[url]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28562[/url]

                           "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I
                           would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art
                           lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of
                           my mouth."
                           – Revelation 3:15-16 KJV

                           Most Americans call themselves Christians.

                           Twice they chose as their supreme leader Bill Clinton –
                           a sexual predator and pathological liar who regarded
                           the "religious right" as enemies and radical
                           homosexuals as friends, and who by any meaningful
                           and historical measure was a traitor.

                           After that, millions of Christians came within a hair's
                           breadth of electing Clinton's partner in crime, Al Gore
                           – another pathological liar, a radical environmentalist
                           who reveres "Gaia" but believes the
                           internal-combustion engine should be outlawed
                           (according to his book, "Earth in the Balance").

                           Christians have stood on the sidelines during the
                           breathtaking transformation of their once-great
                           Judeo-Christian culture into today's neo-pagan,
                           Sodom-and-Gomorrah-style freak show.

                           Christians have lost the 30-year war to protect the
                           unborn. Even easy victories – like partial-birth
                           abortion, which virtually everyone opposes – have
                           eluded them.
...............More

Yep. and why is that?? Look to the leaders of the "church", and those churchs who choose the sovereignty of the state over G*d.... Christians who get permission, (license), from the state to marry. "Churchs" who get permission, (IRS 501 3c status), from govt. to open their doors. Apostacy?? You betcha!!

Maybe alot of people who call themselves "Christians" are not really Chrsitians.



Another contributing factor is the actions of those who DO meet the standards set above - those who possess the Chrsit they profess. (Matt 7)

In a recent book, Cal Thomas noted the mistake Christians made during the Reagan years in trying to cozy up to those in political power, and use political power to achieve "spiritual" objectives.

As Thomas noted, invariably Christians watered down their message, so as not to limit their access to those in political power.

Thomas' words have immense credibility as he notes HIMSELF as one of those who made that mistake (but he had learned the folly of his ways)

The proper relationship between Christians and those in political power can be noted in the story of John the Baptist. Hint: John's strong stand cost him BIG TIME.

Thankfully, I grew up in Texas in the 1950s and 60s.

Christianity was alive and well in my home town.

It has nothing to do with the State's involvement with the church. Even the Lord Himself recognized that we should [red][b]'Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.'[/b][/red] Matthew 22:21.

So filling out forms required by Caesar did not bring us to the place we are.

We did.

Proseperity and security have convinced most, I would imagine, that there is no real need to have a Supreme Being messing around in your life with an interminable list of 'Do's and Don'ts'!

'If it feels good do it' is the correct motto that should be placed upon our currency, for not many 'In God we trust' any longer.

So tell me, where in the Bible does it say that a great nation cannot backslide and lose it's way. Where does it say that the mighty cannot fall, or the great perish?

I do know that it says this:

[b]Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.[/b] Proverbs 14:34

Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]

In regards to the aforementioned political figures, I think the kind of "Christians" who voted for them as more interested in the dole, or the passing of political agendas, etc., than they are in maintaining their spiritual integrity. Those "Christians" who argue it's okay for Monica to blow Bill because the economy is doing well are not really Christians at all. Like the article said, there is no free ride. If you don't live like a Christian how can you expect to reap the benefits of Christianity?

I think people forget Christianity is a way of life, not just a box you check on the US census form every 10 years.

Are Churchs Profit (as in jesus) Centers in the faith way or are they profit (as in cash)centers in the bottom line way.

I see alot of money going in and a trickel coming out.Unless it is the form of some kind of wrongful act law suit. Then they have some big pay outs.It seems sunday is the only work day for our church leaders unless it is a grass roots type effort.

It does when it acknowledges the sovreignty of the state over that of G*d. Like some others on this subject, you twist the meaning of the words. Jesus is talking about something produced by Caesar, (the coins), and says "give to Caesar that which is his". Remember, they were trying to ensnare Jesus! When mans law is in opposition to G*ds which do you follow?? By submitting to govt. regulation, and getting "permission" from govt to open it's doors, the church is acknowledging the supremacy of the state. By getting a "marriage license", we acknowledge the supremacy of the state in G*ds MOST SACRED human relationship. AND, as an attorney, you know that we also make the state a legal "party" to that relationship, thus giving the state ultimate control over that which rightfully belongs to G*D.



Yes, by rendering unto the state that which is G*ds. A house divided against itself cannot stand....



No where, we have surrendered ourselves, and our G*D-given liberty to the state. If a nation can backslide, so can the "saved" and become the "unsaved". That is why we see the shape our nation is in... It's called "Judgement".



YEP....

