I have a homework assignment for you...

Tell me all you can about Israel Shahak, and his book "Jewish History, Jewish Religion."


And here's the challenege:

Also, how many of you would be willing to admit to BEING Jewish, and thus having, JUST MAYBE, a slight bias in the Israel discussions, perhaps some family ties to the Homeland, or even perhaps even having an underlying suspicion  that people who don't support Israel, you think they dislike YOU becasue of this.

In short, let's have FULL DISCLOSURE.

If I get EVEN ONE of you to do this (granted, it'll be a subjective assessment as to whether I feel you've given FULL disclosure), I'll also give full disclosure.

I can start right now. I'm blond haired, blue eyed, Germanic church of Christ for six generations and have as much Jewish blood in my veins as your typical Norwegian fisherman.

In other words, nary a drop!

But I love Israel and its people. I think that Israel is what the United States might have been had it not been given a vast continent to work its will upon, and was just limited to the original 13 colonies.

It would have been a Christian nation above all, but with no single sect running the show.

Much like Israel today, which is a 'Jewish' nation, but with no one sect running the show.

With 20% of its citizenry being American citizens and a great part of the remainder educated in the United States, they are more like we are then the British are today.

Possibly.

So what's the problem? Where is this thread going?

Eric The(GentleGentile)Hun[>]:)]

I'd say it's pretty obvious where it's going.

Israel Shahak was a bigtime lefty humanrights guy who basically said that the Jews were wrong on the Palestinian issue. Oh, he was also a Jewish professor in Israel. Trojan horse, Garandman? You've mentioned one far-out Jewish author who doesn't toe the line with Israeli foreign or domestic policy. So what?

I'm not Jewish, or crypto-jewish. Are you a crypto-Nazi? You're baiting like you are, and you're playing like all conclusions to be drawn will come your way.

I've shown you mine. Let's see what you've got.

I'm as pro-Israel as you can get without either being Jewish or Eric The Hun.

I'm not even remotely Jewish in any way.  I'm in Alaska.  There's like 3 Jews here, total.

Blue-eyed, brown hair (didn't turn gray it turned loose), Scandinavian, Scottish and Irish descent.  Raised in the Southern Baptist Church.  Father was a deacon named Isaac and mother played church piano for twenty-three years.  In that part of the world Israel is the best friend we have.

Hmmm, who said this?

'Unfortunately, the hurried recognition of Israel as a state has resulted in forty-five years of murderous confusion, and the destruction of what Zionist fellow travellers thought would be a pluralistic state - home to its native population of Muslims, Christians and Jews, as well as a future home to peaceful European and American Jewish immigrants, even the ones who affected to believe that the great realtor in the sky had given them, in perpetuity, the lands of Judea and Sameria. Since many of the immigrants were good socialists in Europe, we assumed that they would not allow the new state to become a theocracy, and that the native Palestinians could live with them as equals. This was not meant to be. I shall not rehearse the wars and alarms of that unhappy region. But I will say that the hasty invention of Israel has poisoned the political and intellectual life of the USA, Israel's unlikely patron.

'Unlikely, because no other minority in American history has ever hijacked so much money from the American taxpayers in order to invest in a 'homeland'. It is as if the American taxpayer had been obliged to support the Pope in his reconquest of the Papal States simply because one third of our people are Roman Catholic. Had this been attempted, there would have been a great uproar and Congress would have said no. But a religious minority of less than two per cent has bought or intimidated seventy senators (the necessary two thirds to overcome an unlikely presidential veto) while enjoying support of the media.'

