DIRECTS, actions He initiates.

As such, the outcome of WW2 was most definitely within God's will. ESLE He wouldn't BE God.

God ain't sittin' on the sideline wonderin' how this is all gonna turn out, ya know.  [:D]

So, you get to redefine words now?  Mark, an atheist is not "someone who doesn't believe in the Christian version of God," it is someone who doesn't believe in ANY supernatural higher power.  By YOUR definition, Hindus are atheists.



Yeah, and LarryG hates you and they're all picking on you...you know, there's a name for this, I think.  Something about a "persecution complex."



Ummm...typing without thinking again Mark?
You SHOULD know my name, since not only did I sign it to the emails in which I replied to you previously, but a version of it is IN MY SCREEN NAME!
(That would be "Rick" in case you're still stumped).
[rolleyes] right backatcha.

He is all powerful and knows how it will end before it begins. He can do anything .

How sad he waits so long to help and then does so little for someone who could do so much more.

God does (and does not do) things that make little sense to me.

But whether or not something makes sense to me is NO WAY to run a universe.

In His own good timing, God will make all things evident. Till then, I take what He HAS shown me, and seeing how good He has done with that, I trust Him for the rest.

Let's just say I aspire to be as perfect as you one day, ALWAYS saying EVERYTHING with perfect clarity and conciseness, NEVER needing to give further explanation on ANYTHING I've EVER said previously.

So, what's it like to be god, Ri(c)k????

[rolleyes]

Good question.

God didn't necesarily like them. We GAVE them the war. God won't / can't  help a nation that GIVES away victory.

We lost cuz Washington was  stupid. Period.

If God had anything further to do with it, I'd sum it up this way -

God prolly couldn't help EITHER nation cause of their spiritual conditions. So He left man to his own devices.

You seemed to want to talk about today, and I got the sense OTHERS were moving away from what you wanted to talk about and go into WW2.

No offense intended. But you could always go get a Mod to lock it.

[:D]

Well, what do you make of that, then?

[img]http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/doug_krueger/buckle.jpg[/img]

Post from Kar98 -

I say that it's a nice collectable! Is it original or a reproduction?

For the larger question, yes, many, many nations have called upon the Name of the Lord in whatever they do.

It doesn't make them right, nor does it mean that God was 'with them.'

Eric The(CourseIWouldn'tDisplayThatBeltBuckleToAnyJewishFriends)Hun[>]:)]

Looks original to me, but it is not part of my collection, nor do I have a similar item in my possession. Unless one would count the Bundeswehr belt and buckle, which look almost the same, except the eagle is encircled by the German words for Unity, Justice, Liberty.



Which makes me a tad leery of anyone who claims to have God on his side and is therefore justified in committing the most heinous acts.



It's not like this would constitute a frequent or otherwise recurring problem for me :)

Just like the guy who put on track shoes when he and his friend were running from a Grizzly (he didn't have to outrun the bear, he just had to outrun his friend) I don't have to be perfect, I just have to be smarter than you.

I just looked at yours and I have never seen more of a clone than this.

Break out the leeches, I'm feeling sick....

I love it when people credit "god" for pure luck or even an engineered environment (false messages,etc...).  Like when a combat vet says, "that mortar shell was a dud, god was looking out for me that day", when in fact, all devices suffer from a certain percentage of defects.  I believe it was 3% in WWII.  You just got really lucky!   Then there's the one where "everyone in the squad but me got killed, god was looking out for me!".  If this is the case, then the converse is also true.  God was NOT looking out for the other members of your squad.  Baloney!  Luck, Luck, Luck,......

Let's face it, people believe what they want, and see what they want to see.  Of course someone who is devoted to his religion, will credit said faith for survival in a difficult spot.  But then again, this same person will lose a child and say "god works in mysterious ways".  (if you have lost a child, I'm very sorry, and only mean to use this as an example.)

