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Posted: 8/1/2002 5:02:42 AM EDT
[#1]
and how is this a glock tragedy?
sounds like a stupidity tragedy to me... |
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Posted: 8/1/2002 5:08:25 AM EDT
[#2]
I thought this was about some Robert Heinlein book.
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Posted: 8/1/2002 5:20:14 AM EDT
[#3]
Those damn Glocks if they werent so damn dependable that little boy may be alive... Please someone get these cops Sigs, so that there will be more of a chance of it not going off the next time they decide to unload their gun by pulling the trigger. [rolleyes]
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Posted: 8/1/2002 5:22:00 AM EDT
[#4]
and this is Glock's fault?
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Posted: 8/1/2002 5:22:47 AM EDT
[#5]
Its ok guys Phil here just has some Grock envy.
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Posted: 8/1/2002 5:22:58 AM EDT
[#6]
[b]REPEAT AFTER ME, EVERYONE.... [size=6] [red]MUZZLE DISCIPLINE! MUZZLE DISCIPLINE! MUZZLE DISCIPLINE![/red][/size=6][/b] Thank you. |
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Posted: 8/1/2002 5:36:49 AM EDT
[#7]
What is it with corrections and probation persons? Is a requirement for the job that your IQ be below room temperature in an unheated house in the wintertime? Frickin' idiots.
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Posted: 8/1/2002 5:42:56 AM EDT
[#8]
that poor little kid, and I feel very sorry for his dad too. What a terrible tragedy and probably several lives ruined because of inattention to basic firearms rules.
If you own and use firearms, you WILL have an ND sooner or later, I just pray that when you do, it's not pointed at your innocent 3 year old son. What a good reminder to work harder on basic gun safety. |
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Posted: 8/1/2002 5:48:57 AM EDT
[#9]
from crashburnrepeat:
...... If you own and use firearms, you WILL have an ND sooner or later, I just pray that when you do, it's not pointed at your innocent 3 year old son.... [b]huh? what exactly do you mean by that? are you assuming that none of us pay constant attention to detail? your assumption lacks credibility! i bet you all my firearms that i [red]WILL NOT[/red] have a negligent discharge in my lifetime.[/b] |
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Posted: 8/1/2002 5:57:58 AM EDT
[#10]
In a very broad sense of speaking....There are two kinds of shooters, those that have HAD an ND and those that WILL. Never hurts to control your muzzle and keep finger off trigger...
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Posted: 8/1/2002 6:41:57 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Its ok guys Phil here just has some Grock envy. Not anymore. I bought a Glock 17 about 4 months ago. Love it. I've put almost 3,000 rounds through it already. FYI, I was referring to the other thread on the board, "Yet another LE 'OOPS!' with a GROCK.... " which was [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=136823]here[/url]. |
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Posted: 8/1/2002 7:18:15 AM EDT
[#12]
Seems like a lot of LEO's have this trouble. I think it falls under "familiarity breeds contempt." The officers live with their weapons all the time, and they get too casual about them. Obviously this guy failed to exercise proper discipline and caution when clearing his firearm.
What bugs me is the article caption calling it an AD while cleaning his weapon. He wasn't cleaning it, he was clearing it in preparation for cleaning it. That's not the same thing at all. Every time some dumb ass reporter mis-construes a weapon clearing accident as a cleaning accident it makes it look as if firearms just up and load themselves when the officer is cleaning the thing. |
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Posted: 8/1/2002 7:22:07 AM EDT
[#13]
Boy I am sure glad that we are to put our future trust in only trained people in law enforcement to have guns.
REDRAY! Would you please put me first on your list to recieve your guns when you have that "never will have a accidental discharge in my life"incident. Never say Never. |
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Posted: 8/1/2002 7:28:43 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: [b]REPEAT AFTER ME, EVERYONE.... [size=6] [red]MUZZLE DISCIPLINE! MUZZLE DISCIPLINE! MUZZLE DISCIPLINE![/red][/size=6][/b] Thank you. And while we're at it, let's throw this one in as well, since it almost certainly applies: [b][size=6] [red]TRIGGER DISCIPLINE! TRIGGER DISCIPLINE! TRIGGER DISCIPLINE! [/red][/size=6][/b] It's a shame the kid died, but I highly doubt it was the Glock's fault. Sounds like dear old dad had his finger on the trigger and was pointing the pistol where he should't have. And those anti-gunners only want cops to have guns. Crap like this will still happen. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas... |
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Posted: 8/1/2002 7:50:32 AM EDT
[#15]
Pay attention to detail...If You Don't Pull The Trigger, It Won't Fire!
