Hi All--

I was thinking about the Waco debacle earlier today, and came upon this question:

If I recall, the Waco seige lasted almost 2 months.  During that time, Koresh & friends were surrounded by ATF and FBI troops.  As the siege wore on, it was clear that it could only end in a few ways (in order of least likely to most likely):

1.  The justice department decides it's not worth the trouble and expense and pack their bags, to leave the Davidians in peace.
2.  The Davidians outgun the feds and take to the hills.
3.  The feds kill all the resisting Davidians.
4.  The Davidians peacefully surrender.

Now, David Koresh was no dummy, and he must have known that his chances at outgunning the feds, or them packing up and leaving were pretty much nil.  Has it ever been explained why he didn't surrender?  Even if the FBI hadn't burned them all alive, eventually the Davidians would run out of food.  So what were Koresh's reasons for not surrendering?  Has it ever come up?  I know some of the Davidians surrendered, by why did the others hold out?

The only reason I could think, if I were in Koresh's place, was to hope to get a reporter in there to hear his story and win sympathy from the public, which would make the Davidians' lives much easier when they surrendered and stood trial later on.

As it is, from a public-relations standpoint, the Davidians would have been much better off to surrender and stand trial, where at least they would be given a trial in which they could tell their side of the story, and the public could have heard them.  As it turned out, though, they all died and all the public got to hear was biased media reports sharply critical of the Davidians and their weird "cult."

Thoughts?  Information?

By the way, has anyone seen that newer Waco movie?  There was the "Rules of Engagement" and I think the fellow who made that one had a hand in the newer one, in which the reporters used the FOIA to get a 1st-hand look at the remaining evidence.  How is that new movie?

According to the testimony of Dick DeGuerin, one of two of Koresh's lawyers (the other being Jack Zimmerman), given at the [b]Republican[/b] House hearings on the Mt Carmel debacle in 1995 (not the DEMO one conducted in 1993), Koresh was preparing his followers for leaving their church and surrendering peacefully to the FBI, provided that he would be permitted to send out his interpretations of the 'Seven Seals' prophecy of Revelation, in advance.

The FBI negotiators agreed to permit this to be done, even sending in ink cartriges for the computer being used to compose and print the message of Koresh!

Meanwhile, the tactical side of the FBI urged that this was simply a stall tactic and that Koresh had no intention of surrendering, and that his request for time to finish compiling his message of the Seven Seals was not even being done!

The tactical side 'won out' over the negotiators, when Janet Reno pointedly asked the negotiators if there was 'any evidence' that the message was being written by Koresh.

When the negotiators were unable to assure Reno that the message was, in fact, being worked on, the tactical side was given the green light to proceed with the disastrous plan that resulted in the deaths of the Branch Davidians and thei children.

In the ashes at Waco, there was found the unfinnished manuscript for the message that [u]was[/u] being written by Koresh!

I think, like his attorney, that Koresh had every intention in leaving that church alive with his followers.

Eric The(Reasonable)Hun[>]:)]

If there is a silver lining to this cloud, it would be Oklahoma City and the Amtrak sabotage incident in Arizona("Sons Of Waco")put the fear of God into the Feds.  It is a real shame innocent people had to suffer to send the message.

The Arizona incident remains unsolved.

Just the first drops of the coming storm.

 [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/sadness.gif[/img]

2 months is a long time for Mr. Koresh to complete his "interpretation".  I feel he was stalling.

feds, schmeds...
I'm sorry, maybe I am misunderstanding your point, but any kind of terror action like Oklahoma City is never justified, no matter what the federal government may be doing.  Civil Disobedience is one thing, but killing civilians is another.
If you are going to accuse anyone of treachery, look at Reno and Klinton.

I had never heard about the Amtrak derailment, so I looked it up on Google.  The group claiming responsibility was "Sons of the Gestapo" NOT "Sons of Waco."  From the short piece I read, it seems questionable whether that was really in retribution for the Waco massacre.

See http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/multi/terrorism/amtrak.html

Total agreement here.

You got a beef, with "X"?

Then go after "X" and only "X".