I won't say that I completely disagree, but I don't think that 'stood on the sidelines' is correct. There are many good Christians who have fought tooth and nail against the onslaught occuring within our culture....but they've had their own battles to fight as well.



Not entirely true. Many studies and polls show, though granted it is only the aspect of Christianity I am most familiar with, that between 50 and 60 percent of Catholics support abortion. Hard to present a united front with numbers like that. Ever hear of the absolute apostacy of Catholics for Free Choice, or Voice of the Faithful? CFFC was started by Planned Parenthood for the purpose of undermining/reforming the church regarding it's stance on abortion. VotF was started as a group to give a voice to those who disagreed with the church methods in handling the abuse scandals.....but when you look into their actual meetings, you see they want the people to have control of the church, women's ordination, and support for abortion. I'm sure it's similar with other denominations. It's hard to fight a battle on a large scale when you're already fighting the same conflict within yourself..

Education.

Currently, my church is interested in buying up more land surrounding it, even as facilities already built go unused, and it doesn't matter that almost half the congregation is currently unemployed.  "Give until it hurts, then give some more!"  I get quarterly statements showing how much I've given, which are never right because I normally just put cash in the collection plate, and ask to make sure it's correct if it's a low number, and asking if they can count on me to give more so they can cover their expenses.  Now, I'm all for charity, and I tithe as much as I can when I'm sturggling financially, but when my church spends money on unnecessary things and then wants me to give more money so they can buy the necessities, even while almost half of the congregation is unemployed, I consider that rude and irresponsible.

Even if we did buy the land, it ultimately belongs to the United Methodist Church, a seething pool of socialism which I can no longer stand, so if our churck broke with the UMC they would legally own all the property.  Then again, breaking from the UMC is not likely to happen.  The UMC has become like Amway.  The more money you bring into the organization, the better your next assignment and living conditions will be, as they move around every few years it seems.  Do poorly, and you preach in some small town in the middle of BFE with a couple dozen members and a shack to live in.

I drove by the Baptist Church I grew up in as a boy, and I noticed that they are no longer affiliated with any Baptist Organization, yet the same preacher is still manning the pulpit after all these years, while my wife has gone through at least 3 ministers in the time she's gone to her church, which is most of yer life.

Year before last, they brought in [b]consultants[/b] to figure out which direction the church needed to take!  I thought the direction was towards God!  Yet we have volunteers who escourt women at abortion clinics and this is tolerated!

Needless to say, I quit attending church a long time ago.  The sad fact is that the Methodists don't even believe in Christianity anymore, and the more conservative sects tend to be mean spirited, judgemental, and backbiting.  So, I'll read my Bible and related texts until I find a church that is more in tune with what I need and believe as a Christian.

Sorry for the rambling, it's about time for me to get some sleep...

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

At least heaven wont be as crowded for those of use who do make it.

BrenLover

Amen!  [;)]

Post from liberty86 -

Whose words? Jesus' words? I think not!

What most folks do not consider, is what Jesus didn't say in that quoted passage, but what was left to His followers to supply for themselves.

The coin 'belongs' to Caesar simply because his image appears upon it, he created it, and he created it under his own authority.

What Jesus did not say, but what He meant to convey by this passage, was that man 'belongs' to God, for we were created in His image, He created us, and He created us under His own authority.

I wouldn't have remembered the passage, had I not remembered the context. Please!

Hmm, let's see...

There is simply no requirement that you get a license to open a church! There is no requirement that you obtain permission from the State to conduct any church services you may wish to conduct.

If you wish to build a building in which to conduct your Christian worship services, then you must comply with all proper building code restrictions and codes.

If you wish to have your member's tithes and gifts rendered tax exempt from the IRS, then you must comply with the IRS code for being an exempt entity.

There is nothing in God's laws, or in the teachings of Jesus, that dispense with complying with State laws, ordinances, and codes, that are not in direct conflict with His Word.

Insofar as marriage is concerned, Louisiana and Texas law (the only ones with which I am familiar) are very clear on the subject - if a man and woman are married in a religious ceremony, even if they have no 'license' to marry, even if the preacher, priest, rabbi, immam that married them is not licensed, they are just as 'married' as if they had been married by a Civil Judge, or a municipal officer, in a Courtroom of the State!

Licensing is only a matter of memorializing the marriage ceremony. Of recording it for posterity. Not in establishing the marriage!

But, [b]liberty86[/b], George Washington and Martha Custis were married in a ceremony that was done under a license from the State! How could the Christian Father of Our Country been so bamboozled?

See above.

Can the State sue for divorce? Can the State prevent the man and woman living together as husband and wife? Can the State sue for custody of any children the 'unauthorized' marriage produces?

Nope. Nope. Nope.

