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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:52:34 AM EDT
[#1]
Man shoots at helicopter with AR anybody?
... a very similar thread. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:54:29 AM EDT
[#2]
Paul: I can't add a poll to anyone else's thread.
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:08:19 AM EDT
[#3]
Kewl, I got here before the poll - sorry.
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:12:12 AM EDT
[#4]
I'm all for retrieving the bodies of fallen comrades, but at what price?
If it jeopardizes the living fighters, and thus the "cause", then it's counter-productive. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:15:52 AM EDT
[#5]
Well, frankly, I cannot say what I would do in such a situation. I've never been faced with it, having never been in battle.
I understand the desire to bring back the body of a fallen comrade, but I also understand that under some circumstances such an attempt might be pure folly and only add to the number of dead and dying. Get out of harm's way first, then calculate what the costs would be for retrieving the body. Surely the combat would end at some point. [b]Good question:[/b] If the dead body was yours, how many men would you want to die in attempting to retrieve your lifeless body? My answer would be none. The Lord would have everything of me by then that I cared about. The 'package' will serve me no further use at all in this present world. But the best answer is: Don't let your friends die in the first place! Let the enemy question whether they should retrieve [u]their[/u] dead! Eric The(Thoughtful)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:16:52 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: I'm all for retrieving the bodies of fallen comrades, but at what price? If it jeopardizes the living fighters, and thus the "cause", then it's counter-productive. i agree. There is no reason a "rescue" can not be done after the area is "safe". But by all means bring them home! mike |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:19:14 AM EDT
[#7]
Bring him home. His family would appreciate your efforts.
-T. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:22:04 AM EDT
[#8]
its hard for some civvies to understand. there isnt an explanation for this. its just what warriors do.
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:22:34 AM EDT
[#9]
I don't know Kpel308 , maybe it's something that has to be added to the alloy in the crucible where Marines are forged. I think I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I left a comrade-in-arms behind, even in extremis.
Pain is fleeting, life is short, shame lasts a lifetime... [marines] |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:25:22 AM EDT
[#10]
Retrieving and rescuing are 2 far different things. How do you rescue a dead body? From what are you rescuing him from? You rescue a wounded fighter. You also make sure all the dead are brought back home when you can and when it is reasonably safe.
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:27:25 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: "......some people think it is idiotic to try to bring back the body of a dead American fighting man." Let's just say that I disagree with that sentiment. [size=6][red][b][i]SEMPER FI![/i][/b][/red][/size=6] I agree with you 100%! Those who disagree with you don't understand that there is an unwritten "contract" in combat that "states" that you and your team members are a fighting body....and nobody would leave behind a part of "their body" that has been "shot-off" I am glad to see there are men like you still around. And it is refreshing to know that as long as others like you are with me,my dead body will reach my sons for burial...instead of it being left behind for desecration by the enemy. [red][size=6]Airborne.....All The Way![/red][/size=6] [;)] |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:28:44 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Bring him home. His family would appreciate your efforts. -T. Would they think it was worth the DEATH of someone else's son to retrieve his CORPSE?? |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:33:42 AM EDT
[#13]
Leave him. He's not worth dying for Seems to me this option is phrased in a classic propaganda style. There is NO "Him" in a CORPSE! "He's" only worth the SACRIFICE of more lives if "He's" still there. "He" ain't in his body anymore! |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:35:52 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Quoted: Bring him home. His family would appreciate your efforts. -T. Would they think it was worth the DEATH of someone else's son to retrieve his CORPSE?? If it were my son who gave his life while trying to retrieve his friends CORPSE, I would greive for my child, but I would know that he died for a friend. And I would be very proud to call him my son. -T. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:38:32 AM EDT
[#15]
By all means rescue all injured comrades, but It is a poor commander indeed who would risk his men to retrieve a corpse. Let the fighting die down and go back certainly, but to risk mens lives simply for the sake of retrieving the dead is foolhardy and reckless. The lives of Americans who can make a difference is worth more than the empty shell of those who have finished doing so.