Look at those "Palestinians."  If they went after military and military equipment, I for one would lose a hell of a lot of outrage.

The Murrah building was FULL of non targets.

It's  not a "shame" innicents were killed, it was murder.

You are clearly dangerous and/or insane.  If you think terrorism is any sort of utilitarian means you should be sent off to Afghanistan for reeducation.

Maybe he was stalling, but subsequent events showed that he was actually writing the message that he said he was writing.

If you read 'The Ashes of Waco' by Dick J. Reavis, or any other book on this subject, you will see that both sides were yanking each other's chain unnecessarily.

Especially when the stakes that were involved were considered.

Koresh was told by FBI negotiators, that if he released a particular child (one that was not his biological child) the electricity would be restored to the Church.

When that child was released, the FBI tactical side said 'No, but Hell no, the lights are not being restored.'

So the FBI in effect lied to Koresh! Big deal, right?

Well, it prevented any further possibilities of more children being released to their relatives in the outside world.

Big mistake by the FBI, wouldn't you agree?

As a matter of fact, the FBI's tactical side, the HRT, was so gung ho to go in and clean the Davidians out, that Dr. Alan Stone, a Harvard psychologist fired by the FBI to provide a report on the behavior of the Davidians during the siege, said that, while he was hired to examine the behavior of the occupants of Mt. Carmel, the behavior of the FBI agents was the more interesting and instructive in telling him everything he needed to know about the likely outcome.

Go to 'Waco - Rules of Engagement' website to learn more, and to read Dr. Stone's final report, which was a dissenting view in the final government report.

[url]http://www.waco93.com/index.html[/url]

If you have tears, prepare to shed them when you explore that site.

Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]

Thanks Mr. Steen...

I think my mental state is quite normal, but I appreciate your concern.

And to Mr. N_Viejo, I would suggest a deeper search for info on the Sunset sabotage incident



Here is a link to a somewhat different opinion on the incident.

[url]http://www.geocities.com/area51/3471/amtrak.htm[/url]

I don't exactly agree with his statements, but they make interesting reading.



Yes you are completely misunderstanding my point.  The JBT's certainly handled the Montana Freemen and  Elian Gonzales incidents far diffently than might have been the case were it not for OKC and the Sunset Limited actions.  I would also like to remind you the first person to die at Waco was a child shot by the BATF JBT, so I find your "no matter what the federal government may be doing" statement very curious indeed.  Who drew first blood?

Edited to respond to Mr Beekeeper..



Can you please explain how stating what I believe will take place makes me out to be "waiting and hoping for some silly "blaze of glory revolution"?  You need only refer to the "civilized discussion" about the Confederate flag elsewhere on this board to see that a simmering pot is present and getting hotter.  Too many interest groups are becoming more and more disaffected in this country for the lid to stay on.  How or when I cannot begin to tell you, but the lid is coming off.  Will I be glad?  No, but the "Klintons", Renos, Kennedys, and the like certainly have it coming.

If you don't agree or like my position, that is just too bad.  Of this I can be certain, one of us is wrong.  Time will tell who.

[img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/sadness.gif[/img]

[b]As the siege wore on, it was clear that it could only end in a few ways (in order of least likely to most likely):[/b]

Respectfully disagreed, N_Viejo. There was only one concievable outcome.

1. [b]The Feds burn the compound down and make sure that all the Davidians were dead or in jail for crimes they didn't commit so their individual testimonys would not be believed[/b].

Why? Well if you were the BATF and had used helicopters containing 50 cal. machine guns and had indescriminately strafed the compound from the air at the get-go and everyone found out about it there would be some pretty PO'd folks to reckon with.

Koresh's lawyer DeGuerin spoke of the death of the first lady, (who was shot while laying on her upstairs bed) shot by a 50 cal., which he witness the holes all throughout the roof inside the compound while visiting inside. He also commented on the front doors which although taken into custody by the FBI, have  mysteriously dissappeared.

Our government has only one option to use in instances like this that is to lie, cover-up and destroy the evidence in order to cover their own incompetence.