Recognize the socialist banterings? It's Gore Vidal's Foward to: [i][b]Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years[/i][/b] (1994)

Eric The(So,WhatElseIsNew?)Hun[>]:)]

well im Jewish, haven't read that guys book. I have to cousins who were former IDF, and they both take pretty moderate views on the subject (yet both were involved in the 73 war) I consider Israel to be our only real ally in the area, often times Israel is one of the few countries that stands up for us. If they could help us militarily they would, but as most of you know them helping us is like throwing fuel on the fires of hatred in the region (You know the whole U.S. is Satan and Israel is the little Satan deal)

  If anybody is to blame for this mess the Palestinians and the Israelis are not it. Its the UN for screwing the pooch on the whole shebang and giving the Palestinians nowhere to go, and for not offering any securing force to help establish the state of Israel and make it so that both groups could use the city of Jerusalem and interchange through out the area evenly.


and now im off topic... what is the point of this again ?

This is going to backfire on you Gman. Like the king of Denmark who wore a yellow star of David did when the nazis tried to harm the Danish Jews, I stand in my bacony and proclaim, "We are all Jews" And a hearty Danish F*ck Off!

Here is some homework for you Gman. If the Israelis didn't blow up the Iraqi reactor, and Sadaam got nukes, we would have had to stand by while he took over the entire Arabian peninsula. You'd probably be walking to work since you couldn't afford the gas. Figure out how much it would cost us if a nuclear armed Iraq was in control of all the middle eastern oil? Your tax dollars did a pretty good job back in 81, and we are still enjoying the dividends. Oh, by the way. I shipped a nice big fat shipment to Israel yesterday paid by more of your tax dollars. I am now able to take on 2 more full time employees. I am currently negotiating a deal with Israel that may prevent a plant from closing down back east that employs about 300 folks. I dedicated the deal yesterday to you![:D]

az_larry (proud to be a Jew Crew Larry)

Israel Shahak was a self-loathing anti-Zionist Jew that lefty Western intellectuals and other closet anti-Semites like Gore Vidal (and apparently garandman) latched onto and held up as an "authentic" voice of anti-Zionism, because he confirmed all their secret prejudices and stereotypes about Jews and Israel. He wrote and said things about Jews and Israel that the secret Jew-haters didn't have the balls to say out loud. He was also pretty much full of crap. His book is apparently full of unsubstantiated and undocumented slurs passed off as "facts" about the history of Zionism. In short, he was the Michael Bellesiles of anti-Zionism.

Oh, by the way, he is also dead.

I'm Catholic (not that it's any of your damn business), and I support Israel. Why? Because I've been there, and I've seen how ordinary Israelis live. I've seen how vibrant and vital their nation and culture is, compared to the sterile veneer of modern civilization present in the Arab Gulf states. Their fight is our fight. It's the fight of representative democracy, respect for individual human rights, market economy, and yes, freedom of religion against tyranny, ignorance, and mindless theocracy.

So what's your damn point?

I thought that was obvious.  This was started by a borderline anti-semite who hasn't studied his Bible close enough to realize the Jews are and will forever be God's chosen people.  Yes, the Jews have disobeyed God and rejected his Savior(for the moment...).  That in no way means he has rejected the Jews or forgotten his promises to them.

He also said:  "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse." Genesis 12:3

I would tread very softly Mr G, were I you.  Being a believer, you are inviting divine chastenment.

well...my boss was a Jewish carpenter...
...and...maybe my views are colored by meeting two lovely vivacious Israeli college students in my European travels. they told of the fear and trepidation with which they live their lives (and this was back in 2000) and the constant fear for the wellbeing of themselves and their families.  the wanted nothing more than to live the safe and free life that I live here in the states.  they had bee summarily and thoroughly [b]terrorized[/b]...
they harbored no anger towards Palestinians, moreover just fear and astonishment that they could kill so randomly and violently...
i met these two ladies in Europe and have for the past year not been able to reach them through email... maybe they had to quit their jobs to help and fight... maybe they came to the states to seek refuge (leaving their families behind)... maybe their lives were senselessly snuffed out in a suicide bombing in an area populated with young Israelis...
[b]my bias on this issue is clear...[/b]  

Post from raven -

That's very well put, my man! You have a way with words.

Eric The(Pro-,IMeanReallyPro-Israel)Hun[>]:)]

I do not think it can be put more succinctly than DoCH put it.