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Posted: 8/1/2002 8:18:49 AM EDT
[#16]
Before my son was allowed to fire any weapons. He had to learn the 4 basic rules of firearms safety and be able to repeat them on command, then explain what each meant and give examples.
Why is a 10 year old more versed in weapon safety than someone who carries a firearm for a living? [b][size=4][blue] 1. ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED! 2. NEVER LET YOUR MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY! 3. KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ON THE TARGET! 4. BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND BACKSTOP![/blue][/size=4][/b] The beauty of these 4 simple rules is if you only break one at a time you will most likely be ok. It is when you start breaking more than 1 at a time that tradgedies occur. (I am definetely not condoning breaking any of the above rules with this observation! Just pointing out the fact that they overlap and provide layers of safety.) |
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Posted: 8/1/2002 8:29:05 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: If you own and use firearms, you WILL have an ND sooner or later. BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!! If you follow safety rules every fucking time you won't!!! Obviously this guy didn't!!!!!!!! Sgtar15 [img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/8dafa939/bc/Yahoo!+Photo+Album/Dads68.jpg?bcpugX9AC9KKrvHO[/img] |
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Posted: 8/1/2002 8:30:07 AM EDT
[#18]
News said it was a 'service revolver'. See http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=23347
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Posted: 8/1/2002 8:37:44 AM EDT
[#19]
The father obviously made a mistake. While the glock is not at fault, it's design made the ND easier for the father to cause. He did not point the gun at his kid and fire, read the article. Like many times before, he pulled the trigger to remove the slide and break the gun down, but failed to realize or remember to look to see if a round was in the chamber. Muzzle and trigger discipline rules do not apply to glock cleaning ND situations.
The fault lies with the father, but glock could easily change their design to prevent these things from happening. He is a corrections officer, a low pay, and likely low IQ professional. He cleans his gun often due to his profession. Odds are that he will eventually fail to check the chamber, or check it, and fail to notice the round inside while he goes through the memorized motions of breaking down his firearms and cleaning it. Do to the fact the trigger has to be pulled to remove the slide, it is not surprising he had an ND. It is unfortunate that he shot his kid, but these stories have occurred commonly enough over the years of glock users ND when cleaning their guns. Glocks have two issues which as far as I can tell they have no intention of ever fixing. I don't know if this is due to possible legal problems if the correct the problems or if they just don't care. The two issues are the need to pull the trigger to remove the slide, and the fact the glocks will fire out of battery. Other handgun manufacturer's have corrected their designs over the years as problems are discovered, but glock has not. |
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Posted: 8/1/2002 8:52:20 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: News said it was a 'service revolver'. See http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=23347 If it was a service revolver, then this guy was just a complete idiot. |
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Posted: 8/1/2002 8:53:16 AM EDT
[#21]
I guess I missed the part of the Glock manual where it says...
1. Pull trigger while aiming at toddler. |
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Posted: 8/1/2002 8:55:43 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Quoted: Its ok guys Phil here just has some Grock envy. Not anymore. I bought a Glock 17 about 4 months ago. Love it. I've put almost 3,000 rounds through it already. FYI, I was referring to the other thread on the board, "Yet another LE 'OOPS!' with a GROCK.... " which was [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=136823]here[/url]. Oh my bad, I assumed you were the guy that made that post also. Well welcome to the Grock Crub! |
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Posted: 8/1/2002 9:12:14 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: News said it was a 'service revolver'. See http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=23347 Hmmm. I had heard Glock on the news when I heard it. I called the 105th precinct, they didn't know for sure what it was. |
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Posted: 8/1/2002 9:24:33 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Quoted: News said it was a 'service revolver'. See http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=23347 Hmmm. I had heard Glock on the news when I heard it. I called the 105th precinct, they didn't know for sure what it was. My local news calls [b]anything[/b] a cop carries a "service revolver." |