BTW, they had another problem, they lied to the state of Texas in order to gain the use of National Guard helicopters, by stating that Koresh had a meth-lab inside the compound. This was a blatant lie and had any of the compound remained (to prove there never was a meth-lab, which they had made up in the first place and knew from again sources like Deguerin who were allowed inside "did not exist") they would have been in violation of "Posse Commitatus" use of military equipment outside the rules governing JTF6 and uses of military which are exempt in certain circumstances under current law.

The trial of the remaining Davidian was a farce and anyone who follow the trial is well aware the what I stated up top is exactly the what happened to them. They, for the most part, were sentenced to 30years for a crime in which the maximum penalty is 10 years.

Mike

You got it Wilson. They also lied about the "child abuse" situation......

Pretty simple: he was a nut.

He was going to stay in there forever if they were going to let him.

There may have been different ways to handle the original warrant attempt, but the reality is that Koresh is to blame for everything that happened after that.

Yeah, Koresh was driving those flamethrowing tanks.

I've often wondered if Waco and Ruby Ridge could have been averted if we had not had a thumb-sucking moron for an Attorney General at the time.  How the hell Reno ever got appointed AG is beyond me.

marvl-

I think you will find that Janet Reno had no association with Ruby Ridge.  At the time that took place, she was busy chomping carpets in Florida and Poppa Bush was president.

I won't argue that.  He thought he was Jesus Christ.



He's to blame?  For what?

The trumped up charge of child molestation used to demonise him, even though they were never substantiated by any of the kids or any of the people who spent time there?

The legally purchased and owned weapons that the BATF claimed were converted to illegal Class III weapons, but were never presented, or the hand grenades that supposedly existed but were never found?

The use of incendiary tear gas canisters by the FBI that they claimed they didn't use, yet proof shows they did?

Sorry, Koresh may have well been a nutjob, but to say he got what he deserved means you believe the lies the BATF and FBI have perpetuated.  He and the Davidians deserved it in the same way Randy Weaver's wife and child deserved it. [rolleyes]

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

Was George Bush Jr. govener then or was that before his term?

Anyway why didn't the TX govener send in the National Guard to reign in the Feds?

Have any of you guys ever read "A place called Waco" by david thibadeaz (sp?)?  It's a pretty good book written by a guy in mount carmel.  Answers all of the questions

Keving67

I met David Koresh at a Gun Show in Austin abut three months before the February raid. He didn't seem too nuts to me, heh-heh.

But he never ever said he was Jesus, he said that he was a messiah, not the Messiah.

The basis for the media claim that he said he was Jesus Christ came from an Australian TV interview that was conducted prior to the raid.

One of the interviewers said to Koresh:

'There is talk that you consider yourself to be Jesus Christ and that you have gotten a lot of the female members of your church pregnant including an 80 year old woman'

His reply: 'An 80 year old woman?  If I did that, I am Jesus Christ!'

They would always play that section of the tape where he said 'I am Jesus Christ' over and over ad nauseum.

Of course his religious views were messed up, IMHO, but since when is that a capital offense.

He was probably a lot closer to my view of religion than a lot of mainline Protestant churches today!

Eric The(Reasonable)Hun[>]:)]

I think had the government denied David Koreash the media, it would not have ended the way it did.  

What I mean by that is, used a tottally different tactic.  At some point Koreash would have had to cruise into town for gas in his camaro, grocery store etc.  While in route, block in front, block behind, end of story.  No blaze of glory, no big expensive stand off, no poor media publicity or large amount of time under public scrutiny. IMHO

You miss the point entirely.  The object of the BATF raid was to GENERATE PUBLICITY for the upcoming Congressional Budget hearings in order to enhance the BATF's budget requests.

The raid on Mt. Carmel was designed to be a shameless media event.  That's why the BATF informed local TV and print media beforehand.  You don't think those Television cameras just happened to be there setup and ready to run by chance do you?

THe raid was scripted to make the BATF more taxpayer money.  It just didn't play out that way.

Indeed, [b]Arock[/b], the incoming Clinton Administration folks probably only knew the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, for two things:

1. The ATF office in Washington DC was being sued for sexual harassment of its female employees.

2. The ATF was the instigator of the infamous 'Good Old Boys Picnics' in the South, at which, federal agents showed themselves to be less than 100% politically correct (to say the least).