Ugh!

Cant stand not replying to this one.

Gman needs schooling on salvation, but he hits the nail on the head on the jewish situation in israel. Perfect bullseye.

I am not jewish, I am a member of the body of Christ, ETH knows what I mean.

I am totally in opposition to ANY US INVOLVEMENT WITH ISRAEL. Why? because that dirty little flyspeck of land is worth nothing. And NONE of the people in it are either, unless it is to their own self serving ends. They all hate each other. Cool, let them slug it out and the last man standing wins. Pyrrhic victory at its best. But keep us out of where we dont belong. And as far as US citizens being double citizens of ANY country..... you are one or the other and not both. Dont like it here? Get the heck out and stay out. You get blown up in your socialist kibbutz, tough zwiebeck. Everyone knows the arabs are crazy and if they wanna live in iz, you rolls the dice and takes your chances.

I DEFY anyone to provide ANY type of strategic importance that iz has. ANY. No, really, any.

Also, prove that iz is not the stick up the world muslim communities backside. Really. Go ahead.

Iz should get $0.00 US dollars, save for the huge jewish money lobby that runs this country, they sure as hell wouldnt.

Wake up folks!

Dram out

Israel is like the US????? Bwahahahahaha! Not on a bet it is. What a joke.

Brown hair - brown eyes - Dutch, Irish, Scottish, Hamster and only God knows what else in me.

Christian - nondenominational

Married to a blond haired, green eyed, full
blooded southern Lebanese beauty.

My wife's ancestors left "the old country"
several generations back. Seems they got fed
up with the Christian persecution going on in
that part of the world at the time.

We're both pro Israel.

And by the way GMAN, why would anyone here not be "willing to admit to BEING Jewish" if they're
Jewish?

I'm of Scottish descent with a good dose of Cherokee Indian mixed in. I've been to Israel, Egypt and Saudi Arabia and I'll take Israel anytime. The Israelis' will treat you with kindness and literally run out in the streets and drag you into their homes if they think theres' cause for alarm. The Arabs, well they'll run out and shit in the streets(literally) and treat you somewhat kindly only if they think they can sell you something. I'd go back to Israel but wouldn't waste my time with the others. Oh yeah, not a Jew in the family but I wouldn't cry about it if there were.

Full discharge??

Well

Parents Staunch Catholics from Holland.  

I am a Staunch Atheist...

My brother did the whole  family tree thing a few years back....

He got as far as 1474 or so....not a single Bloomberg, &#&#&owitz etc in the whole tree.


Israel is the ONLY sane nation in the whole area.

The Palestinans are wrong..


You have some REAL problems??

( but I still respect you....well maybe a bit less now)

Yes, [b]Dramborleg[/b], I know precisely what you mean, since I, too, am a member of the Body of Christ.

But do remember that when He comes again, He will not come to the United States, He won't set foot in Manhattan, nor Dallas, nor London, Paris, or Rome.

He won't visit the Vatican, nor Westminster, nor Chartres Cathedral, nor Notre Dame, nor any church, temple, synagogue, no matter how large, ancient, or awe-inspiring.

But He will set His foot with authority on the Western slope of the Mount of Olives, mount a colt of a donkey never ridden by man, and ride through the Kidron Valley to enter into [u]His[/u] City, through [u]His[/u] gate, the Golden Gate, which is also called the Gate of Mercy, and take His seat upon King David's throne.

How is it that we as Christians do not know this?

The Ottoman Turks read the same Bible as you and I do and understood it completely.

Being in possession of Jerusalem, the Turks in 1350 undertook to completely wall up the Golden Gate solely for the avowed purpose of preventing the Jewish Messiah from ever entering into the City of Jerusalem, as had been prophesied.

Then to add a further barrier to this 'Jewish' Messiah, they located a Moslem Cemetery just outside the walled-up Golden Gate!

