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Posted: 7/27/2002 5:32:57 AM EDT
[#1]
oh crap!
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Posted: 7/27/2002 6:17:23 AM EDT
[#2]
The pilot should have stayed in his plane and pointed it towards a safer location. IMHO
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Posted: 7/27/2002 6:19:26 AM EDT
[#3]
[url]http://www.msnbc.com/news/786332.asp[/url]
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Posted: 7/27/2002 6:21:54 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: The pilot should have stayed in his plane and pointed it towards a safer location. IMHO Look at the photo--the wingtip is practically dragging the ground, and the canopy is still in place--those guys didn't leave until the last possible second. I'd say they did all they could, considering they had no engines (or at least thats how the story makes it sound.) |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 6:26:25 AM EDT
[#5]
These new fancy shmancy russkie jets are copied as good as they can to look "something" like our planes.....on the outside !!!!! On the inside the dash still looks like a sopwith camel. His altimeter was probably too stained with vodka (or he was) to work.
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Posted: 7/27/2002 6:30:46 AM EDT
[#6]
They're gonna wish they stayed with the plane after this is all said and done!
Having been inside of one of these Russian fighters....what Spectre said is not at all off the mark. |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 7:24:16 AM EDT
[#7]
Man that is to bad.
I think they need to increase the altitude they do their airshows at. That is what 3 or 4 Su-27's which have crashed in the last 10 years at airshows?? |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 7:24:17 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: These new fancy shmancy russkie jets are copied as good as they can to look "something" like our planes.....on the outside !!!!! On the inside the dash still looks like a sopwith camel. His altimeter was probably too stained with vodka (or he was) to work. Well, our shmancy fancy f-117 Stealth Fighter broke its wings off last(?) year at a airshow. Military planes go down all the time. You just never hear about it unless it is caught on film, or it happens to wipe out hoards of people. Flying is a risky business, especially when your pushing the envelope to give the crowd their monies worth. Remember that entire team of Air Force Thunderbirds that followed their flight leader right into the ground? Shit happens. |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 7:29:23 AM EDT
[#9]
These new fancy shmancy russkie jets are copied as good as they can to look "something" like our planes.....on the outside !!!!! On the inside the dash still looks like a sopwith camel. SU-27 cockpit [img]http://hep2.physics.arizona.edu/~savin/ram/su27cocpt.jpg[/img] F-22 cockpit [img]http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2081/F22_cockpit.gif[/img] Looks like an accurate statement to me. [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/biggrin2.gif[/img] |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 7:51:48 AM EDT
[#10]
Even at the Cleveland air show, an F-16 pilot had to eject when his single engine sucked in a sea gull. Sadly, he had no altitude and landed on the rocks by Lake Erie. Now the Thunderbirds never land there. Also, a Blue Angel clipped a building, losing a small chunk of wing...and just kept going, back to a naval base for repairs. I didn't see where these Flanker jockeys ejected, as the canopy was intact upon impact, but if they did, I imagine they will be doing the "Siberian circuit" from now on.
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Posted: 7/27/2002 8:19:16 AM EDT
[#11]
It's always very risky doing low altitude, low speed aerobatics in planes designed for high speed airflow over the wings and control surfaces. They're designed to go very fast in a straight line and not do slow loops. A lot of irreplaceable WW2 warbirds have been destroyed at airshows by pilots used to flying lighter planes with a lot less wing loading. Fortunately for most of these pilots flying MIG and Sukhoi fighters, they have the best ejection seats in the world. They're rocket powered "zero-zero" seats that work at zero altitude and zero airspeed. The Western nations only recently developed these kinds of seats, within the last 20 years or less.
The first air show I ever went to at about 3 years of age, a pilot in a Piper Cub or something hooked a wing on a power line and cartwheeled across the field in front of us. That is my earliest memory, from over 50 years ago. |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 8:20:54 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: SU-27 cockpit [img]http://hep2.physics.arizona.edu/~savin/ram/su27cocpt.jpg[/img] F-22 cockpit [img]http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2081/F22_cockpit.gif[/img] Looks like an accurate statement to me. Hint: Geocities doesn't like its bandwidth being used as a photo host, hence the red X. Of course, you're being completely unfair here, comparing two aircraft that are decades apart. Why not compare the SU-27 cockpit above to that of an F-15A? [img]http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/meas2-1.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 9:18:33 AM EDT
[#13]
Oh SHIT!