What better way for the ATF to introduce itself to the Clintonistas than to conduct a raid on Koresh?

He was a white, Bible thumping, female humping, tax evading, gun collecting, child molesting(?), anti-government male!  

What more could they want for their upcoming budget reauthorization hearings, but videos of a bunch of white crackers, lying on their bellies in their underwear, plasti-cuffed, while weapon after weapon was piled high on card tables by a racially and sexually-mixed group of ATF agents?

The name for the actual raid was [b]'Showtime'[/b].

I think that says it all!

Eric The(StillPizzedAfterAllTheseYears)Hun[>]:)]

Pardon me... Flame throwing tanks???

Would someone like to point out the M-number of the US flame throwing tank, thank you?

All the videos I saw showed M113 APCs, *not* tanks of any kind, much less 'flame tanks'.

Gas grenades with explosive bursting charges, yes. Gas, yes. Flame tanks? no.

And as for Koresh, I still believe he (or one of his crew) blew his own house up either on purpose or by accident. The BDs had nothing in there that the govt would want to kill them for - you can't collect on tax violations if the violators are all dead. Also, we have no idea what Koresh had or did not have in there, apart from that it burned up real easy.

What gets learned from this? Well, future anti-tax cult groups should build their last-stand compounds from concrete, cinder block, or other non-flammable substances, and have adequate fire surpression equipment before they get in a fire-fight. And future FBI siege teams should probably avoid covering up their methods. There would have been alot less conspiracy theories if the FBI had been honest instead of trying to cover it's butt. But honesty and the Clinton administration were on opposite sides of the coin...

Dave...I can see you are a newbie to this situation so I will help you out...there was so much CS in the church at the time of the fire that anybody left alive was most likely incapacitated...and CS is likely to ignite...the feds did not want them to live.....no child abuse...no meth lab and no illegal weapons....it was all a play for more money.....

Once again, you guys need to keep up with what [u]actually[/u] occurred during this particular episode of a government gone ape-shit!



Yes, 'nothing' except tons of exculpatory evidence for the Branch Davidians, and inculpatory evidence for the ATF agents!

Were there illegal full-auto weapons in the Church? Probably, according to Dick DeGuerin, who said during his testimony at the [b]Republican[/b] House hearings in 1995, that Koresh had admitted to him that they had stuff they shouldn't ought to have.

But the 'crime scene' was being altered daily by the FBI.

They moved all of the vehicles away from the immediate area of the Church, thereby totally destroying crucial evidence concerning the firefight for which the surviving Davidians were later tried.

The front doors of the Church, which were also crucial pieces of evidence in determining who shot first, and reconstructing the flow of events of the initial raid by the ATF, were also completely missing after the fire.

Missing? How do metal doors suddenly come up missing?

During his testimony, Jack Zimmerman, who was Steven Schneider's lawyer during the standoff and had visited his client along with Dick DeGuerin, was shown the upstairs bedrooms, where there were 'obvious entry holes' in the ceilings.

As an officer in the Marines for more than 30 years, Mr. Zimmerman stated that these bullet holes in the ceilings were definitely [b]entry[/b] holes, meaning that they could have only come from the ATF agents in helicopters firing indiscrimnately into the Church!

[b]Imagine that, if you will, [u]federal[/u] [u]agents[/u] firing [u]blindly[/u] into a church building in which they [u]knew[/u] children were present![/b]

And insofar as the 'flame throwing tanks' are concerned, they were M-60-E tanks, configured with booms that were used to spray tear gas into the Davidian's Church by poking holes through the flimsey panels that made up the church building's outer walls.

When you spray such a substance into a confined area, you are taking the risk that the concentrated spray could ignite, for any reason.

Combine that with the fact that approximately five minutes into the 'this is not an assault' assault began, it was kicked into 'Phase 2' by the alleged firing on the M-60-Es by someone inside the church building.

At this point, federal agents were permitted to use 'ferret rounds' of tear gas to augment the M-60-E's initial tear gas insertion.