They figured that no holy man would dare walk through an 'unclean' place such as a cemetery before entering the City.

Now, just how much of those obstacles do you think will stand in the way of Christ for long, when He arrives on Judgment Day?

But it does show the beliefs of Moslems that they believe that 'someone' is coming.

And that someone we know to be Christ!

So Israel may be a dog of a nation to us, but it is His land and the first in His kingdom.
Speak softly when you speak ill of His City.

[red][b]'Salvation is of the Jews'[/red][/b] He said.

[red][b]'Ye shall not see me henceforth, until ye say 'Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord'[/red][/b] He also said.

The Jews will see Jesus, Whom they pierced, and mourn for Him as one would mourn for an Only son, as Jeremiah prophesied.

Eric The(Careful,TheyAre[u]His[/u]Brethren,Too)Hun[>]:)]

Some Jewish blood in me from the 1600's but non-practicing in 400 years because my wimpy ancestors would have rather switched than fought.
Personally I think the best solution is to offer every Israeli a US passport and $50,000 to move here. They have five years to take the offer, and then we cut off aid.
It would be much cheaper for the US than the current situation.

You determine your friends based on strategic importance?

I am of European ancestry, mostly English, Scotish, German, Dutch etc.  My mothers people came over with the Puritans, though I am far from a fanatic.  (Neither were some of those ancestors - they left because of the rigidness.)

One of those ancestors, Ezra Meeker, is in Ripleys as one of the "fighting Meekers" of what is now New Jersey.  Seems they were all very large men for the day, well over 6', and really ENJOYED killing the English during the Revolution.  Old Ezra was in his middle 70's  and fought with his son and GRANDSON in the war!!  Pretty amazing old guy!

I digress - Have been Protestant all my life and not likely to change.  As does Ilikelegs I  claim membership in no denomination but that is another topic.

Point is, if I have any Jewish blood I know nothing of it.  I do, however, fully support their struggle against the animalistic trash that call themselves Palestinian.  My father fought against the Nazis in WWII and would have skinned me alive had I shown any sympathy towards them.  Guess you just have to take my word for it that I am not a Skinhead, Nazi or KKK - I abhore them all.

I will not try to define GM here - that is up to him at this point.

Some German Jew in me.  Four generations back on my maternal side, the family spoke Yiddish.  I think I can honestly say that this fact doesn't affect my pro Israeli stance at all as I personally have never been exposed to Jewish culture.

So I take it you would not have had a problem with Iraq getting nukes? No strategic value? Boy, am I glad you weren't evaluating "strategic importance" of the allies in WWII!

OH, but he is qualified.  That's the essence of the Baptist faith.  Many Baptists feel better about themselves by casting judgement on those with whom they do not agree.

I'm pro-Israel, Catholic, have Jewish ancestry (that's about 16 generations back), and have no ties with Israel.  I side with them partly because the mere existence of a Jewish state pisses off anti-Jewish fundamentalist ninnies like you.  Having lived in the Northern end of the Bible Belt for years I've grown used to, but never accepting of, the consistent anti-"papist" and anti-"Jesus killer) crap that is hurled by ignorant, unfulfilled, need-a-life fundamentalists.  Christian fundamentalists are no better in my personal opinion than fundamentalists who are members of any other religion or sect.

I side with the Israelis because they have the wherewithall to turn a desert into a paradise while simultaneously defending it from hordes of jealous medieval throwbacks.  The Jews earned there land by fighting for it.  I know it pisses off a Native to hear the "you lose it, it ain't yours no more" line, but tough titty.  Your bitching about Israelis is at least partially motivated by your ingrained dislike for "the people who killed Jesus," and also partially motivated by your empathy for the losers who are the Palestinians (because, I suppose, your ancestors lost their land to the white folk in a similar manner).

There it is.