The plane was in the sky for about two minutes, but then it appeared to go silent and headed toward the ground and banked left – its wingtip clipping trees and touching another plane on the ground before it crashed. The Russian-built Sukhoi Su-27's wing clipped the ground as it failed to come out of a difficult rolling dive at the show outside the western city of Lviv, close to the border with Poland. [url]http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=578&ncid=578&e=2&u=/nm/20020727/ts_nm/ukraine_crash_dc[/url] [img]http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20020727/i/1027782996.3623944268.jpg[/img] [img]http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20020727/i/1027776524.3489734704.jpg[/img] [img]http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20020727/i/1027774933.4093681723.jpg[/img] [img]http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20020727/s/1027784869.2684477461.jpg[/img] [img]http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20020727/s/1027781739.3288449103.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 9:26:33 AM EDT
[#14]
Truely horrible.
[url=http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sl&g=events/ts/072702ukrainecrash&e=1]A Yahoo slideshow of the crash[/url] |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 11:14:39 AM EDT
[#15]
[img]http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20020727/i/1027775667.3892355125.jpg[/img]
[img]http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon20.gif[/img] |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 11:29:33 AM EDT
[#16]
[USA]
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Posted: 7/27/2002 11:36:16 AM EDT
[#17]
..damn!
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Posted: 7/27/2002 12:05:20 PM EDT
[#18]
CRAP!!! families are in my prayers!
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Posted: 7/27/2002 12:48:58 PM EDT
[#19]
The speculation is that a engine quit at a crucial moment, causing the plane to yaw sharply in the direction of the ground-and the crowd.
The Ukranian air force has severe budget problems, and has problems maintaining their aircraft. Russia considers them just another cash customer so they have to pay the same price for Sukhoi parts as people like the Chinese and Indians do. That is why the Ukraine wants to be a part of NATO so bad. If they become part of NATO they can qualify for US financial aid. |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 2:26:09 PM EDT
[#20]
MSN reports 78 dead.
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Posted: 7/27/2002 2:50:37 PM EDT
[#21]
That's a really horrible thing. I wonder if they take the same precautions we do during U.S. airshows with keeping people away from the "box"...
Because of this story, there is a poll on [URL]cnn.com[/URL] asking if air shows should be completely banned. That's a really stupid question. Of course not. Has anyone here ever seen the Air & Sea Show held in Ft. Lauderdale every year? That's a great show. |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 3:02:18 PM EDT
[#22]
Geez, those pictures are nasty (the body part ones). I think pictures like that should be reserved for sites like rotton.com.
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Posted: 7/27/2002 3:14:51 PM EDT
[#23]
Yes air forces of any nations lose lots of airplanes all the time. I remember a few while I did my USAF tour in Japan. There were 4 of our pilots ( 2 pilots and navigator) that were unfortunate and plenty of Japanese F-15J, F-1s pilots that also were lost at sea. What do you expect when the plane we are flying are built by the lowest bidders. Makes you wonder, but our Eagles, Vipers and Hornets are still the best out there, because we have AWACS and RJs. No one can touch us as long as we have the great eyes in the sky. I'm sad about the lives lost at that airshow, but that is one SU-27 less that we have to worry about. JTM
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Posted: 7/27/2002 3:15:32 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Geez, those pictures are nasty (the body part ones). I think pictures like that should be reserved for sites like rotton.com. Not to flame! Reality is a bitch. But I would much rather see and know the reality then be told a sugar coated version of the events since it might make a difference for the better sometime in the future. It is a shame the lessons learned at the airshow in Germany were not remembered. The flight paths should have remained forward and parallel to the crowd |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 4:05:43 PM EDT
[#25]
There are aeronautical trade magazines that list the monthly air losses of the various airforces around the world. Includes what happened, fatalities and tail numbers.