Let's not get out on a limb here. Jesus paid the Temple Tax, although He was the Lord and Creator of All that was created.

Don't use His words to escape what He Himself did!

Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]

Godbless, you tith to a church like this?? Volunteers at abortion clinics?? Do not wonder that you are "struggling financially". You are contributing to the enemies of G*d.... He will not "honor" your sacrifice in tithing.

I haven't tithed there in at least four months, but tithing in my mind does not just include what I give directly to the church.  It includes everything I give to charity in God's name in time, money, and other donations.  I certainly don't tithe 10% of my income to the church because of what they support, and my tithes have diminished since I found out their stance on gun control last year.  The one thing that did keep me going back since last year was my father-in-laws words saying that likely there is no perfect church and you could spend forever trying to find one, but that argument has worn thin.  Of course, he's a bit more stubborn than I am, and has been trying his damnedest to get them to realize the errors of their ways, but I think he has finally realized it's futile.

So no, I do not tithe to the church anymore, nor do I even attend.  And I shouldn't paint all Methodists as socialist scum, as there is a movement among them to get back to where they belong; back with God.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

It is easy to say "I am a Christian," a little harder to be and act like one. That is why Christians are losing America.

Post from mattja -

Excellent thoughts, [b]mattja![/b]

As the Lord Himself puts it:

[b]Matthew 19:17[/b]

And he said unto him, [red][b]Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: [u]but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments[/u][/b].[/red]

[b]Luke 6:46[/b]

[red][b]And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?[/b][/red]

[b]John 14:15[/b]

[red][b]If ye love me, keep my commandments.[/b][/red]

[b]John 14:21[/b]

[red][b]He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.[/b][/red]

[b]John 15:10[/b]

[red][b][u]If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love[/u]; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.[/b][/red]

From these blessed sayings of Our Lord, we are to understand the absolute necessity of keeping His Word, His laws, His commandments.

To think otherwise is to be fooled with the same grievous error as the Pharisees of Jesus' day, who believed that simply because they were the Children of Abraham, they would be saved!

Now how does that differ in any respect, from those Christians [u]today[/u] who maintain that simply be declaring themselves to be Christians, they will be saved?

It doesn't! Such thinking was the very 'leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees' that Jesus warned His church to beware of and avoid!

A little of that leaven has crept into some churches, has it not?

Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]

My thought precisely, but with this twist:

If the [i]MAJORITY[/i] of people I have known who claim to be Christian are the ones going to heaven, I wouldn't [i]want[/i] to go.  I wouldn't want them as neighbors [i]now[/i], much less throughout eternity.

Just MHO.

Post from KBaker -

Seems as if you have met some very sorry folks who are parading around as Christians.

I'll let you in an a little secret. If you are not absolutely overjoyed at being at a church service, singing hymns, praising the Lord, giving testimonies and witnessing, making prayers, and fellowshipping with others of like mind....

[b]Well, I am absolutely certain that you would not enjoy Heaven anyway![/b]

So don't give it another thought! [:D]

If you, or anyone else, believes that Heaven means that you're driving in a Ferrari with Britney Spears tucked up under your arm, heading into majestic mountain vistas, through verdant valleys, and languishing on a beach, you are sadly, sadly mistaken.

Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]

The state can and has done all of the above except sue for divorce.



Jesus paid the temple tax, the equivalent of todays tithe. He also paid the poll tax, as in your Matthew quote. HE DID NOT advocate obiedience to law contrary to G*ds... Like I said, the church submitting to the IRS is contrary to it's assigned mission, and the marriage license is state jurisdiction in a relationship that is G*ds alone.

I gotta agree, but the quote below should comfort all of us;
[b]John 14:2  In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.[/b]

This tells me there's plenty of room at the inn!!! FOR ALL OF US!

Eric,

History of Marriage Licenses in America

George Washington was married without a marriage license. Abraham Lincoln was married without a marriage license. So, how did we come to this place in America where marriage licenses are issued?

Historically, all the states in America had laws outlawing the marriage of blacks and whites. In the mid-1800’s, certain states began allowing interracial marriages or miscegenation as long as those marrying received a license from the state. In other words they had to receive permission to do an act which without such permission would have been illegal.

Blacks Law Dictionary points to this historical fact when it defines "marriage license" as, "A license or permission granted by public authority to persons who intend to intermarry." "Intermarry" is defined in Black’s Law Dictionary as, "Miscegenation; mixed or interracial marriages."

Give the State an inch and they will take a 100 miles (or as one elderly woman once said to me "10,000 miles.") Not long after these licenses were issued, some states began requiring all people who marry to obtain a marriage license. In 1923, the Federal Government established the Uniform Marriage and Marriage License Act (they later established the Uniform Marriage and Divorce Act). By 1929, every state in the Union had adopted marriage license laws.