Christ was, is, and forever shall be, a Jew. I love Christ.  Guess that means I love Jews.  Honestly, do you think any of your pithy statements would really change any of our views.  Most anti-semitic bantar is nothing more than hate spewed forth for the sole benefit of the person doing the talking. Let's move on to something else.  Hey, any of you .50cal guys please check out my post on the "armory-.50cal" discussion group and let me know what you think.  Thanks

As far as my ancestry, I'm 1/2 Welsh  and  1/2 Swedish. Brought-up in an almost useless Presbyterian setting. Dad was an Engineer and Teacher, Mom was a nurse...I read their library of [school} textbooks at a very early age...Been a non-denominational Christian since 1986. And if you aren't familiar with my posts, you will find that I loathe organized/ legalistic religions.

The big conspiracy behind the U.S. supporting Israel has NOTHING to do with them being of "strategic" importance.

What you have to keep in mind is this...

Most Christian "believers" are well aware of the 2nd Coming of Christ. The other part of the equation is Armaggedon.

The Fall of Israel (probably a nuclear war) is one of the last things that will happen before the 2nd Coming and Armageddon.

George Bush is a believer (or so it appears). If you think for one minute that the possibility of Armageddon has never crossed his mind, think again. IMHO, I believe that the U.S. is trying to prevent an Israeli war with that in mind, among other things. IMHO, if Israel is involved in a substancial war, it will be TEOTWAWKI, because every Islamic nation will join in and probably kick their ass.

Just my conspiracy theory.

Many observers thought that Israel's strategic importance to the US would diminish sharply after 1991: this was the year of the Gulf War, involving massive US direct military intervention in the region and the establishment of a permanent US military presence in the Gulf Arab states, as well as the year of the demise of the USSR. Actually one could even consider that the turning point was Egypt's shift in allegiance from the Soviet Union to the US in 1972, under Sadat, which explains the "more balanced" attitude of Washington in brokering a peace between Egypt and Israel after the 1973 war.


True, both 1972 and 1991 were major turning points, inciting the US to exert greater pressure on Israel for concessions in order to establish a pax americana. This is how the peace treaty between Begin's Israel and Sadat's Egypt could be concluded, and this is why the US exerted high pressure on the Shamir government in 1991 in order to join the "peace process". However, Israel's importance as a strategic asset to the US did not wane to the point of vanishing. Given the highly volatile and explosive character of the social and political situation in the Arab countries, the US knows too well that it cannot bet on the stability of any alliances there. Compared to that, the strategic dependence on the US of Israel as a political entity makes it the most stable of allies. The US knows that there are narrow limits to the number of troops it can station in the region, as was well illustrated by the heavy cost paid already for keeping 5000 US soldiers in the Saudi kingdom, including the Sept. 11 2001 attacks. It knows moreover that it takes time to get troops to the area and that it is not granted that it would always be as easy as during the military buildup of 1990 against Iraq. In this sense, Israel's role as a forward positioned military base in this part of the world is still very precious, and the 5 billion dollar it costs the US taxpayer annually are a very sound investment compared to what could be achieved if the same amount were added to the huge US military budget instead.

The entire article can be can be read at
[url]http://www.between-lines.org/archives/2002/may/Gilbert_Achcar.htm[/url]

My maternal great grandmother was Jewish.  If she had still been in Germany during WWII I would probably not be here. She and my great grandfather left prior to the turn of the century. My father was raised as a baptists and my mother was raised as a methodist.  So am I a "Jew"?

Well, G----man knows where I'm coming from and pretty much why, so I won't go into it here. Just wanted to make note of the fact that my three Jewish sons all have blonde hair and either blue or gray eyes. My own hair was dark blond (before it went gray) both of my Jewish wives, the current and the ex, have blue eyes. Guys, we all pretty much look like where our families came from in Europe or wherever.

Hey, it's OK if y'all want to put down the info about it. I just thought it was a little amusing.  Maybe cause it's real late and I've been up fo about 20 hours.  Think I'll go to bed now.  Bless all of you.  Folks like you are a good part of the reason I'm proud to be an American.