I understand that those in certain military services may see this as harsh and abhorent, but it is not. It is simple logic. I would be major pissed if someone got killed coming after my corpse and I sure would not want that on my conscience in the afterlife. I would be even more pissed if it was one of my kids getting killed for the same purpose and I know I could never look the parents of the needlessly killed soldier in the face if I was the CO ordering this. If you are not sure, fine go back and make sure, but to risk others when noone will benefit from it is obscene. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:38:39 AM EDT
[#16]
Other people may not see it that way, Duncan. I assure you that I do not. I did not intentionally "propagandize" that statement. I reiterated my impression of what was being said in the other thread, and I tried to phrase the two choices similarly.
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:47:11 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Other people may not see it that way, Duncan. I assure you that I do not. I did not intentionally "propagandize" that statement. I reiterated my impression of what was being said in the other thread, and I tried to phrase the two choices similarly. Thanks for your response kpel, and I aprieciate the calm manner in which you responded to my post, given the emotions this topic generates. I have risked my life in the past to save others, but I do not think I would do the same if I knew my buddy was dead. I would try to get those who got him, go back with overwhelming force yes, but in the heat of battle risk all for a corpse? No. Nor, (if I was commander), would I expend combat assets for the dead. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:49:43 AM EDT
[#18]
its amazing to me that anyone would have to think about that.
its not so much id want my body retreived. its about your family and closure. its also about brotherhood and not leaving your COMRADE OF ARMS behind. i hope id never have to share the same battlefield with someone who would leave my body behind to be defiled by the enemy and the pain my family would feel in knowing that. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:53:02 AM EDT
[#19]
Just two words:
Semper Fidelis. [i][b][size=5]Always[/size=5] Faithful.[/b][/i] |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:59:14 AM EDT
[#20]
There's certainly an unwritten rule that you don't leave anybody behind, but there's also an unwritten (and written) rule that the mission is more important than any one person.
If you're in an eight man squad and one man goes down, you might be able to extract his body without jeopardizing the mission. But what if another goes down? And then one more? And more after that? What's the last man supposed to do- carry seven bodies out with him? |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 9:03:22 AM EDT
[#21]
Considering what the Somalis did to the bodies of our men that did get left behind in the "Mog", I would surely risk my life to not leave the body of a fallen brother in the hands of the enemy. I hope that the men I was fighting with would do the same for me... lest my kids see the corpse of their father swollen and being drug down the streets of some shithole country.
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Posted: 7/28/2002 9:05:19 AM EDT
[#22]
Bring them home. It has been thirty years ago, but people are still searching in Vietnam.. Bring them home.
I wouldn't want anyone comming after me, but I would damn sure go after someone else if it was at all plausible. Assumming you weren't in the middle of a firefight. I mean you are already in a war , you could die at any time anyways, so you might as well go after those guys so that they won't be left behind. You still get to kill the enemy and its still part of the same battle in most cases. And when it comes to the scenario in Black Hawk Down those Rangers weren't going anywhere anyways. Ben |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 9:16:22 AM EDT
[#23]
I am here from that other thread. As for me like I said bobby trap my body and let me go on killing the enemy. But I get the take that for some guys it is really important that there body be returned to family. If this was the case with I guy I served with, I would like to think I would do my best to bring him back.(but I do not feel I would want my buds ever getting hurt to get my body, leave me for the buzzards)It just is not a big deal for me, and is something I would discuss with family before or while in the combat zone to make them understand, and they would. Anyway like I said, if it was a big deal for a friend in combat I would do my best to honor his feelings. That is one thing you cannot escape, his last wishes. But to make it part of a Creed , again, it is a no win debate as some say yes get my body , and some say forget it, take care of yourself old friend.