What Should We Do?

Christian couples should not be marrying with State marriage licenses, nor should ministers be marrying people with State marriage licenses. Some have said to me, "If someone is married without a marriage license, then they aren’t really married." Given the fact that states may soon legalize same-sex marriages, we need to ask ourselves, "If a man and a man marry with a State marriage license, and a man and woman marry without a State marriage license - who’s really married? Is it the two men with a marriage license, or the man and woman without a marriage license? In reality, this contention that people are not really married unless they obtain a marriage license simply reveals how Statist we are in our thinking. We need to think biblically.

You should not have to obtain a license from the State to marry someone anymore than you should have to obtain a license from the State to be a parent, which some in academic and legislative circles are currently pushing to be made law.

Jeepers! [b]liberty86[/b] do you have a birth certificate? Do your parents? Do any of your children?

Does that mean that they do not belong to God, but to the State?

If a birth certificate cannot be found for you, your parents, or any children, does that mean that y'all don't exist?

Can your name not then be found in the Book of Life at the End of the Age?

Think, Man, before you write! It will save us a great deal of useless discussion!

Eric The(Astounded)Hun[>]:)]

Duncan, my parents were never married, yet as far as every state and federal government agency was concerned they were.  My mom took his name, birthed his final two children, and was effectively his wife until he died.  No licenses of any kind.  My mom's view was that when my dad asked that was the equivalent of being married before God, and my wife and I feel the same way even though we were married in a church.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

I need to know the answer to this, cuz I got a pair of scissors rip roaring to cut up my Social Security card, so I can "disappear" from the gov't.

[:D]

Thanks for taking that load off my mind, Eric!  I won't!Really?  I thought you were supposed to get to fvck a bunch of virgins?  Have I been cruelly mislead?  [b]I'LL SUE![/b][8D]

Post from KBaker -

Yes, really. And concerning those virgins? It may be that the folks you don't particularly like are not Christians at all!

Nowhere in our beliefs is there any mention of any virgins that you receive when you get to Heaven!

Or you certain that you're not thinking of Islam, where such may be a belief?

Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]

GodBlessTexas, leave that church. Find a church that sets itself on God's Word.

I have said this before and I shall say it again.  America needs to get off its christian high horse.



Freak show, you have got to be kidding me.  The country doesn't run on christian values buddy.  There are other religions in the country.  I feel the relgious right is a threat to my own well being.  christian this, christian that, that which doesn't conform with christianity is wrong.  BULLSHIT.

The religious right in this country is giving christianity a superiority complex.  People are simply not tolerant enough.  

And all of this, coming from a christian (well, in my past life at least.)

[b]Quoted:

I gotta agree, but the quote below should comfort all of us;
[b]John 14:2  In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.[/b]

This tells me there's plenty of room at the inn!!! FOR ALL OF US!
[/b]

Amen!

Try as I may, I'm not the perfect Christian.
Christians are not immune to falling prey to
daily temptations.

As a matter of fact, I believe
I've  been tempted far more since giving my
life to Christ than before I was saved.

I go out of my way not to wear clothing, hats,
etc with Christian signs or logos out of fear of
saying or doing something in the heat of the
moment resulting in a bad reflection on my faith.

CHRISTIANS HAVE BAD DAYS TOO!

I do however, TRY to walk the walk. Yes, I fall
down on a regular basis, but God has not
abandoned me for my efforts. Quite the contrary,
I've been blessed beyond belief.

No matter how bad my day may seem or worse, how
I react to that particularly bad day, I know my
Father loves me and he has a special place for
me in His Kingdom.

- G1X

Hey Eric!! George Washington was a Freemason, not a "Christian". While im not anit-mason, i could never say that the two are compatible. There would be to many conflicts in Philosophy and theology. Masonic history is rife with Pagan symbolism whether in rites or oaths of loyalty. One cannot serve two masters spiritually.

Basically all diety's are represented in Freemasonry. God commands his followers NOT to put any other diety before him. Much less give credence to any of them. God is a jealous diety.


I guess i will now catch all the "Freemasonry is not a relgion" and "im both a Freemason and a Christian you moron" comments. Like i care.

While Freemasonry is not a "relgion" per say, it does have temples and rites. Temples built to what? rites for whom? Its just a little more then a club dont you think?

As far as being both a Freemason and a Christian. So what! people even mix Withcraft and Christianity. White magic its called. Nothing wrong with being delusional i guess.


lib who is now donning his nomex suit.

... "anymore".