Interesting, considering it's already happened twice and the Israelis kicked ass and took names both fucking times.  

I agree...But if someone fires off a nuke over there, it will be a completely different situation.

Israel can kick-ass easily in a one-on-one fight, but their next "big" war will be different if nukes are unleashed.

Israel kicked ass in a two on one war.  I have no doubt they would mop up the middle east if war came.  I have seen nothing to impress me of the fighting abilities of the Arab military machines.
I am Catholic through as many generations as I have been able to go back. I consider myself to side with Israel though that doesnt make it a black and white love. Israel has done things I do not agree with.  G-Man has brought up points I agree with. The whole conflict is something I try to understand and make sense of with little luck.

As usual Gman gets offensive.
How just one person can live with such hate is beyond me.  

For the discussion.  I have no  formal religious upbringing. Zip, Nada.  My great Granddaddy was a Southern Baptist, close as I come.

Read the bible,  studied religions to see if there was something there for me.  Never came across anything worthwhile.

May have had something to do with all the immoral, unethical lying scum I kept coming across that loudly proclaim their faith.

Honest religious faith can be a fine thing,if you can find it.  But I consider Gman's version to be warped, a crutch for a weak mind, and a complex con game.

Scotch/Irish ancestry, though an Czech did sneak in there because of the civil war.

I support Israel.  Not for some religious reason, but because it's the moral, just, and obvious thing to do.      

Im an Athiest, and i support Israel.  Why? It's hard to explain. Mostly because I think the Palestinians don't want peace, they want to push the Israelies into the sea.  The Israelies on the other hand, have had many opertunities to wipe out the Palestinians, but haven't.  
TR said "Talk softly and carry a big stick". that is what the Israel is doing.  And is the right thing to do.

Ben

I can't believe all of you fell for responding to Garandman's blatant trolling.

What I get from all of the God to the Holy land reference is, if you ain't a Jew you ain't shit cause you ain't one of the choosen ones.

Is the new testament written so people will think they can be saved?

Why would he really care about you if you are a gentile?

Jewish here.  

Problem?

I have just two words for garandman.......

"Never Again."

And, no, I'm not Jewish.

Post from Helldog20 -

Post from Redmanfms -

So, boyz, how did you come up with such Bullsh|t as that?

Christian fundamentalists carrying out suicide bombings in your neighborhoods?

Christian fundamentalists forcing your daughters to have clitorectomies?

Christian fundamentalists flying hi-jacked planes into commercial buildings near where you live?

Such friggin moral relativism and 'stinking thinking' should be kept in a dark closet where it belongs.

Y'all both need your heads (and moral values) examined!

C'mon, give us a list of recent atrocities by anyone claiming to be a Christian fundamentalist! Let's hear it! Spit it out!

Eric The(FundamentalistChristian)Hun[>]:)]

[size=4]Hello? garandman, where are you?[/size=4]

Can you now tell us the purpose of your exercise?

Some have said it was simply trolling on your part.

Give us an explanation for this thread!

Eric The(Unless,'They'WereRight)Hun[>]:)]

Let me give you a perspective about the kinds of things I have witnessed so-called-Christian fundamentalists perpetrate:

cult mind control
child molestations
theft
bigotry/racism
destruction of marriages
destruction of families
destruction of people's self esteem
perpetuation of ignorance (college is full of evil temptation)
promulgation of antisocial themes (isolationism)

the list continues.....

These are things I have witnessed as a child growing up in a fundamentalist Pentecostal family. I have no use for fundamentalism and it's ignorance or intolerance. Many fundamentalists hide behind isolated, misinterpreted scriptures to justify their twisted behaviors. They don't even practice the basic gospel message of unconditional love as written in the bible.

I have no interest in organized religion of any sort. It's a breeding ground for insanity.

Fundamentalism sucks.

I'm not Jewish, but I am circumcised!
I also surf Jewish personal ads in search of that sweet hottie heeb chick in need of Pagan Love!
[:D]

Edit:
Jewish Chicks Are The Bomb!
That's my bias Garandman.