All the religious crapola don't mean beans to me.  Only thing I care about a belief in a god is how I can use it enfeeble my enemies.

Arock

Hitler losted because he did stupid things.

Washington lost us Vietnam because they did stupid things

So following the theme you preach god interjected and we lost ?

You say god " couldn't help " that cant be correct he can do anything.

We changed so much as a people from WWII to Vietnam that god turned his back on us. I dont thinks so.

Yes, and many thinks that was the bestest for alls of Europe.

Sorry, a better man than me might have been able to fight the urge...not me

BTW, think what you will of him, but when Ross Perot sent his operations teams into Iran in 1980 to get his men out, Ross specifically excluded religious Baptists from any hot teams.  He realized they were untrustworthy in combat.

Arock

I read your post twice and cant understand it? I am a little slow sometime please break it down in smaller pieces

Clearer now?

Got mittens???   [:D]

Thank you for pointing out my errors. I thought it had something to do with anything.[;D]

Post from Arock -

Yeah, just like that hayseed Bible-thumping turd from Pall Mall, Fentress County, Tennessee, [b]Alvin York[/b]!

What a disappointment he turned out to be!

(for the [u]German[/u] Christians)

And that Bible-believing [b]Audie Murphy[/b] SOB from near Kingston, Texas!

Boy did he ever turn tail and run when the going got tough!

Of course, the foregoing is total BULLSHIT!

But the bigger piece of BULLSHIT is anything that that 'hand grenade with a bad haircut' Ross Perot says about anything military!

I mean, who else would have thought to resign from the US Navy because he suddenly became aware of the obscene language used aboard ships?

Had he never heard the phrase 'cusses like a sailor'?

Eric The(BaptistsMakeSomeOfTheVeryBestSoldiers-InHisArmyOrInOurs!)Hun[>]:)]

And as the blonde goddess Ann Coulter pointed out, the Southeast has produced MUCH of the warrior class throughout this nations history.  The Southeast being largely religious "Baptists."

Ross Perot picked a by-then idiot James Stockdale as his running mate.

Perot also has the voice of a friggen parakeet.

[:D]So what's yer point? [:D]

It is easy to think of many events happening that seem so intermingled that it can't be coincidence. On a spiritual sense the problem I have with that thinking is that if God is manipulating the interactions between humans than that means he let a lot of people die in World War two for what reason? Why didnt he let Hitler die in World War One if he wanted to help us? Once on that trail you can start making more and more claims of "it cant be coincidence?" You get into a predestined exsistence for man. So in fact we have no free will.  
On an intellectual sense you state that God had a hand in helping us in WW2 because we are a good Christian nation and the Germans were a Godless nation and disregard the blunders of Hitler.  Then you state later that we got spanked in Viet Nam because Washington was stupid. Seems like using your logic I could say the Germans lost because of the stupidity of Hitler.

"It was this way thru the entire war."

No not quite.  If that was true why all the bad luck that befell the sailors of the USS Indianapolis, or all the mishaps that happened at Anzio?
Are we like the Israel of the old testement?  I think not. Much of the world thinks of us as self-rightous. Yes we have our evil side as I was reminded yesterday hearing about how after WW2 the United States granted full immunity in exchange for information to the Japanese Officers that ran unit 371 which was responsible for the biological attacks and expirements done to the Chinese.

That when the going gets tough you can't count on a pacifist religion infected man to do his job.

[:D] yourself...

God was in WW2!

Thats why 6 million Jews died.

I see the problem in your logic.

You think religionist = pacifist.

You couldn't be WRONGER.

I can understand your misapprehension, as ALOT of people USE religion as the hammer with which to spread their REAL message - surrender to marxists and bullies.

I don't own all these guns and ammo IN CASE a highpower shooting match should one day happen.

And MY religionist friends are ready to throw down NOW - with  the FIRST marxist or bully that comes along.