And THAT'S the problem with America!

How many of these commonplace attitudes in America are "Christian" principles:

* If it feels good do it.
* Scumbag criminals are really victims.
* Heather has two mommies - and it's better that way.
* Marriage is slavery.
* The nation was founded by old, greedy, evil, white, slaveholding men.
* All heterosexual intercourse is rape.
* There is no evil in the world.
* There is no right and wrong.
* There is honor in being on welfare.
* The rectum is a sex organ.
* You're not responsible for your actions.
* If you have more money than the poor, you stole if from them.
* Condoms and transexuals belong in school, God and guns are banned.
* Boys should act more feminine.
* Your children are not gifts from God, they're Gov't property.

and of course the best one...
* It's my body so I can kill that baby if I want to.

Jeepers, [b]Libertoon[/b]! Where did you pick up that cockamamie idea that being in the Masons was incompatible with First Century Christianty?

Do not malign either our Founding Father, or my brother, so!

[img]http://www.americanheritage.org/prayeratvalleyforgesm.jpg[/img]

You needed to go to school when I went to school, they didn''t teach anti-Christian crap back in my day!

(They would have been run out of town on a rail!)

Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]

[img]http://www.churchofsonomacounty.org/images/rockwell.jpg[/img]

"Our Heritage" (1950, by Norman Rockwell)
Rockwell portrayed "duty to God" and
"duty to country" in this painting by showing
a Cub Scout and his den chief studying a
portrait of George Washington praying at
Valley forge, Pennsylvania. Washington
was featured in the painting to commemorate
his historic winter there in 1777-78.

Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]

And for the short version, we, (Christians), are losing this country because it is far simpler to do as one wishes, than it is to live a Christian life.

[red][b]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and [u]many[/u] there be which go in thereat:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and [u]few[/u] there be that find it.[/b][/red] Matthew 7:13,14

Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]

i would never have anything to do with a jealous god. what a let down to find out the almighty has the emotional maturity of a thirteen year old girl. sucks for some of youz.

once the norman rockwell comes out, you know it's time to throw in the towel.

Christians, THIS IS NOT YOUR COUNTRY TO LOSE.

Yes!  Look how much better civilization is now that we're all educated....

oh wait....

You really are a fool if you think education = non-Christian.  According to my GPA, my course load, and every standardized test I've ever taken, I'm better educated or more intelligent then 99% of the world's population.  God and I get along just fine.  Ever hear of C.S. Lewis, Sir Isaac Newton, J.R.R. Tolkien, nearly any of the nation's founders...  I would bet their education and their contributions to society against yours any day of the week.  And yet, those idiots believed in God.  Fool.



Thanks for the article, 9divdoc.  It was interesting, even if our self-proclaimed intellectual elite, canadian friends don't agree.

Actually, that's true.

THIS is NOT our world, either. It belongs to Satan.

I'm guessing stormbringer didn't mean it that way, zonan.

IMO 'education' means that we should be educating the sheeple instead of bitching at/about them.  Show 'em some truth and let 'em decide.

    Well I got back from France, and when I hit these boards again, one of the first threads I see is by 9DIVDOC.  While I was not going to reply, especially with me being so relaxed and easy going after 12 days in France, but, seeing that a missionary's work is never dont, I have decided to chime in:

Gunner1X wrote:

"As a matter of fact, I believe
I've been tempted far more since giving my
life to Christ than before I was saved"

9DivDoc Wrote (or quoted from elsewhere):

"Christians have stood on the sidelines during the breathtaking transformation of their once-great Judeo-Christian culture into today's neo-pagan,Sodom-and-Gomorrah-style freak show"

Judeo-Christian LOL, Another Bible beater who has yet to learn the absolute falshood of that statement.

Boh oh Boy, you two are the televangelist tag team.  You should join the WWF as the Dynamic Duo - "saving the human race with a smiling, preaching face"  

A fully grown man prancing around telling us all he has been saved.  I got news for you bud, drop that attitude.  That puts you on a line with a kindergardener in terms of the development of your religious life.  I hope you tell God if you meet him that 'you were saved' I would love to see the look on his face.  Your ilk however are endemic in American life, please read further to understand where I am going with this.


9DivDoc will read the Bible 24/7, however since his Pastor does not give him some Bible study on the topic, he will never learn that there is a difference between an Israelite and a Jew, whether now, or 2000 years ago.

90% of the problem with history is word pollution, and the other 90% of the problem is that the popular view of history is absolutely not supported by any documentary or other relatively hard evidence.  So Called American Christian Wanker denominations exhbit the textbook example of these errors.