[url]http://www.gospelassemblyfree.com[/url]

[url]http://www.rickross.com/groups/ga.html[/url]

[url]http://www.rickross.com/groups/fundamentalists.html[/url]

I have much more than this ETH... just no time this morning to post the overwhelming volume. I can and will provide you with what you ask on a large scale though.

How about Jehovah's Witnesses? Letting children die for lack of a blood transfusion?

Oh ETH I have quite a list....

Well, [b]BenDover[/b], you must be defining what a 'fundamentalist Christian' is from some weird sort of dictionary.

One of the largest 'fundamentalist Christian' denominations that I know of is the Church of Christ, of which I am a member.

The Church of Christ basically operates Pepperdine University in Malibu, California, Abilene Christian University in Abilene, Texas, Harding University in Searcy, Arkansas, and probably a couple dozen more, just in the United States.

So I wouldn't consider 'perpetuation of ignorance' a hallmark of Christian fundamentalism.

You also say that you have witnessed 'so-called-Christian fundamentalists' perpetrate:
cult mind control, child molestations, theft, bigotry/racism, destruction of marriages, destruction of families, destruction of people's self esteem, perpetuation of ignorance (college is full of evil temptation),
promulgation of antisocial themes (isolationism), and many other such abuses.

That's too bad that your experiences in the Pentecostal Church were so negative.

Your experiences do no, however, have anything to do with Christian fundamentalism, but only how that particular congregation and your family presented itself to you.

My wife grew up Pentecostal and she is a very, very well rounded person, college educated (LSU), and an excellent role model for anyone.

But, so what? What you derive from a religion is what you want to derive from religion.

If you want to shoot an abortionist doctor, you will simply not find any support for such an action either in the New Testament, or in the writings and creeds of any Christian fundamentalist denominations that I know of, and trust me, I know them all!

You can always find 'so-called fundamentalist Christians' and other 'Christians' doing whatever they wish, and citing the Bible as their authority to do so!

So what? When Christianity was just getting started, the Jews were busy killing them and basing their actions on the Bible, as well.

Eric The(FundamentalistChristian)Hun[>]:)]

From the media I have amassed regarding corrupt fundamentalist organizations, I could hardly call my experiences atypical.

All I did was answer your challenge to produce evidence to the atrocities committed by 'fundamentalist' christian groups. I am not here to judge them or any other group. You state that when christianity was just getting started, the jews were killing themselves too in the name of their doctrines. I agree with that statement and hold it as further evidence that:

1. Humans will fuck up anything and everything.
2. Religion is a human institution.
3. Fundamentalism of all flavors has been largely responsible for human atrocities perpetuated against mankind by their brother for thousands of years.

I have had my fill and choose to follow a path within my own heart.

Ben(EnemyToIgnoranceAndHumanAtrocityCommittedInTheNameOfAnyGod)Dover

Post from BenDover -

Save it, Son. What you have posted are just some various examples of people gone amuck. Small churches on the fringe, dominated by overwhelming personalities, no different from the 'Rev.' Jim Jones in Guyana.

Just because folks say they find guidance in the Word of God for their actions, doesn't make it so!

But if these Christian fundamentalists are so evil, why didn't President Bush mention them as a part of the Axis of Evil, along with Iran, Iraq, and North Korea?

Huh? Why not? [:D]

I have never considered the Jehovah's Witnesses as anything like a fundamentalist Christian denomination. I know that they don't consider themselves as Christian fundamentalists, and our church surely doesn't either!

Anybody can do anything they wish and claim God gave them a commandment to do it, whether it is refusing blood transfusions, or drinking purple kool-aid!

Oh, I'm sure you do, but if it is the same type of list as you have presented in the above post, save it.

All those sites say to me is that mankind is a sinful beast at times.

I already know that!

Eric The(ChristianFundamentalist)Hun[>]:)]