These 'ferret rounds' are the 'pyrotechnic' rounds that were denied for so long by the FBI as ever having been used at Mt. Carmel.

That 'lie' cost one federal prosecutor his law license and gave him a felony conviction!

Here's a nice little drawing made by one of the Davidian children about the helicopter attack on her church building:

[img]http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/fig/w_fig34a.jpg[/img]

She dotted the roof with her dark crayon: [b]"Bullets," she said.[/b] Dr. Bruce D. Perry, chief of psychiatry at Texas Children's Hospital in Houston, conducted the interview with the child. Newsweek, May 17, 1993 published the drawing. She survived, thank God!

More to come!

Eric The(StillPizzed)Hun[>]:)]

Here's a lovely pic of a conquering FBT HRT team member taking his 'money shot' after the church building had burned to the ground!

Note the smile on his face.

Dead children behind him and this azzhole is busy having his picture taken.

I almost posted this pic on that 'Heritage or Hate' thread about the CBF, to show that Old Glory has witnessed a lot of crap going on, as well.

[img]http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/guyontank.jpg[/img]

Eric The(StillPizzed!)Hun[>]:)]

Look again, and pay attention [i]this time[/i].  They breached the walls of the compound with a Combat Engineering Vehicles based on the M60 tank chassis.  On that particular vehicle, they replaced the 105mm cannon of the M60 with a 135mm short-barreled tube that is used to fire demolition charges.  That tube was modified to dispense CS gas at high temperatures (burning).  You can even see flames coming out the tip of the tube.  That, my friend, is a [b]tank[/b].

Just imagine, here are some smiling kids who were lying butchered on the ground behind the smiling FBI HRT federal agent:

[img]http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/cm.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/6child.gif[/img]

[img]http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/cm4.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/1pgchild.gif[/img]

Transcript from an actual phone call between FBI hostage negotiator Jim Cavanaugh and one of the Branch Davidians small children......

(children crying . . . rustling sound as very young child picks up the phone)

Child:
[b]"Are you gonna come and kill me?"[/b]


Cavanaugh:
"Hello? hello? No, honey... " ( long pause then heavy sigh ).... [b]"Nobody's gonna come and kill you....."[/b]

Child:
[b]"Are you gonna come in and kill me?"[/b]

Cavanaugh:
"No..." (silence) [b]" . . .no . . . nobody's comin'."[/b]

[i][b]Lying Bastard! Lying child-murdering bastard! Lying, lying, lying bastard![/i][/b]

The Lord Himself shall repay this man many times over, if not in this World, then surely in the World to Come!

This is the patience of the Saints, that this man and the others will face a very short and brutal hearing before the Lord.

Eric The(AndItWasAllDoneInOurName)Hun[>]:)]

I think that what happened at waco was justified. i would not want a bunch of people living by me with hand grenades and full auto weapons. i think its ok to have full auto just do it the right way, get a class 3 permit. He had gave many times he would come out and each one came and went with him stalling for more time. i think he knew he was going to jail and wanted to go out with a bang. lets get real guys the guy had hand grenades, i dont want to live where guys can reach in thier pocket and toss a grenade. i am a staunch suppoter of the right to keep and bear arms but this guy was way over the line. as for oklahoma, i am glad they offed mcveigh. he killed a bunch of old folks who woked hard all thier life and were going to get thier social sceurity going and killed a bunch of kids. also why kill a bunch of office workers who have no say in politics. that would be the same as killing the mail man just because he works for the govt. its just plain wrong! just my opinion.

You're right, we must keep this "Fresh".....

False statement.  He [b]never[/b] claimed to be Jesus Christ.

Eric, I don't have tears for man's inhumanity towards man. I have a deep seated, burning, anger about the whole Klinton/Reno/Albright/Freeh era of debacle. Ruby Ridge proved my point. Waco added the exclamation point. What do you think Somalia added to the scenario?

Shrillery, Shitllery, or what ever that damned woman is to be called, will be running for President. Watch all of the Soccer Moms vote for her. Watch the apathetic gun owners not vote.