1)  "The founding fathers were all devout Christians" - ABSOLUTELY wrong.  They were primarily deists, or agnostics, and cared far more about the practice of masonry a/k/a "the Craft" than actual Christian or Catholic piety.  While a French convent of Catholic nuns (the only real type)was good enough to educate our founding father's daughters, God forbid they should convert and become nuns.

2)  Furthermore, loyalty oaths to the state, or to the nation were RIFE throughout colonial america.  Portions of the Declaration of Independence were used as loyalty oaths for our citizens.  Maybe this is why more people fled the 13 colonies during the American Revolution THAN fled France during the French Revolution even with the terrors and the guillotine.

3)  The Federal and State governments funded the construction of chruches up until the 1870's or so.  Yes, the real way to read the establishment clause is that no religion would be established by law, (this was a direct reaction to the Protestant reformation in England) however this did not bar official state recognition or funding of religion.  FYI, New York State had two official religions, English Episcopal, and one Dutch church I can not remember.  

To be continued . . .  

   

I am gonna have to go with Mr Greens here.

While it may or may not be true that this country has a predominantly Judeo-Christian heritage the Nations framing documents seem to quite explicitly, by lack of any mention of God save one reference to 'Natures God' in a  preamble, indicate any theological preference.

We are a nation based in Common Law.

This is a nation of freedom.  Freedom to be Christian, Jew, Atheist or Pagan or Blue (and frankly few people know anything about most of them).

No, Christians are not losing this country.  It did not belong to them.  It does not belong to any religion. They were and/or are simply a majority..

...but as we are all so fond of pointing out, we are not a Democracy, but a Republic.  And mob mentality or simple majority does not this country make.

Your charachterization of divdoc aside, yer right. "Judeo-Christian" is a contradiction in terms.



Again correct. See Romans 2: 29-29.
   
Granted I'm cherry picking your psot, but these statements by you were worth repeating.

So when you see some Bible Beater extolling the Christian nature of the founders, in the words of the great singer of the 'Humpty Dance' tell him to 'Step Off'.

In fact, a lot of the errors of the Enlightenment and the practice of the Craft found their way into the American political system, and those flaws have been carried with us to this day.

It is unfortunate that after the Civil War, the Mayflower Bilge Rat Bible Revival religion became the dominant voice of Christianity in USA.  That is why America had Prohibiton for a DECADE.  A country that will ban the civilized drink of man for the previous 3000 years is a country that will DO ANYTHING.  

However, the denominations of Christianity have degenerated right on course, we have therefore, Snakehandling religions, Benny Hinn throwing the Holy Spirit around like a Fastball, MuthaFuckas falling backwards because their minds are so weak they think that the dime store preacher just tossed 1/3rd of the Holy Trinity at them.  What does that mean:

Christianity in the USA for the past 100 years has been a one horse act, absolutely unable to influence anyone in the world, impact foreing affairs, or even the cultural life of the country.  A Bible Beating Revivalist can handle a sermon quoting the Bible, however he cant handle the engineering of a decent highway.  A revivalist can quote a badly translated passage from Paul, but he cant read and learn from Shakespeare.  A Bible ranter can tell you the names of all of Soloman's wives and sign a song about it but he cant produce a ballet or appreciate an opera.  This of course accounts for the fact that the USA has a cultural output approximateing 0.00.

In any case, France was great.  cant wait to tell you about it.      

You won't need nomex to protect you from this guy. There are quite a few interesting things as regards our nation and freemasons...

Welcome home DSA. We've had a go-around or two in the past, but your posts above were good. I singled out the above, 'cause it really struck me as something some here should think about. So how about a "France" thread. Didja get any pics? Was the trip business or pleasure? See the museums??  [bounce]

(edited for BS)

Rridip...Rridip...Rridip

Post from MisterGreenJeans -

Yes, I believe that I have heard that crap from you before indeed.

And no matter how often you repeat it, it still remains crap. Period. And pretty lame crap at that!

Well, the [b]organic documents[/b] of this country are [u]solidly[/u] Christian in origin.

Ever hear of the Magna Carta? Do you think that it may have had aby inpact on the Founding Fathers?

"KNOW THAT BEFORE GOD, for the health of our soul and those of our ancestors and heirs, to the honour of God, the exaltation of the holy Church, and the better ordering of our kingdom, at the advice of our reverend fathers Stephen, archbishop of Canterbury, primate of all England, and cardinal of the holy Roman Church, Henry archbishop of Dublin, William bishop of London, Peter bishop of Winchester, Jocelin bishop of Bath and Glastonbury, Hugh bishop of Lincoln, Walter Bishop of Worcester, William bishop of Coventry, Benedict bishop of Rochester, Master Pandulf subdeacon and member of the papal household....."