We lose stuff ALL the time. As pointed out there are several F-117s lost out of the original 54 or so purchased. None were shot down. Either mechanical failure or pilot error. The one lost in the Balkens is questionable. The SU-27 may have been doing its "tail-slide" or "cobra" maneuver where it literally stop in midair. If you flame an engine at that point its over. |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 5:45:26 PM EDT
[#26]
I watched an airshow at the Dayton airport on the 21st, and not once did an airplane cross over the crowd. That is how it should always be done.
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Posted: 7/27/2002 6:09:01 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Quoted: SU-27 cockpit [img]http://hep2.physics.arizona.edu/~savin/ram/su27cocpt.jpg[/img] F-22 cockpit [img]http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2081/F22_cockpit.gif[/img] Looks like an accurate statement to me. Hint: Geocities doesn't like its bandwidth being used as a photo host, hence the red X. Of course, you're being completely unfair here, comparing two aircraft that are decades apart. Why not compare the SU-27 cockpit above to that of an F-15A? [img]http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/meas2-1.jpg[/img] Uh, the F15A was deployed in July, 1972. The SU-27 was deployed about 1985 as I recall. You're also not making a fair comparison. [;)] |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 6:35:36 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Uh, the F15A was deployed in July, 1972. The SU-27 was deployed about 1985 as I recall. You're also not making a fair comparison. [;)] Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are incorrect. The first F-15 to enter service did so with the 58th Tactical Training Wing in November, 1974. The first operational unit to receive the F-15 was the 48th Fighter Interceptor Squadron in January, [b]1982[/b] The first operational soviet unit to recieve flankers did so in 1984. The first ever flight of an F-15 was in 1972. The first ever flight of an Su-27 was in 1977. Both design programs date from the 1960s. |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 6:45:26 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Even at the Cleveland air show, an F-16 pilot had to eject when his single engine sucked in a sea gull. Sadly, he had no altitude and landed on the rocks by Lake Erie. Now the Thunderbirds never land there. Also, a Blue Angel clipped a building, losing a small chunk of wing...and just kept going, back to a naval base for repairs. I didn't see where these Flanker jockeys ejected, as the canopy was intact upon impact, but if they did, I imagine they will be doing the "Siberian circuit" from now on. Probably the US suffers less injury because weren't allot of safety regulations but in place after the Italian jets crashed at a U.S. air base in Germany in 1988, killing 70 and injuring at least 400. Even here in Seattle, for SeaFair, the Blue Angeles' route was changed, and people always bitch about it. But I guess it is better then the alternative... As aside note, after Saturday's crash, Ukraine's president fired the commander of the air force and the top officer from the 14th Air Corps, to which the jet belonged. |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 6:45:37 PM EDT
[#30]
BTW, here's an F-15C cockpit:
[img]http://209.133.73.63/AWA/AWA_001-100/AWA_011-020/walk20_F-15C/images_Danny_Deters/F-15E_01.jpg[/img] And here's a Flanker-B cockpit: [img]http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/su27/images/su27_7.jpg[/img] They appear quite similar, don't they? Lots of analog instruments, and a single MFD... |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 7:15:23 PM EDT
[#31]
1) As for airplanes and crowds, IIRC that plane only headed for the crowd after it was out of control. At that pont, it's all physics, and almost a crapshoot..
2) I believe Su-27's eject their pilots through the canopy (like an Intruder (USN A-6)), hence the canopy was still on. Also, Russian ejector seats don't have the same amount of 'kick' as a US-made seat (or so one of my co-workers, an ex USN pilot, tells me), so they had a little less time than one of ours would... 3) The Russians never went for the 'glass cockpit' system. However, the Su27 is a 'fly-by-wire' aircraft, on par with an early F-14 (minus swing wings and the Phoenix). Also, that was probably an Su30 (MSNBC says 'looks like a Flanker, moves like a Flanker, it's a Flanker. Problem: Su27s don't have 2 pilots. Su-30s (see the 'China gunning for US carrier' thread) do.). Much better plane than an 85-vintage '27. The difference is comparable to 'F-15C vs F-15E'. These are not 'junk' planes, and the Ukranians aren't your average 3rd-world camel jockeys... |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 7:25:23 PM EDT
[#32]
They just showed a video on the evening news. This thing was nose into the ground, the fuselage at about a 45 degree angle, sliding backwards when the crew ejected. It had not exploded yet.
