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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:00:27 AM EDT
[#1]
Hero or not, he was DOING HIS JOB to protect our rights, defend freedom, and make the world a safer place.
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:01:17 AM EDT
[#2]
I also think that the definition of "hero" is being watered down. If a man put himself in harms way to fight for the American way of life, he is a Patriot. If the same man dies, he is still a patriot. If the man dies doing something that directly saved many of his fellow troops, then yes, he is a hero. This could be taking a machine-gun nest, a difficult and dangerous bombing mission, or diving on a grenade. Just taking a bullet doing the same thing 99% of your buddies are doing does NOT make you a hero.
Now, this is not saying that the fund is not a good idea. I think it is a very good idea, and want to impress upon everyone that I belive that we should ALWAYS take care of the families of those who have fallen. Also, I really don't think that this discussion in the other thread was out of line. I did not see anyone say anything bad about the guy. What would you consider something similar to a CIB? Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img] |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:02:22 AM EDT
[#3]
Not a hero, He was doing his job....
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:03:43 AM EDT
[#4]
No...Not a hero
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:05:17 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Personally, I think if you're not wearing a CIB or something like that, your opinion really isn't worth the bandwidth it would take to express it, but go ahead.... Hero's come from all walks of life. As far as a CIB goes. I personally know a guy who never left Ft. Bragg but got a CIB for Operation Urgent Fury (The invasion of Grenada). When you start asking who's a hero around here, it usually brings out all of the key board commando's so just prepare yourself to be pissed off. |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:06:46 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: I also think that the definition of "hero" is being watered down. If a man put himself in harms way to fight for the American way of life, he is a Patriot. If the same man dies, he is still a patriot. If the man dies doing something that directly saved many of his fellow troops, then yes, he is a hero. This could be taking a machine-gun nest, a difficult and dangerous bombing mission, or diving on a grenade. Just taking a bullet doing the same thing 99% of your buddies are doing does NOT make you a hero. Now, this is not saying that the fund is not a good idea. I think it is a very good idea, and want to impress upon everyone that I belive that we should ALWAYS take care of the families of those who have fallen. Also, I really don't think that this discussion in the other thread was out of line. I did not see anyone say anything bad about the guy. What would you consider something similar to a CIB? Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img] I was simply saying that having 'seen the elephant' lends a certain credibility to one's opinion. Truth be known, I mostly agree with your sentiments re: the word 'hero'. But I'm not going to stand there and say that a man who died for his country, especially BY HIS OWN FREE CHOICE (e.g. not a draftee) is not worthy of the term. QS |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:08:05 AM EDT
[#7]
I guess I'm the one who started this. Here is my text from the original post. I'll agree that that post wasn't a good place to post this, but I will stick to the argument:
In my book, heros are rare, and should be viewed with the utmost reverence. The military knows what makes a combat hero, and bestows the Congressional Medal of Honor on those it believes deserve it. Because an individual does great and honorable things, does not make him a hero. The military likewise, knows this and bestows lesser, but by no means dishonorable, titles on those it feels have deserved them (silver star winner, bronze star winner, purple heart recipient, etc). The term "hero", in my eyes, is equivelent to the Congressional Medal of Honor. The circumstanses and actions taken to achieve this level are enormous. Are we so PC that we cannot bestow an honor on someone that isn't the "ultimate" honor? Are we afraid that this will offend somebody. Calling everyone that deserves praise a hero, cheapens the term for those that truely deserve the title. Look, I'm not taking anything away from Spann. Probably a great guy, and his death was a tragic event for the Spann family. But he's not a "hero" in my book. Keep the fact that he was a CIA agent operating in a combat zone in mind when judging him. He was doing his job, and suffered the result of one of the risks inherent in his job. He was killed in the line of duty. He deserves to be treated with respect and honor, but