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Posted: 7/28/2002 9:37:34 AM EDT
[#24]
You're only assuming dead because that was the premise of the question. How do you really know he is dead? Yeah, I know, you see him blown all apart. Not always that simple. If you are close enough to be sure he's dead, then most likely you can get him and bring him back. If you're not close enough to be sure, then you aren't sure, are you? Then, you had better assume he's a live brother in arms. You don't intend to leave live ones, do you? Unlike "certain" administrations for "expediency" or future "opportunities."
Guys bailing out of burning aircraft could be assumed dead. But some Marines assumed otherwise and came and got me. Thanks guys. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 9:43:45 AM EDT
[#25]
I have not served in the military (yet...I'm still young though). However, I have watched several friends discuss this EXACT topic. They are current USMC officers and one recently discharged NCO.
Basically what they agreed is that it helps EVERYONE fight better and do their job if they KNOW that no matter what happens, they will come home (even it it's as a corpse). They know that come hell or high water, their buddies will not leave them. They also all agreed, however, that the heat of a firefight may not be the time to go in and grab your fallen comrade if he's not in any immediate danger of being taken or otherwise desecrated. Win the battle, kick the crap out of the guys that killed him, THEN go bring him home. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 9:47:05 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: You're only assuming dead because that was the premise of the question. How do you really know he is dead? Yeah, I know, you see him blown all apart. Not always that simple. If you are close enough to be sure he's dead, then most likely you can get him and bring him back. If you're not close enough to be sure, then you aren't sure, are you? Then, you had better assume he's a live brother in arms. You don't intend to leave live ones, do you? Unlike "certain" administrations for "expediency" or future "opportunities." Guys bailing out of burning aircraft could be assumed dead. But some Marines assumed otherwise and came and got me. Thanks guys. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 9:49:43 AM EDT
[#27]
Ok, so let me see if I get this straight:
Your buddy is good enough to drink with, good enough to train with, good enough to sweat with, good enough to fight with, good enough to bleed with, you place your trust and life in his arms and his in yours, but some how when he is dead-he is not good enough to bleed for, he is not good enough to bring back home, the very home he was sent to defend, the same home he died for, the people he died defending it for, even yourself. If you cannot give everything you have to honor the memory and sacrifice of your buddy, then I do not know what you are fighting for. You discredit all that America and her warriors stand for. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 9:58:07 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Ok, so let me see if I get this straight: Your buddy is good enough to drink with, good enough to train with, good enough to sweat with, good enough to fight with, good enough to bleed with, you place your trust and life in his arms and his in yours, but some how when he is dead-he is not good enough to bleed for, he is not good enough to bring back home, the very home he was sent to defend, the same home he died for, the people he died defending it for, even yourself. If you cannot give everything you have to honor the memory and sacrifice of your buddy, then I do not know what you are fighting for. You discredit all that America and her warriors stand for. If it can be done without loss of life fine. "He" is no longer there. His body is 180 pounds of MEAT! NOT worth a life! America stands for "Life, Liberty and......". At least she used too. Now she stands for whatever the NWO crowd wants her to...... |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 10:03:05 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: If it can be done without loss of life fine. "He" is no longer there. His body is 180 pounds of MEAT! NOT worth a life! America stands for "Life, Liberty and......". At least she used too. Now she stands for whatever the NWO crowd wants her to...... I'm pretty sure that Gen. Washington, Gen. Scott, Gen. Lee, Gen. Grant, or Gen. Patton would make sure that "their men" were recovered if need be. Your buddy Kofi would probably do the same math as you. "what's in it for me............" |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 10:04:52 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Quoted: Ok, so let me see if I get this straight: Your buddy is good enough to drink with, good enough to train with, good enough to sweat with, good enough to fight with, good enough to bleed with, you place your trust and life in his arms and his in yours, but some how when he is dead-he is not good enough to bleed for, he is not good enough