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Posted: 7/27/2002 7:34:37 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: 2) I believe Su-27's eject their pilots through the canopy (like an Intruder (USN A-6)), hence the canopy was still on. Also, Russian ejector seats don't have the same amount of 'kick' as a US-made seat (or so one of my co-workers, an ex USN pilot, tells me), so they had a little less time than one of ours would... There's been video that shows the ejection. While I'm sure the sequence began before impact, the pilots didn't actually get out of the plane until it had impacted and began sliding across the tarmac. One crewman remained in frame, and I didn't see a chute deploy before he disappeared behind a building. |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 7:54:35 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Quoted: Uh, the F15A was deployed in July, 1972. The SU-27 was deployed about 1985 as I recall. You're also not making a fair comparison. [;)] Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are incorrect. The first F-15 to enter service did so with the 58th Tactical Training Wing in November, 1974. The first operational unit to receive the F-15 was the 48th Fighter Interceptor Squadron in January, [b]1982[/b] The first operational soviet unit to recieve flankers did so in 1984. The first ever flight of an F-15 was in 1972. The first ever flight of an Su-27 was in 1977. Both design programs date from the 1960s. What we got here is... failure communicate. We're both throwing around a lot of different terms, i.e., deploy, deliver, etc. I elected to use the official Air Force fact sheet on the F15 in my quote: [url]http://www.af.mil/news/factsheets/F_15_Eagle.html[/url] You will see various dates, but at the bottom it states a deployment date of July, 1972. Nowhere is your 1982 date mentioned. But, the bottom line is, whatever. [rolleyes] |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 8:18:25 PM EDT
[#35]
Sure makes the fire extinguisher incident at Bulletfest III this year inconsequential.
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Posted: 7/27/2002 8:57:37 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Sure makes the fire extinguisher incident at Bulletfest III this year inconsequential. I dunno about that. From what I heard, a couple people almost got killed, and a car was damaged. |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 9:39:05 PM EDT
[#37]
Holy crap!!!
As far as the SU-27 is concerned. It is a good plane. Just becase it is Russian does not mean it sucks. It broke a couple of the F-15's records in speed. The Naval variant is the SU-33 and has folding wings and a small set of "wings" just behind the cockpit. |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 9:41:14 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: There's been video that shows the ejection. While I'm sure the sequence began before impact, the pilots didn't actually get out of the plane until it had impacted and began sliding across the tarmac. One crewman remained in frame, and I didn't see a chute deploy before he disappeared behind a building. Sounds like the crew did all they could to avert the tragedy. Gutsy, to say the least. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:21:14 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: You will see various dates, but at the bottom it states a deployment date of July, 1972. Nowhere is your 1982 date mentioned. But, the bottom line is, whatever. [rolleyes] I see your af.mil, and raise you a boeing.com: [url]http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/history/mdc/eagle.htm[/url] First [b]flight[/b] of the aircraft was July 27, 1972. Beyond that: The first Eagle entered service in November 1974 with the 58th Tactical Training Wing at Luke Air Force Base, Ariz. The first Air Force air defense squadron to transition to the F-15 was the 48th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron at Langley Air Force Base, Va., in January 1982. By 1989, more than 1,200 Eagles were in service; most were built by McDonnell Douglas in St. Louis, and more than 110 were built by Mitsubishi of Japan. By the way, I found this on the site you linked to: The first F-15A flight was made in July 1972, and the first flight of the two-seat F-15B (formerly TF-15A) trainer was made in July 1973. The first Eagle (F-15B) was delivered in November 1974. In January 1976, the first Eagle destined for a combat squadron was delivered. Now if you're still convinced you're correct, why don't you actually try to find out what the first fighter squadron to transition to F-15s was, and when. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:34:00 AM EDT
[#40]
Here is the cockpit of the F-22
[img]http://www.f22fighter.com/cockpit001.gif[/img] |
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