I don't believe he's a hero. It cheapens the Shugharts of the world to call him one. |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:10:29 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: I guess I'm the one who started this. Here is my text from the original post. I'll agree that that post wasn't a good place to post this, but I will stick to the argument: In my book, heros are rare, and should be viewed with the utmost reverence. The military knows what makes a combat hero, and bestows the Congressional Medal of Honor on those it believes deserve it. Because an individual does great and honorable things, does not make him a hero. The military likewise, knows this and bestows lesser, but by no means dishonorable, titles on those it feels have deserved them (silver star winner, bronze star winner, purple heart recipient, etc). The term "hero", in my eyes, is equivelent to the Congressional Medal of Honor. The circumstanses and actions taken to achieve this level are enormous. Are we so PC that we cannot bestow an honor on someone that isn't the "ultimate" honor? Are we afraid that this will offend somebody. Calling everyone that deserves praise a hero, cheapens the term for those that truely deserve the title. Look, I'm not taking anything away from Spann. Probably a great guy, and his death was a tragic event for the Spann family. But he's not a "hero" in my book. Keep the fact that he was a CIA agent operating in a combat zone in mind when judging him. He was doing his job, and suffered the result of one of the risks inherent in his job. He was killed in the line of duty. He deserves to be treated with respect and honor, but I don't believe he's a hero. It cheapens the Shugharts of the world to call him one. Makes sense to me. He's still to be respected as a man who died for his country, even if he was no Audie Murphy. |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:18:48 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: I was simply saying that having 'seen the elephant' lends a certain credibility to one's opinion. Truth be known, I mostly agree with your sentiments re: the word 'hero'. But I'm not going to stand there and say that a man who died for his country, especially BY HIS OWN FREE CHOICE (e.g. not a draftee) is not worthy of the term. QS Well, I will stand up and say the word is being mis-used. And that cheapens the meaning of the word. Which in turn, cheapens the actions of real Heroes like Shugart and Gordon. What Spann did was very admirable. And I take nothing away from what he did, and how he died. I just hate to see the word Hero run into the ground like it has been lately. PS. no offence, but I think your comment on that thread about his widow being a hottie would probably cause more concern than a discussion of whether he is a hero or not. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img] |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:24:40 AM EDT
[#10]
None taken...... just an observation. - though I'd gladly rip the still-beating heart out of anyone's chest who tried to take advantage of that. [;)]
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:26:07 AM EDT
[#11]
There are different levels of heroism. That's why there are different medals to honor various levels of heroic acts. If the armed forces defined heroism as narrowly as some people in this thread, there would be only one medal for the performance of a heroic act. There wouldn't be a Navy Cross, A Silver Star or a Bronze Star. There would only be the MOH.
There are American cemetary's all over the world filled with hero's. Don't think so? Ask the men who survived to tell their stories. |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:36:11 AM EDT
[#12]
This is probably a discussion that needs to be had. 20 guys are pinned down by a machine gun nest. 1 guy jumps up, charges and takes it out. In my opinion, a "Hero", is someone who [b]knowingly[/b] goes "above and beyond" the call of duty. Useing my criteria, the firefighters who died, (putting flamesuit on), in 9/11 are NOT "Heros". They did their jobs. They were doing their duty. They did not rush into WTC "knowing" the buildings would come down. The guy who rushed the m/g nest did so "knowing" it would try to take him out. He is a "hero". The other 19, did their duty.
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:45:37 AM EDT
[#13]
[img]http://home.earthlink.net/~thegardenweasel/quietforums.jpg[/img]
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:49:51 AM EDT
[#14]
If that is directed at me, weasel, I think you misunderstood me. I think he is worthy of the title...though I do see both sides of the argument.
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:51:31 AM EDT
[#15]
LMFAO Garden...
In truth, I think that Veteran's forum would be a more appropriate name for that. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img] |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:55:06 AM EDT
[#16]
Hero.. or not.. hmm...