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Posted: 8/1/2002 9:26:41 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: ...Muzzle and trigger discipline rules do not apply to glock cleaning ND situations. Yep, scary how those things tend to go off when you pull the trigger with a round in the chamber. Perhaps keeping the muzzle pointed away from family members (i.e. muzzle discipline) would have saved the day. I don't agree that the takedown procedure of a Glock is a "defect", but even if it was it would mean that muzzle discipline is that much more important. Just because Glocks require you to pull the trigger on an [b]empty[/b] chamber to field strip doesn't constitute a flaw. Like any firearm, failing to follow general safe practices and manufacturers handling instructions will get someone hurt. Those instructions vary from gun to gun-it doesn't mean that one is intrinsically better or worse than another. In the end this is a story about someone who didn't follow the rules and now has a dead son. It doesn't matter what the rules are or whether or not they're they make the most sense. In this case he violated two rules, one was unique to the Glock (if that's truly what he had) but the other was a cardinal rule of gun safety. |
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Posted: 8/1/2002 11:08:39 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Quoted: ...Muzzle and trigger discipline rules do not apply to glock cleaning ND situations. Yep, scary how those things tend to go off when you pull the trigger with a round in the chamber. Perhaps keeping the muzzle pointed away from family members (i.e. muzzle discipline) would have saved the day. I don't agree that the takedown procedure of a Glock is a "defect", but even if it was it would mean that muzzle discipline is that much more important. Just because Glocks require you to pull the trigger on an [b]empty[/b] chamber to field strip doesn't constitute a flaw. Like any firearm, failing to follow general safe practices and manufacturers handling instructions will get someone hurt. Those instructions vary from gun to gun-it doesn't mean that one is intrinsically better or worse than another. In the end this is a story about someone who didn't follow the rules and now has a dead son. It doesn't matter what the rules are or whether or not they're they make the most sense. In this case he violated two rules, one was unique to the Glock (if that's truly what he had) but the other was a cardinal rule of gun safety. Well, first of all, you have to pull the trigger to break down the firearm, so the rule of keeping you finger off the trigger unless you intend to shoot is nullified. The othe idea of muzzle direction does not apply since you must break down and clean your firearm at home. So, do you know what is on the other side of the wall when you slean your guns, how about through the wall outside? How about through the wall, and into your neighbors' homes? Every range I have been to doesn't allow you to clean your firearm on the firing line, and that is the only place where there is a safe berm to point the muzzle towards. Muzzle direction is a rule which applies to no firearms when cleaning, since you usually sit at a table and break them down to clean in your home. But the trigger doesn't have to be touched on any firearm I currently own to disassemble and clean them. I have nothing against the glock design, the polymer striker fired idea is great. They just need to make a couple slight modifications, as almost every other manufacturer has to their own firearms over the years. |
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Posted: 8/2/2002 2:11:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Well, first of all, you have to pull the trigger to break down the firearm, so the rule of keeping you finger off the trigger unless you intend to shoot is nullified. I think you (and the father in this story) missed a few steps. Here is the corrected version: 1. Remove magazine 2. Remove round from chamber 3. Double check chamber is clear 4. Point in a [u]safe[/u] direction, and pull the trigger. Note that the first three steps should be followed for [b]any[/b] firearm that you clean. Follow those instructions and you won't hurt anyone. They really aren't that hard to obey, and should be second nature if you really understand how your weapon works. If they are genuinely too complicated for someone then you're right, Glock (or any other gun) is not a smart choice for them. |
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Posted: 8/2/2002 3:52:49 PM EDT
[#28]
As most Glock safe users know, to clear a Glock, you drop the mag, pull back the slide to clear the chamber, pull back the slide again to make sure. I think our shooter missed steps two and three. There's no way pulling a trigger on an empty chamber will cause a discharge. Period. I myself think it's purposefully designed that way so you will clear the chamber before field stripping. If you don't do it, it's an accident waiting to happen. I have heard of officers not doing steps two and three because they are used to other guns where you cannot pull the triger and it will not discharge with the mag out of the gun. That's supposedly been a factor in a few cases. I feel for the man, he'll carry this around for the rest of his life. I bet if he were a "civilian" he'd be looking at charges however.
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Posted: 8/2/2002 4:19:07 PM EDT
[#29]
The only "safety" on a firearm is the one between your ears. There is no excuse for failing to clear a firearm.