Religion infected man, eh??? Aren't you one of the guys who blame MOST of the world conflicts on religion? [}:D]

Truth is, religious people are some of the MOST willing to fight and DIE FOR what they beleive in.

So, if ever it turns out that you are forced to rely on THIS religious person "doing his job" - I'm gonna bring a salt shaker my friend, cuz you'll eat your own words.

You got it wrong again gm.  My problem is with religious new testamenters.

Not the good ol' boy hypocritical baptists we all so love and cherish.  But the ones who actually believe that bravo sierra.  The new testament religious types.

They have a pacifist frame of reference, being from a persecuted religion, and it makes them untrustworthy in the crunch.

I always figured he just sat up in his holy Lazy-Boy, eating shitloads of popcorn, drinking some heavenly suds and saying to himself, "This has to be the greatest fucking war I've ever worked in mysterious ways to create."

I love it!!...

That's a god I could get along with.

Arock

I can't speak for who you have run into in your life.

All i can speak for is me, and a few "new testamenters" friends I have. QUITE A FEW of them presently IN the military, and the rest of us too old, wishing we could still join.

And I'm telling you that you are WRONG about us.

You don't get it. We could EASILY avoid persecution by simply going along to get along. I lost a job once for my Chrsitianity. I could have kept my job  if I just played along. But I REFUSED to. I stood my guns, and paid the price. Two mortgages, car payment, numerous other bills and responsibilities, i was given the choice - play along, or get canned. I got canned. As a DIRECT result of that, I lost $23,000 on the sale of my house. Had to relocate, move my family, leave my friends, and start my life all over.


As such, a true "new tesatamenter" (NOT the hypocrites you say we all know and love - myself I despise those hypocrite phonys) is your BEST ally and warrior you could know - cuz they are used to looking destruction in the face, and charging ahead anyway (even if only in teh spiritual sense.)

It seems to me you have strong feelings on this issue. No doubt you've run into someone (perhaps several someones) who made you feel this way.

Bu that's the problem with generalizations. At MOST, they are only generally true. But more often, falsely made.

Why thank you, Arock.  You know, I am probably going to get an E-ticket straight to hell but what the...well...what the hell?

I just get itchy when I hear these spiels about how God did this but had nothing to do with that, but he is omnipotent and omniscient, but he did that for this reason.

Give me a break.  A little kid gets kidnapped, raped and brutally murdered.  There is no way you can explain to me how any God who "loves all His children", blah, blah, blah, could justify such a thing.  My boss's nephew just graduated from college and was volunteering at the orientation camp for new students.  He was riding on a golf cart, lost his handhold, fell off and hit his head.  He died that night of closed head trauma, or whatever.  What is the reason behind that?  Did God need a new civil engineering intern?  That shit drives me crazy.  

It's bad enough, IMHO, that humans can't let go of the stories and deities that were created to explain the (then) unexplainable.  Then we make it worse by creating mystical ways and methods to make us feel better about the conflicting unexplainable events.  If you take a dump on top of a pile of shit you just get a bigger pile of shit.

I got a plan for us...  We'll do the Emperor Constantine thing.  Wait till we're on our deathbed to "accept christ" and all that.  We get a whole lifetime of fun stuff to do and guess what... Immunity From Prosecution!!

BTW you got any idea how I get my family tickets to the Missouri game at Kyle Field in November?

Arock

IM

And:


[valley girl voice]omigod[/valley girl voice]Gman and ETH agreed on something.  Mark this date.

Well Grandman when this whole nation becomes against God then I will gladly join anybodies rank and file movement to regain it again for one Nation under God indivisible.

 Count me in!     With all the tec he had,and the rocket abilities,not to mention the jet fighters developed by his staff,he was a Godless and a God condemned man.  I could have taken my 12th grade edd and used Stalin as an allie and ruled the war and world!

  So you see God has pity on fools and drunks!

 Shouldn't we learn from this folly?

 Hope so,  God now that's my huckleberry,say when!

 Bob   [8D]