to bring back home, the very home he was sent to defend, the same home he died for, the people he died defending it for, even yourself. If you cannot give everything you have to honor the memory and sacrifice of your buddy, then I do not know what you are fighting for. You discredit all that America and her warriors stand for. If it can be done without loss of life fine. "He" is no longer there. His body is 180 pounds of MEAT! NOT worth a life! America stands for "Life, Liberty and......". At least she used too. Now she stands for whatever the NWO crowd wants her to...... Well, if you have never served or don't plan on it, then you will have nothing to worry about. If you are not a ranger and don't plan on being one, then you have nothing to worry about. Otherwise this is an esoteric arguement between people who know what the score is and those who are still sitting on the sidelines. Your point is moot, and the creed still rings true in the hearts of America's warriors. There is nothing that your pillow-bitting, lolly-pop licking, limp-wristed, nancy boy pissing and moaning will accomplish. Get over you so-called mental superiority and let those who will serve and sacrifice do it with out your criticism. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 10:16:04 AM EDT
[#31]
As was stated before I certainly understand the Esprit decorps that goes along with serving in these elite units. I think we have however lost the point in the emotions. I certainly think any injured people should be retrieved. I also think that all reasonable efforts should be made to recover our dead. The key is however " reasonable ". It is a risk/reward assesment. How many lives is it worth to recover the deceased? Where I have a problem is when recovering the dead takes precedence over wasting lives on non military objectives. I would not as I said be able to face the parents of a dead soldier who died to recover another soldier I knew to be already dead. I know others feel differently, but that is my belief. I know many soldiers would feel the need to retrieve the bodies at expense of their own lives. It is up to their officers to weigh the risk / reward and make logical sound decisions based on the welfare of the operation, unit and men.
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Posted: 7/28/2002 11:53:09 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Ok, so let me see if I get this straight: Your buddy is good enough to drink with, good enough to train with, good enough to sweat with, good enough to fight with, good enough to bleed with, you place your trust and life in his arms and his in yours, but some how when he is dead-he is not good enough to bleed for, he is not good enough to bring back home, the very home he was sent to defend, the same home he died for, the people he died defending it for, even yourself. If you cannot give everything you have to honor the memory and sacrifice of your buddy, then I do not know what you are fighting for. You discredit all that America and her warriors stand for. If it can be done without loss of life fine. "He" is no longer there. His body is 180 pounds of MEAT! NOT worth a life! America stands for "Life, Liberty and......". At least she used too. Now she stands for whatever the NWO crowd wants her to...... Well, if you have never served or don't plan on it, then you will have nothing to worry about. If you are not a ranger and don't plan on being one, then you have nothing to worry about. Otherwise this is an esoteric arguement between people who know what the score is and those who are still sitting on the sidelines. Your point is moot, and the creed still rings true in the hearts of America's warriors. There is nothing that your pillow-bitting, lolly-pop licking, limp-wristed, nancy boy pissing and moaning will accomplish. Get over you so-called mental superiority and let those who will serve and sacrifice do it with out your criticism. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 12:04:18 PM EDT
[#33]
Would you retreive the body if it was your Wife? YOUR son? YOUR daughter? YOUR brother?
All some of us have are the people we serve with. They are our only family. I would not want them to die to retreive my body, it means little to me in this life. But i could not sleep knowing i had left them behind. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 12:22:12 PM EDT
[#34]
[b]Honor[/b] - Integrity, responsibility, accountibility.
[b]Courage[/b] - Do the right thing, in the right way, for the right reasons. [b]Commitment[/b] - Devotion to the Corps and my fellow Marines. Marines... 1. Obey the law. 2. Lead by example. 3. Respect themselves and others. 4. Maintain a high standard of integrity. 5. Support and defend the Constitution. 6. Uphold special trust and confidence. 7. Place faith and honor above all else. 8. Honor fellow Marines, the Corps, Country, and Family. Nobody is going to be left behind. We came here together, and if necessary we will stay here together, but if one of us makes it home, then we are all going home! Death before Dishonor |
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