So it looks like GD missed this . . . Fourth Circuit says "illegal aliens can't own guns"

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - So it looks like GD missed this . . . Fourth Circuit says "illegal aliens can't own guns" (Page 1 of 4)

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:39:18 PM EDT

http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Published/115063.P.pdf

I'm a little torn. On the one paw, they're in the U.S. illegally. On the other paw, the right to self-defense doesn't have any geographic boundaries, and guns are an integral part of self-defense.

The Fourth Circuit also insists that "intermediate scrutiny" is the proper standard at the start, then says "we evaluate this law under rational basis". What the fuck? How do you switch from one to the other in the middle of a decision?

ETA 12/29:
I guess I'm surprised at GD. I don't like illegals being in the U.S. any more than most of you, but what the 4th Circuit is doing is, more than anything else, simply calculated to undermine our 2A rights -- doesn't matter what the gun law is, they'll try to uphold it to weaken our position. If only for the political calculation, I would have expected more people to realize how bad of a decision it is in general.

But beyond that, the more I think about it, the more I think that it's a bad decision. Most illegals are just here to make some money and support their families. An "otherwise law-abiding" person shouldn't be denied his right to effective self-defense any more than a pot smoker or a habitual speeder -- as G. Gordon Liddy always liked to distinguish, those are "malum prohibitum" laws being broken, not "malum in se" laws like murder or robbery.

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:42:18 PM EDT

[#1]

They're not US citizens. They're here illegally. By law, they're criminals. Criminals shouldn't own guns. Just my take.

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:43:00 PM EDT

[#2]

If they are in danger, they should run and hide

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:43:08 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Published/115063.P.pdf

I'm a little torn. On the one paw, they're in the U.S. illegally. On the other paw, the right to self-defense doesn't have any geographic boundaries, and guns are an integral part of self-defense.

The Fourth Circuit also insists that "intermediate scrutiny" is the proper standard at the start, then says "we evaluate this law under rational basis". What the fuck? How do you switch from one to the other in the middle of a decision?

They are not Americans. We are not the world police it's sad that other countries don't value their citizens well being but they should not be here illegally and we have no right to strong arm other countries to follow our laws.

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:43:29 PM EDT

[#4]

Our second amendment (or any other amendment) doesn't apply to an illegal.

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:43:30 PM EDT

[#5]

They are criminals. Tell you what, you sneak into another country and see if it's ok that you posess guns.

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:43:58 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
We are not the world police it's sad that other countries don't value their citizens well being but they should not be here illegally and we have no right to strong arm other countries to follow our laws.

Umm . . . what??

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:44:07 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
They're not US citizens. They're here illegally. By law, they're criminals. Criminals shouldn't own guns. Just my take.

First post knocks it out of the park

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:45:23 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
They're not US citizens. They're here illegally. By law, they're criminals. Criminals shouldn't own guns. Just my take.

This.

Fuck em.

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:45:24 PM EDT

[#9]

I believe that the right to bear arms, right to freedom of speech, right to freedom of association, etc. are universal human rights.
I believe that they should have those rights in their home countries and I believe they should get the fuck out of mine.

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:45:24 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
They're not US citizens. They're here illegally. By law, they're criminals. Criminals shouldn't own guns. Just my take.

First post knocks it out of the park

Hope you guys never drive into NY/NJ. Better not take your guns if you do. I hope nobody decides to rob you or rape you while you're there.

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:45:29 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
They are criminals. Tell you what, you sneak into another country and see if it's ok that you posess guns.

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:46:00 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Published/115063.P.pdf

I'm a little torn. On the one paw, they're in the U.S. illegally. On the other paw, the right to self-defense doesn't have any geographic boundaries, and guns are an integral part of self-defense.

The Fourth Circuit also insists that "intermediate scrutiny" is the proper standard at the start, then says "we evaluate this law under rational basis". What the fuck? How do you switch from one to the other in the middle of a decision?

GET OUT!

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:47:48 PM EDT

[#13]

It'll be fun watching Sotomayer's head explode as she tries to come to terms with this one. "Ban guns . . . but let my people own them!"

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:48:32 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Published/115063.P.pdf

I'm a little torn. On the one paw, they're in the U.S. illegally. On the other paw, the right to self-defense doesn't have any geographic boundaries, and guns are an integral part of self-defense.

The Fourth Circuit also insists that "intermediate scrutiny" is the proper standard at the start, then says "we evaluate this law under rational basis". What the fuck? How do you switch from one to the other in the middle of a decision?

GET OUT!

I *am* out.

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:49:10 PM EDT

[#15]

they wouldn't need to defend themselves here if they weren't here.

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:50:55 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

I believe that the right to bear arms, right to freedom of speech, right to freedom of association, etc. are universal human rights.
I believe that they should have those rights in their home countries and I believe they should get the fuck out of mine.