[b]Originally posted by thebeekeeper1
I do NOT, however, believe the peasantry is going to "rise up." Keep in mind these are the same people who elected WJC twice, and would probably do so again.[/b]

Beekeeper, If it hadn't of been for that Rat-Faced Texas Puke H Ross Perot, Klinton would never have been elected.

Post from kgpcr4 -

Well, we were [b]told[/b] by FBI negotiators that on [b]5[/b] occasions Koresh said that he was coming out, but then backed out of his 'agreement' to do so!

Funny thing, when the transcripts that the FBI kept meticulously detailing the entirety of their conversations with Koresh and the others, there is [b]no mention whatsoever by Koresh that he was 'coming' out![/b]

Hmmm, who are we to believe, the FBI or the FBI?

The only reason that we have Agent Cavanaugh's heartless exchange with the unidentified girl on the phone, which I quoted above, was that they recorded everything and transcribed everything!

Where are these lies that Koresh told about coming out 5 times?

Have you ever been lied to by the government? Well you've just been lied to by them again!

No, I think his attorney Dick DeGuerin had convinced him that he had a real winning hand and that while he might stay in jail until after his trial, he would most likely be acquitted and be a celebrity, of sorts.

Even [u]more[/u] womenz, eh?

Remember the surviving Branch Davidians were tried for murdering federal agents and acquitted of those charges!

Only because the jury misunderstood the judge's instructions did the jury convict any of the others.

Most jurors thought the Davidians were going to get light sentences, if any at all.

Nope, that is not true. I once met David Koresh at a Gun Show in Austin.

At the time, Koresh and his 'gun dealer' buddy Paul Falla, would set up tables at gun shows and sell MREs and other types of survival items.

One of the novelties they sold, and if you've ever been to a gun show you've seen them, was a fake grenade on a stand, with a tag attached to the pin, bearing '#1.' Underneath was the legend 'Complaint Department, Take a number.'

That's what Koresh did with grenades!

If not, and the Davidians had live grenades, there would have been [u]no[/u] survivors of the disastrous ATF raid on February 28, 1993!

[img]http://www.antiwar.com/waco/waco4.jpg[/img]

Eric The(StillPizzed)Hun

[b]Quoted:
I think that what happened at waco was justified.[/b]

You think that KILLING CHILDREN is JUSTIFIED?
Would I ever like to get my hands on you.

no that is not what i meant!!! any parent who would alow thier kids to be in that type of enviroment shold be slapped. he had every chance to come out and put an end to it and not let anybody else  get hurt. he had the whole media there. any MAN would have done that but he hid behind the children. this was not like Ruby Ridge where Randy and his family were ravaged. i have seen the tapes they did have full  auto weapons at the compound. no doubt about that.

Post from

This was precisely like Ruby Ridge - families killed by federal law enforcement agencies run amok!

How many of Koresh's children should have died in order for it to be 'like Ruby Ridge'?

There is no tape of which I am aware that shows the Davidians with any full auto weapons at their [u]Church[/u]! Not 'compound'!

And please remember to get [u]that[/u] right!

The Branch Davidian Church known as Mt Carmel Church was a [b]church[/b] and not, repeat, not a [b]'compound'![/b]

Government law enforcement agencies have a real tendency to call anything a 'compound' when they wish to kill everyone inside!

Well, except for the Kennedy 'Compounds'! Both the one in Hyannisport, Mass., and their former one in Palm Springs, Florida! [:D]

Eric The(Knowledgeable)Hun[>]:)]

I stand corrected.  You'll have to forgive me, I was a mindless, brainwashed High School kid at the time, though I remember the day the compound burned vividly.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

No problem.  I was brainwashed before I came here too!

Peace.

What's your excuse for clintons second term???

Whats [b]"MY"[/b] excuse for for the Klintons second term? Limp Wristed Leftist Liberals, dumb Soccer Mom's and the herds of mindless idiots, that let the media do their thinking for them. That's [b]"MY"[/b] Excuse!

After what the FBI did in the way it started the hostile assault of their church, why would they believe anything that the FBI promises?

The only downside to standing up to JBT is, you have to survive to prove you were wronged.

The FBI knew this fact of life.

[img]www.antiwar.com/waco/waco7.jpg[/img]

SSD