In My eyes the lowest postal clerk / cook that wakes up in the morning and puts on a military uniform is already leaps and bound above the sorry ass low lives that wake up at 12 noon to go protest this that or what ever is cool that day. Was this man "SIMPLY" doing his job? Yes. Did he earn my respect for "SIMPLY" doing his job? Yes Should this even be a question? No. |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:55:16 AM EDT
[#17]
Let's see, none of you were there when Mr. Spann was killed. (In Action I might mention)
All you have is what has come to via news sources and the net. So,I don't belive any of us are in a position to judge yeah or neah on Mr. Spann's status as a hero. Courage, self sacrifice, a willingness to do what has to be done, even if it is dangerous/distasteful, without regard for self is a bit closer to what a hero is. When any member of the board has the balls to leave his comfortable life/family behind to do what is required to secure the safety and freedom of us all, I will be much more likely to listen to what your opinion of what a hero is. |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:57:17 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: This is probably a discussion that needs to be had. 20 guys are pinned down by a machine gun nest. 1 guy jumps up, charges and takes it out. In my opinion, a "Hero", is someone who [b]knowingly[/b] goes "above and beyond" the call of duty. Useing my criteria, the firefighters who died, (putting flamesuit on), in 9/11 are NOT "Heros". They did their jobs. They were doing their duty. They did not rush into WTC "knowing" the buildings would come down. The guy who rushed the m/g nest did so "knowing" it would try to take him out. He is a "hero". The other 19, did their duty. if you think that a firefighter can't just say "fuck it, im not going in THERE!!!" then you are kidding yourself. their job is to save people, yes and to put their lives on the line... BUT their job is NEVER to give their lives. they had a job to do, and it was to help who they could. "who they could" didnt mean people at the top of a burning building... |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:57:35 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Let's see, none of you were there when Mr. Spann was killed. (In Action I might mention) All you have is what has come to via news sources and the net. So,I don't belive any of us are in a position to judge yeah or neah on Mr. Spann's status as a hero. Courage, self sacrifice, a willingness to do what has to be done, even if it is dangerous/distasteful, without regard for self is a bit closer to what a hero is. When any member of the board has the balls to leave his comfortable life/family behind to do what is required to secure the safety and freedom of us all, I will be much more likely to listen to what your opinion of what a hero is. Currently showing 14 years service on my LESs. Of that, 8 active. You should not paint with such a broad brush. I am quite sure a fairly large number of people on this forum are veterans. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img] |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:58:48 AM EDT
[#20]
I don't have any specific examples, but don't forget ordinary people doing extraordinary things, like pulling someone out of a burning car, saving a drowning child, etc.
Flight 93 comes to mind... |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:58:54 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Personally, I think if you're not wearing a CIB or something like that, your opinion really isn't worth the bandwidth it would take to express it, but go ahead.... If pro athletes can be heroes to so many, a guy who gives his life serving his country sure as hell can be. |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 10:58:59 AM EDT
[#22]
There are a million different ways to die. Anyone who gives their life in the line of duty to America is a hero. Sacrificing your life in service to your nation is an extreme act of heroism. Accepting a dangerous mission in service of your country qualifies you as nothing less than a hero.
There is no question in my mind whether or not Mike Spann was a "hero". There may be some question to his level of demonstrated valor. There's different levels of bravery. No he didn't jump on a live grenade to save some children. But a hero is someone who puts their own fear, will, and emotion aside for a greater cause. He surrendered his life for his country. He left his wife and children behind. I would have to think long and hard about choosing to leave my wife behind while I went on some foreign mission. |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 11:01:43 AM EDT
[#23]
Exactly DVD.
And Larry, that shows exactly why I try and point out that the definition of hero is being watered down and mis-used. Pro athletes are good at their job. They get paid well for it also. I sure as hell would not consider any of them heroes. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img] |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 11:01:56 AM EDT
[#24]
also, to me the act of choosing to be put in harms way for others or for the protection of your country makes you a hero in my book. my brother is my personal hero for driving an ambulance around the streets of houston putting his neck on the line for those who cannot help themselves. he's not charging any machinegunners nest, but he knows full well the dangers associated with his line of work (EMS and firefighting) and is willing to accept responsibility for his possible injury or death to save others. he may not be a hero to you, but hes mine...