ElectricSheep556 in with the sigline quality stuff again.

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:51:37 PM EDT

[#17]

Their PRESENCE in the US makes them criminals. Criminal trespass on federal property is a FELONY.

All the US border is federal property.

Thus, any that crossed the border illegally have trespassed on federal property and are felons.

Felons can't own guns.

All they need is a conviction. And a year at hard labor before being biometrically identified and thrown back over the border

with a very sincere warning not to attempt to return to the USA under penalty of death.

No, I'm not kidding.

Posted: 12/25/2012 8:53:30 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Our second amendment (or any other amendment) doesn't apply to an illegal.

I don't know about this...the Constitution does not grant us rights...it recognises rights. These rights are granted by God or as a birth right not something the Government can give you.

So I am torn on this as well.

I say deport their ass but having a gun should not be a crime.

Edit: Also where do they stand on the 4th, 5th, 6th, etc...in regards to illegal aliens?

The more I think about this after reading some of the bill of rights the more I disagree with the ruling. These rights were intended to apply to all those within the confines of American territory. Except when these rights can be legally suspended (war, martial law, etc..)

Posted: 12/25/2012 9:02:56 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Their PRESENCE in the US makes them criminals. Criminal trespass on federal property is a FELONY.
All the US border is federal property.

Thus, any that crossed the border illegally have trespassed on federal property and are felons.

Felons can't own guns.

All they need is a conviction. And a year at hard labor before being biometrically identified and thrown back over the border
with a very sincere warning not to attempt to return to the USA under penalty of death.

No, I'm not kidding.

Wow.

I know you like My Little Ponies and all, but after what you just wrote I'm willing to overlook that, and I'd like for you to be the POTUS.

Think it over.

Posted: 12/25/2012 9:04:02 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

ElectricSheep556 in with the sigline quality stuff again.

It's all about being succinct and the proper application of fucks.

Posted: 12/25/2012 9:08:42 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Their PRESENCE in the US makes them criminals. Criminal trespass on federal property is a FELONY.
All the US border is federal property.

Thus, any that crossed the border illegally have trespassed on federal property and are felons.

Felons can't own guns.

All they need is a conviction. And a year at hard labor before being biometrically identified and thrown back over the border
with a very sincere warning not to attempt to return to the USA under penalty of death.

No, I'm not kidding.

No, they are not felons until tried in a court of law. So assuming no prior felonies they would not have been felons in possession of a firearm. They could catch an additional charge of possession of a firearm in the commission of a felony.

Sorry you can't arbitrarily assign convictions without due process. Tedious and bureaucratic yes....but necessary.

As for what happens to them after a conviction for attempting to enter the country illegally I like the way you think.

Posted: 12/25/2012 9:09:34 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Their PRESENCE in the US makes them criminals. Criminal trespass on federal property is a FELONY.
All the US border is federal property.

Thus, any that crossed the border illegally have trespassed on federal property and are felons.

Felons can't own guns.

All they need is a conviction. And a year at hard labor before being biometrically identified and thrown back over the border
with a very sincere warning not to attempt to return to the USA under penalty of death.

No, I'm not kidding.

Bar code for tracking by drone, or RFID chip for detection by towers along the border?

Posted: 12/25/2012 9:10:48 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Our second amendment (or any other amendment) doesn't apply to an illegal.

THIS

Posted: 12/25/2012 9:19:31 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Our second amendment (or any other amendment) doesn't apply to an illegal.

THIS

Again I'm not sure about this...think about what the Constitution does. It recognises rights people are born with. It does not grant rights. Due process is not suspended for illegal's neither is the 4th amendment.

Posted: 12/25/2012 9:27:04 PM EDT

[#25]

Except when these rights can be legally suspended (war, martial law, etc..)

Bullshit. There are exactly zero times that our rights should be suspended.

Posted: 12/25/2012 9:30:36 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

I believe that the right to bear arms, right to freedom of speech, right to freedom of association, etc. are universal human rights.
I believe that they should have those rights in their home countries and I believe they should get the fuck out of mine.

This 100% - rights are universal and everyone is born with them.

Posted: 12/25/2012 9:33:03 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Except when these rights can be legally suspended (war, martial law, etc..)

Bullshit. There are exactly zero times that our rights should be suspended.

I am glad you caught that. lol...people seem to think it is ok for illegal's to have their rights suspended, why don't they count? Everyone here needs to reread what a constitutional right is.
Your citizenship has no bearing on basic rights of men, the constitution does not grant these but recognises them.

I agree with you, our rights should never be suspened, but that is not reality.

Posted: 12/25/2012 10:26:02 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
They're not US citizens. They're here illegally. By law, they're criminals. Criminals shouldn't own guns. Just my take.