"FIRST, THAT WE HAVE GRANTED TO GOD, and by this present charter have confirmed for us and our heirs in perpetuity, that the English Church shall be free, and shall have its rights undiminished, and its liberties unimpaired. That we wish this so to be observed, appears from the fact that of our own free will, before the outbreak of the present dispute between us and our barons, we granted and confirmed by charter the freedom of the Church''s elections - a right reckoned to be of the greatest necessity and importance to it - and caused this to be confirmed by Pope Innocent III. This freedom we shall observe ourselves, and desire to be observed in good faith by our heirs in perpetuity."

Sounds like a very Christian document to me, how about to you?

Ever hear of the Mayflower Compact? Do you thing it may have had any impact on the Founding Fathers?

"In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of England, France and Ireland, King, Defender  of the Faith, e&.

"Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and  Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern  parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and  mutually in the Presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance  of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact,  constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as  shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General  good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due  submission and obedience.

"In Witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names  at Cape Cod the eleventh of November, in the Reign of our  Sovereign Lord, King James of England, France and Ireland,  the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth.  Anno Domini, 1620."

[b]This compact established the first basis in the New World for written laws - Christianity.[/b]

Sounds like a very Christian document to me, how about to you?

Ever hear of Connecticut''s Fundamental Orders of 1639?

"January 14, 1639

"[b]Preamble[/b]

"For as much as it hath pleased Almighty God by the wise disposition of his divine providence so to order and dispose of things that we the Inhabitants and Residents of Windsor, Hartford and Wethersfield are now cohabiting and dwelling in and upon the River of Connectecotte and the lands thereunto adjoining; and well knowing where a people are gathered together the word of God requires that to maintain the peace and union of such a people there should be an orderly and decent Government established according to God, to order and dispose of the affairs of the people at all seasons as occasion shall require; do therefore associate and conjoin ourselves to be as one Public State or Commonwealth; and do for ourselves and our successors and such as shall be adjoined to us at any time hereafter, enter into Combination and Confederation together, [b]to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus which we now profess, as also, the discipline of the Churches, which according to the truth of the said Gospel is now practiced amongst us[/b]; as also in our civil affairs to be guided and governed accordinbg to such Laws, Rules, Orders and Decrees as shall be made, ordered, and decreed as followeth:

1.    It is Ordered, sentenced, and decreed, that there shall be yearly two General Assemblies or Courts, the one the second Thursday in April, the other the second Thursday in September following; the first shall be called the Court of Election, wherein shall be yearly chosen from time to time, so many Magistrates and other public Officers as shall be found requisite:  Whereof one to be chosen Governor for the year ensuing and until another be chosen, and no other magistrate to be chosen for more than one year: provided always there be six chosen besides the Governor, which being chosen and sworn according to an Oath recorded for that purpose, shall have the power to administer justice according to the Laws here established, and for want thereof,[b]according to the Rule of the Word of God; which choice shall be made by all that are admitted freemen and have taken the Oath of Fidelity[/b], and do cohabit within this Jurisdiction having been admitted Inhabitants by the major part of the Town wherein they live or the major part of such as shall be then present."

*                 *                 *

On the 14th January 1639 the 11 Orders above said are voted and approved.

Do these items seem to be written from a Christian viewpoint? They do to me? How about you?

How about the First Thanksgiving Proclamation?

- continued -

[b]JUNE 20, 1676:[/b]

"The Holy God having by a long and Continual Series of his Afflictive dispensations in and by the present Warr with the Heathen Natives of this land, written and brought to pass bitter things against his own Covenant people in this wilderness, yet so that we evidently discern that in the midst of his judgements he hath remembered mercy, having remembered his Footstool in the day of his sore displeasure against us for our sins, with many singular Intimations of his Fatherly Compassion, and regard; reserving many of our Towns from Desolation Threatened, and attempted by the Enemy, and giving us especially of late with many of our Confederates many signal Advantages against them, without such Disadvantage to ourselves as formerly we have been sensible of, if it be the Lord's mercy that we are not consumed, It certainly bespeaks our positive Thankfulness, when our Enemies  are in any measure disappointed or destroyed; and fearing the Lord should take notice under so many Intimations of his returning mercy, we should be found an Insensible people, as not standing before Him with Thanksgiving, as well as lading him with our Complaints in the time of pressing Afflictions:

"The Council has thought meet to appoint and set apart the 29th day of this instant June, as a day of Solemn Thanksgiving and praise to God for such his Goodness and Favour, many Particulars of which mercy might be Instanced, but we doubt not those who are sensible of God''''s Afflictions, have been as diligent to espy him returning to us; and that the Lord may behold us as a People offering Praise and thereby glorifying Him; the Council doth commend it to the Respective Ministers, Elders and people of this Jurisdiction; [b]Solemnly and seriously to keep the same Beseeching that being perswaded by the mercies of God we may all, even this whole people offer up our bodies and soulds as a living and acceptable Service unto God by Jesus Christ[/b]."