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Posted: 7/19/2002 11:03:15 AM EDT
[#25]
Also :
Why does this man HAVE TO BE or not BE a hero? Can A man no longer [b][u]command [/b][/u]respect from simply serving? Not every one can be a "hero" hell .. not very one should be a hero. Was this mans life meaningless if it found out that he was not a "hero" I agree that the Title is being watered down lately. but this man served with honor and thats good enough for me.. Cluster |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 11:03:44 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Personally, I think if you're not wearing a CIB or something like that, your opinion really isn't worth the bandwidth it would take to express it, but go ahead.... What drivel! He's still to be respected as a man who died for his country, even if he was no Audie Murphy. At least this part makes sense. |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 11:04:14 AM EDT
[#27]
The word hero has been thrown about in a very nonchalant manner lately and , as such, does a disservice to the likes of Gordon and Shugart and all those who have earned that title. Speaking from the perspective of a member of the Armed Forces (former active duty and current reservist)who has been in harm's way, I don't believe the word 'hero' applies in this instance. Anyone who enlists in the Armed Forces is well aware of the fact that they may be called upon to stand in harm's way in defense of their Country and, quite possibly, die in the performance of that duty. It's an accepted part of the job. I for one would not call myself a hero for dying for my country because I knew the risks and chose to go that path. Mike Spann also knew the risks that were inherent in his chosen profession, just as every other individual who chooses to serve in the Armed Forces does . The fact that he died does not constitute a hero. If merely dying for one's country constitutes a hero, What about the other soldiers that have died in Operation Enduring Freedom? Do we not do them an injustice by not referring to them as heroes also? All I'm saying is that the word hero should be reserved for those who intentionally make the supreme sacrifice so that their fellow soldiers or civilians may live....An example would be Gordon and Shugart
[url]http://www.marinescoutsniper.com/shughartgordon.html[/url] or the Civilians of Flight 93. My intention is not to take away anything from Mike Spann. He is a Partiot and personifies the best this country has to offer. I truly feel for his family and those of all who have died in defense of this nation. |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 11:11:02 AM EDT
[#28]
Maybe a good definition would be someone that says "Other people are in immediate danger of being killed or seriously injured. Even though I make get killed or injured, I have to do something. Here goes..." and dives in to help.
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Posted: 7/19/2002 11:17:56 AM EDT
[#29]
I don't see the difference between putting your life at risk and losing it while gathering intelligence v. being killed in a gunfight. Gathering intelligence is as necessary to winning a war as being able to shoot a guy in the eye at 1000 yards. Mike Spann could've been sitting in a law office or software development firm 20 minutes from his home and family, but decided to risk his life for his country & was killed while carrying out his duty under conditions that he sure knew might keep him from seeing his wife and family again.
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Posted: 7/19/2002 11:32:43 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: I don't see the difference between putting your life at risk and losing it while gathering intelligence v. being killed in a gunfight. Gathering intelligence is as necessary to winning a war as being able to shoot a guy in the eye at 1000 yards. Mike Spann could've been sitting in a law office or software development firm 20 minutes from his home and family, but decided to risk his life for his country & was killed while carrying out his duty under conditions that he sure knew might keep him from seeing his wife and family again. Exactly! Quoted: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: Personally, I think if you're not wearing a CIB or something like that, your opinion really isn't worth the bandwidth it would take to express it, but go ahead.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What drivel! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He's still to be respected as a man who died for his country, even if he was no Audie Murphy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At least this part makes sense. Eat me, [newbie]. |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 11:39:43 AM EDT
[#31]
Eat me, Yawn! |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 12:51:01 PM EDT
[#32]
I think in the truest sense he was a Patriot, not a hero. I personally think that a hero is defined by the people who witnessed his actions.