This plus they are foreign nationals still under the control and jurisdiction of their country of origin. Which is probably a turd world socialist shit hole FWIW.

If they are on a student or tourist or work visa, and are not a felon, and their home country supports our 2A, then by all means they should be allowed to have firearms here.

Posted: 12/25/2012 10:28:49 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Published/115063.P.pdf

I'm a little torn. On the one paw, they're in the U.S. illegally. On the other paw, the right to self-defense doesn't have any geographic boundaries, and guns are an integral part of self-defense.

The Fourth Circuit also insists that "intermediate scrutiny" is the proper standard at the start, then says "we evaluate this law under rational basis". What the fuck? How do you switch from one to the other in the middle of a decision?

Yeah, I don't agree with it. But even if one's right was revoked automatically by allegedly entering illegally, the national government is not given the power to prohibit any class of persons from owning or possessing something.

Posted: 12/25/2012 10:30:20 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
I believe that the right to bear arms, right to freedom of speech, right to freedom of association, etc. are universal human rights.

I believe that they should have those rights in their home countries and I believe they should get the fuck out of mine.

This.

Posted: 12/25/2012 10:33:37 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Our second amendment (or any other amendment) doesn't apply to an illegal.

Not true. Except where citizens are specified, rights of persons are protected. Under that logic, we can deny any non-citizen, legal or not, due process of law nand throw them in jail for whatever we want, whether or not they did anything criminal. Of course, many here will argue exactly that if the person (and sometimes even a citizen) is alleged to have committed certain crimes.

Posted: 12/25/2012 10:43:39 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Our second amendment (or any other amendment) doesn't apply to an illegal.

Not true. Except where citizens are specified, rights of persons are protected. Under that logic, we can deny any non-citizen, legal or not, due process of law nand throw them in jail for whatever we want, whether or not they did anything criminal. Of course, many here will argue exactly that if the person (and sometimes even a citizen) is alleged to have committed certain crimes.

Your sigline ...

The finest opportunity ever given to the world was thrown away because the passion for equality made vain the hope for freedom.

-Lord Acton

Posted: 12/25/2012 10:49:54 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
If they are in danger, they should run and hide

No, call the police, like we're supposed to.

Posted: 12/25/2012 10:51:33 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
They are criminals. Tell you what, you sneak into another country and see if it's ok that you posess guns.

Better yet, just try sneaking into another country and let us know how that works out.

Posted: 12/25/2012 11:02:59 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
They're not US citizens. They're here illegally. By law, they're criminals. Criminals shouldn't own guns. Just my take.

ditto

Posted: 12/25/2012 11:04:15 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
I believe that the right to bear arms, right to freedom of speech, right to freedom of association, etc. are universal human rights.

I believe that they should have those rights in their home countries and I believe they should get the fuck out of mine.

yes.

Posted: 12/25/2012 11:17:14 PM EDT

[#37]

I'm sure Obama will get right on that.

Posted: 12/25/2012 11:28:41 PM EDT

[#38]

Carry a gun in Mexico and let me know how that works out for ya...

Posted: 12/25/2012 11:33:42 PM EDT

[#39]

What part of "shall not be infringed" didn't they understand?

Sorry, wrong thread.

John

Posted: 12/25/2012 11:37:04 PM EDT

[#40]

I do find it interesting that illegals DO have a right to free healthcare, education, and social benefits, but not gun ownership.

John

Posted: 12/25/2012 11:44:50 PM EDT

[#41]

it's not that they should not have firearms... it's that they should not remain free within these borders.

Posted: 12/26/2012 12:03:22 AM EDT

[#42]

All human beings have the inherent right of self defense. When the constitution was written, it was written to reflect all mankind, not just Americans.

Posted: 12/26/2012 12:27:25 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
I do find it interesting that illegals DO have a right to free healthcare, education, and social benefits, but not gun ownership.

John

I don't think they have a right to free shit, either.

I think that every sane, law-abiding citizen in every nation has a right to keep and bear arms. But don't break the law to illegally enter America and then expect the same rights as non-criminal citizens.

Posted: 12/26/2012 12:43:26 AM EDT

[#44]

Just more laws that will be selectively enforced only when they feel like it.

Posted: 12/26/2012 1:07:27 AM EDT

[#45]

Hate to break it to you...they are breaking the law.

Posted: 12/26/2012 1:45:09 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
They're not US citizens. They're here illegally. By law, they're criminals. Criminals shouldn't own guns. Just my take.

Posted: 12/26/2012 1:48:10 AM EDT

[#47]

Eric Holder just gives them to them as they're deported.

Posted: 12/26/2012 1:50:42 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
I believe that the right to bear arms, right to freedom of speech, right to freedom of association, etc. are universal human rights.

I believe that they should have those rights in their home countries and I believe they should get the fuck out of mine.

By that logic, felons should be able to bear arms too...