This First Thanksgiving Proclamation was issued on June 20, 1676, by the governing council of Charlestown, Massachusetts, at a meeting to determine how best to express thanks to our God for the good fortune that had seen their community securely established.

By unamimous vote they instructed Edward Rawson, the clerk, to proclaim June 29 as a day of thanksgiving, the very first in our nation's history!

On November 20, 1772, Samuel Adams presented his document on the rights of colonists...upon which was based "all that was written or spoken on human liberty in the Congress which declared independence" (William V. Wells)

"THE RIGHTS OF THE COLONISTS AS CHRISTIANS

"THESE MAY BE BEST understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the great Lawgiver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.

"By the act of the British Parliament, commonly called the Toleration Act, every subject in England, except Papists, etc., was restored to, and reestablished in, his natural right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience. And, by the charter of this province, it is granted, ordained, and established (that is, declared as an original right) that [b]there shall be liberty of conscience allowed in the worship of God to all Christians, except Papists, inhabiting, or which shall inhabit or be resident whitin, such province or territory[/b]. Magna Charta itself is in substance but a constrained declaration or proclamation and promulgation in the name of the King, Lords, and Commons, of the sense the latter had of their original, inherent, indefeasible natural rights as also those of free citizens equally perdurable with the other. That great author, that great jurist, and even that court writer, Mr. Justice Blackstone, holds that this recognition was justly obtained of King John, sword in hand. And peradventure it must be one day, sword in hand, again rescued and preserved from total destruction and oblivion."

Regarding the Christian Foundations of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA:

[b]"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. [u]It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian[/u]."[/b] - United States Supreme Court, 1892.

"While making certain not to endorse any denomination of religion over another, the founders of this nation made it emphatically clear that the principles upon which this Nation was built are based squarely upon the Bible. [b]Virtually every one of the 55 writers and signers of the United States Constitution were members of various Christian denominations: 29 were Anglicans, 16 to 18 were Calvinists, 2 were Methodists, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Roman Catholic, 1 lapsed Quaker and sometimes Anglican, and 1 open deist--Dr. Franklin who attended every kind of Christian worship, called for public prayer, and contributed to all denominations.[/b]

George Mason is called the father of the Bill of Rights, for he insisted that the first ten amendments be added to the Constitution.  The purpose for such an addition?

"The laws of nature are the laws of God, whose authority can be superseded by no power on earth," Mason said.

James McHenry was a member of the Continental Congress, a state legislator, a soldier, and a signer of the Constitution...as well as the president of the first Bible Society in Baltimore.  McHenry stated:

"Neither...let it be overlooked, that public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability, and usefulness."

Charles Cotesworth Pinckney also signed the Constitution, and served as a delegate to the national Constitutional Convention and an author of the Constitution of South Caroline.  Pinckney was a statesman, soldier, planter, a brigadier general and a candidate for President and Vice-President.  Like the rest of the signers of the Constitution, he too recognized the Sovereignty of God:

"Blasphemy against the Almighty is denying his being or providence, or uttering contumelious reproaches on our Saviour Christ.  [u]It is punished, at common law by fine and imprisonment, [u]for Christianity is part of the laws of the land[/u]."[/b]

And, for those who fear this sort of Law breeds intolerance or disrespect for others, Patrick Henry boldly declared:

[b]"It cannot be emphasized too strongly that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded assylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here."[/b]

Likewise, the Constitution of the United States was drafted so as to be in accordance with the Scriptures, to be the legal foundation of a republican form of government based on that model which God had ordained for the children of Israel.  Indeed, Thomas Jefferson even suggested that the national seal be a portrayal of "the children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night."  Much of the Constitution and our American common law and organic law is also derived from the principles of the Magna Carta, which expressly forbade monarchial tyranny.

There are NOW, but that wasn''''t always the case, now was it? And just what in Hell have these other religions ever produced that can even stand on the shadows of that wrought be the principles of Christianity?

- continued -

Well, who knows, we just may be a threat to your own well being.[:D]

Now, the ball is in [u]your[/u] court, [b]MisterGreenJeans[/b]. Let's see what evidence that you have for Christianity NOT being the founding doctrine of this nation?

I look forward to your list![:D]

Eric The(Shouldn'tTakeTooLong!)Hun[>]:)]