For me, any guy who is married......has children......and can still knowingly go into combat, well that makes him at the very least unique. |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 12:59:36 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: [Hero's come from all walks of life. As far as a CIB goes. I personally know a guy who never left Ft. Bragg but got a CIB for Operation Urgent Fury (The invasion of Grenada). When you start asking who's a hero around here, it usually brings out all of the key board commando's so just prepare yourself to be pissed off. Sorry dude, no go. You don't get a CIB unless you are grunt who serves in a combat zone. They sadly watered down the requirement of .90 days time in country for Grenada, but they didn't pervert the CIB that badly. |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 1:04:45 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Hero or not, he was DOING HIS JOB to protect our rights, defend freedom, and make the world a safer place. Ever wonder where the inmates who had been searched and secured suddenly got grenades and weapons from? Spann and the other CIA ghoul were torturing prisioners by dousing them with kerosene or lamp fliud and lighting it. Apparently this was enjoyed a great deal by Spann and the other CIA guy, but not so much by the captured soldiers or by the SF guys. Word has it the SF guys, who tend to be decent in that they uphold the code of the honored enemy when they can, chucked some necessary escape "tools" over the wall and then pulled back to let the Afghanis do their thing which they did. Unfortunately the Afghanis stuck around and tried to watse everyone, so the SF guys went ahead and restored order. This is 3rd hand, so I don't know how good the info is, but it does gel. There were also brief reports that Spann was torturing trussed up captives that were quickly quashed. We can't have our "heroes" being shown in a proper light now can we? We are the good guys, no matter who we torture and kill. |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 1:19:22 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Ever wonder where the inmates who had been searched and secured suddenly got grenades and weapons from? Spann and the other CIA ghoul were torturing prisioners by dousing them with kerosene or lamp fliud and lighting it. Apparently this was enjoyed a great deal by Spann and the other CIA guy, but not so much by the captured soldiers or by the SF guys. Word has it the SF guys, who tend to be decent in that they uphold the code of the honored enemy when they can, chucked some necessary escape "tools" over the wall and then pulled back to let the Afghanis do their thing which they did. Unfortunately the Afghanis stuck around and tried to watse everyone, so the SF guys went ahead and restored order. This is 3rd hand, so I don't know how good the info is, but it does gel. There were also brief reports that Spann was torturing trussed up captives that were quickly quashed. We can't have our "heroes" being shown in a proper light now can we? We are the good guys, no matter who we torture and kill. That's absurd. Any facts to back this up with? Sounds real fishy to me. I find it hard to believe that our own SF troops would rearm those that were trying to kill them before they were captured....Personally, I think they got the weapons from thier fellow Afghans who were guarding them (Strictly my opinion). |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 1:53:50 PM EDT
[#36]
In one sense, I think every American that puts himself in harm's way to protect the rest of us is a hero.
Spann died fighting for us, and I consider him a hero. |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 2:11:29 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Quoted: [Hero's come from all walks of life. As far as a CIB goes. I personally know a guy who never left Ft. Bragg but got a CIB for Operation Urgent Fury (The invasion of Grenada). When you start asking who's a hero around here, it usually brings out all of the key board commando's so just prepare yourself to be pissed off. Sorry dude, no go. You don't get a CIB unless you are grunt who serves in a combat zone. They sadly watered down the requirement of .90 days time in country for Grenada, but they didn't pervert the CIB that badly. Sorry dude, it's a go I heard it from his own lips. He was B Co. 1/508th PIR. 82nd AB. Yes, awards can and do get "perverted". I spent 4 years in the USMC and another 4 in the National Guard and saw it happen several times. |
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Posted: 7/19/2002 2:37:00 PM EDT
[#38]
This man volunteered and gave his life in defense of ours. That to me makes him a hero. A medal means exactly shit. There are thousands of vet's that never get a deserved medal for their actions.
Are any of you willing to tell his children..."Sorry daddy wasn't a hero, he was just doing his job." For the record his wife was also in the intellegence field and is preparing to go back to work to make ends meet. mike |
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