If you live in an apartment there is no safe direction to point your muzzle. You can make yourself a clearing barrel out of an empty 5-gallon paint pail and 2 bucks worth of play sand. All trigger pulling is done with the muzzle pointed into the pail. |
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Posted: 8/2/2002 5:03:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: 1. Remove magazine 2. Remove round from chamber 3. Double check chamber is clear 4. Point in a [u]safe[/u] direction, and pull the trigger. Note that the first three steps should be followed for [b]any[/b] firearm that you clean. I'd add a step between 3 & 4. That would be to check and make damn sure the magazine has been completely removed from the magazine well! I've seen this happen twice. Hit the mag release, pull the slide back, check the chamber and see that there isn't a round in it, release the slide...however the mag has not been fully removed and a round gets chambered, then pull the trigger and BANG! Saw it happen once with a Glock 26 and once with a 1911. |
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Posted: 8/2/2002 5:15:42 PM EDT
[#31]
WTH happened to Grock...
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Posted: 8/2/2002 5:43:59 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: My local news calls [b]anything[/b] a cop carries a "service revolver." Annoying, isn't it? Makes it sound like Andy Griffith's unassuming little .38 whellgun. What's even more annoying is that if you and I did the same thing, we'd be labeled baby killers and the journalist would call it a "powerful, high capacity semiautomatic weapon favored by drug dealers and widely rumored to be the choice of terrorists because it is made almost entirely out of plastic." The journalist would throw in a quote from some tinpot dictator police official who would remark about how us civilians have no need for such a gun and how this could have been avoided if the guy just called the police if anyone bothered him, instead of keeping the dangerous gun around. |
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Posted: 8/2/2002 5:49:02 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: I think you (and the father in this story) missed a few steps. Here is the corrected version: 1. Remove magazine 2. Remove round from chamber 3. Double check chamber is clear 4. Point in a [u]safe[/u] direction, and pull the trigger. Note that the first three steps should be followed for [b]any[/b] firearm that you clean. Follow those instructions and you won't hurt anyone. They really aren't that hard to obey, and should be second nature if you really understand how your weapon works. If they are genuinely too complicated for someone then you're right, Glock (or any other gun) is not a smart choice for them. I handle a loaded Glock almost daily and so far I have managed not to have a ND. When I clear it to be broken down, I check the chamber 4-5 times visually by cycling the slide AND stick my finger in the chamber to reconfirm. Then I point it right into the ground, no possible casualties below, before pulling the trigger. |
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Posted: 8/2/2002 5:59:08 PM EDT
[#34]
[b][i][size=6]HEY,HEY,HEY!![/b][/i][/size=6] Easy on the moniker there!! [b][size=5][i]I'm just fine! (so is my reliable and safe GLOCK!) No tradgedy![/b][/size=5][/i]
[b][size=6]Jeeze!, you scared me![/b][/size=6] [8D] |
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Posted: 8/2/2002 6:08:24 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: from crashburnrepeat: ...... If you own and use firearms, you WILL have an ND sooner or later, I just pray that when you do, it's not pointed at your innocent 3 year old son.... [b]huh? what exactly do you mean by that? are you assuming that none of us pay constant attention to detail? your assumption lacks credibility! i bet you all my firearms that i [red]WILL NOT[/red] have a negligent discharge in my lifetime.[/b] I'll sweeten the pot with mine as well. Fucking idiots and retards have NDs. Pull a trigger when you aren't absolutly sure it's cleared...and then even if you are do it with it pointed at some one?! |
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Posted: 8/2/2002 6:18:05 PM EDT
[#36]
I don't see in the story were it said what type of gun the idiot had
what a horrible thing to live with |
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Posted: 8/2/2002 6:26:26 PM EDT
[#37]
Ok, now to address the issue:
I believe there should be a requirement for an IQ test before puchasing a firearm. If your IQ is below the caliber of the firearm in question then you should be excluded from ownership.... |
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Posted: 8/2/2002 6:34:48 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Quoted: If you own and use firearms, you WILL have an ND sooner or later. BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!! If you follow safety rules every fucking time you won't!!! Obviously this guy didn't!!!!!!!! Sgtar15 [img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/8dafa939/bc/Yahoo!+Photo+Album/Dads68.jpg?bcpugX9AC9KKrvHO[/img] You never cease to amaze me with your utter stupidity. [:E] AB |
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Posted: 8/2/2002 6:51:13 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you own and use firearms, you WILL have an ND sooner or later. BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!! If you follow safety rules every fucking time you won't!!! Obviously this guy didn't!!!!!!!! Sgtar15 [img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/8dafa939/bc/Yahoo!+Photo+Album/Dads68.jpg?bcpugX9AC9KKrvHO[/img] You never cease to amaze me with your utter stupidity. [:E] AB Who's more stupid. The guy who thinks that this type of action is unconscionable, or the fucking idiot that thinks it's acceptable. |
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